305 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Supernallaw wrote...

I had originally not had a problem with the dialogue wheel in mass effect and DA2 but after starting to play DA:O, I realized how inferior it really is.  There are a couple reasons I believe this.  In DA:O, the list of dialogue choices allowed me to pick the sentence I would like to actually say.  The results would be sometimes clear, but often I would not know ahead of time what the responses would be.  Many times, the dialogue options would not simply go into an obvious "right or wrong" pattern but would flesh out to build character personalities.  The difference when using a dialogue wheel is quite obvious because all options are either inquisitive to uncover information or have a good/neutral/evil alignment.  In mass effect and DA2, I found myself simply builiding an evil character and only selecting the bottom choice every time.  This is much less enjoyable, in my opinion, compared to actually reading the options and selecting the response I would actually want to say in my character's situation.

However, even if I wanted to play DA2 and ME like DA:O by choosing a response I liked, it would not be possible because all the dialogue options are simplified to 1-3 word descriptions.  Sometimes these are accurate summaries, but MANY times I would choose a dialogue option and then be baffled about what my character was actually saying.  The dialogue wheel makes the choices more confusing, and forces alignment to be either good/neutral/evil whereas the dialogue options allowed for much more complex character development.

To give a brief example of this without spoiling parts of DA:O, in Alistair's character quest to meet someone, he is greeted strangely by the person and the player is allowed to choose a way to respond.  None of these responses could be properly labeled with an alignment because the situation is complex and there is no way to plan Alistair's reactions to your response choice.  This is an example of how much more complex the dialogue options can be without the dialogue wheel and it is times like these that I appreciate not being forced to use one and only select dialogue based on its orientation on the wheel.

While I won't deny that the wheel needs to go, I don't think some people (not saying you Supernallaw) realize that in DA:O you did have diplomatic, wise-ass, and very direct a-hole type options.

Example being when you meet Cailan:

"Ho there friend, might I know your name?"

Option A) I am ______, your Majesty
Option Can we skip the introductions? It's been a long trip.
Option C) You are no king of mine, human lord (obviously for non-humans. I don't remember what Option C was for humans.
Option C?

People also don't realize investigate options were present. They act like DA2 put them there and DA:O didn't have them.

[Dragoonlordz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

People also don't realize investigate options were present. They act like DA2 put them there and DA:O didn't have them.

The fact is you never knew which were investigate options which means for at least me I took a vast amount more care in picking things I wanted to say instead of 'blatent investigate options' making the whole thing nothing more than a chore or tick list of things that can clickclickclick without having any impact on story progression or ending a conversation. The DAO version made me think more about what I was saying and how important the order in which I chose to say things, this for me is a million times more fun and interesting personally.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 04 mai 2011 - 11:22 .

[nicethugbert]

The hinted text with icons, i.e. the "dialog wheel", gives me an extra layer of surprise which I enjoy. So, no, I do not want to see it go.

I do not play these games to pretend I am my avatar having an out of body experience. An interactive movie experience with surprises, action, dialog, and choices is what I prefer.

I do not feel immersed in the game just because I know exactly what I will say. I feel bored instead.

[2late2die]

To the OP, while you bring up some excellent points, you make one crucial mistake. You argument is based on the assumption that BioWare wants to create a better game, with deeper story and more meaningful choices that require more thought, consideration and participation from the players. Unfortunately, DA2 and recent comments in regards to ME3's delay make it ubundantly clear that EA and BioWare are only interested in creating a game that sells more copies, and if that means sacrificing the very elements that made the original great (and the very things we consider to be the elements of a good game) then so be it.

There's an expression in Russian that basically says "hope dies last". So, I still hope that something will change, I still hope that ME3 will surprise me and that DA3 will be a worthy sequel, but it's only a small sliver of hope, one that's getting smaller by the day.

[Sussurus]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

People also don't realize investigate options were present. They act like DA2 put them there and DA:O didn't have them.

The fact is you never knew which were investigate options which means for at least me I took a vast amunt more care in picking things I wanted to say instead of 'blatent investigate options' making the whole thing nothing more than a chore or tick list of things that can clickclickclick without having any impact on story progression or ending a conversation. The DAO version made me think more about what I was saying and how important the order in which I chose to say things, this for me is a million times more fun and interesting personally.

It's slightly odd, I too realise it's personal preference that seems to be driving this issue.
How it makes us feel, or how deep it makes us think about our choices.
Myself I tended to find looking at every choice open and in long form more distracting.
As I knew exactly where each would lead, what the intent was and knew there would be no deviation or suprise.
It made me think I had to pick the best option as they had presented it to me.

Take out the fact that DA:2 choices generally are going to lead only to one outcome.
You don't have to click, click and always the same path.
You can do so, but not all the options are going to be in character if you do.

I think many are just sticking to a colour as they feel that is a "role", but it's not that simple.
There are often many charming / witty responses that at the time you use them are worse than an agressive one.
Often the agressive path may be the right thing to do, as it serves a greater good.
The diplomatic path may make you sound condenscending.

If you removed the icons and colours it's not a huge leap from DA:O.
Ignore the linear story, don't game for the best personality, don't look for the best dialogue.
Just look at the context of the situation, think what your character would try to say.
Take a minute reading the paraphrases then go with what feels right.
If the spoken dialogue suprises you and npc's react differently just explore how you feel.

Modifié par Sussurus, 04 mai 2011 - 11:38 .

[Zem_]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
I think your misunderstanding what is mean't by third and first person playing in RPGs which is being talked about here as opposed to first and third person (camera/perspective) gameplay mechanics.

And I think you didn't read the post I was replying to.  Oops.

[hobbit of the shire]

I hate the dialogue wheel. Half of the time I choose an option, what I say isn't want I intended (what say you add an "oops, undo" button on the wheel? LOL). We basically lose all subtleties in the language. I'd very much prefer full dialogues (or at least enough text so that I have a good feeling what the character is going to say). And bring back the [Intention] cues. [Sarcastic], [Joke], [Laugh], whatever. Now it's basically, be a sweetheart, be an ass, or be a smart alec at the wrong place/time. Humans don't have only 3 emotions.

[Longblade]

this is an interesting discussion...however, i do not think we will ever see another game as deep and as good as Origins was...how sad. saying that, i do enjoy DA2--for what it is.

[Zem_]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
I tell you how I experience third person view (you quote that) and that somehow triggers you to tell me how you experience first person view and that has to indicate that my viewpoint is wrong?

Uh... I didn't say that you were "wrong".

Then you tell me that what I like about Oblivion's view switching is somehow wrong. Erm... Interesting.

I suppose it would be if I had actually said this.   I must commend you on your imagination however.

You either don't understand me or you do not want to understand me.

Or... you expressed an opinion about camera perspectives and... I expressed a contrary opinion.

Both are fine. But is there some underlying problem, Zem_? Please tell me. Do you have a problem with me? You give the impression that you somehow get angry or irritated because of how I experience games. That is not healthy. Really. If you have problems with my opinion then just take a deep breath, count to 10 and read the next post.

/boggle

[AngryFrozenWater]

To zem_: In a post later Draggonlordz had to explain to you what the difference is between first and third person view. That gives an indication how clear your post was. If you have any issues with me then take them to PM. If not then I suggest that you quit responding to me.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 mai 2011 - 04:07 .

[erynnar]

Zjarcal wrote...

erynnar wrote...
Exactly! It really does just come down to personal pref. I totally respect others who felt the silent one is not as immersive. I was just wondering if those that felt that way felt that way because they don't like to imagine a voice and personality (which is fine, nothing wrong with that) or is it because the Warden didn't have appropriate expressions. Would expressions make it better for those who disliked the non-voiced version. I think that is worth looking into, if BioWare would.

Better expressions for the Warden would've helped (provided they were fitting for the dialog you chose), but for me, a silent protagonist just feels jarring. It's not that I can't imagine a voice or my character having a personality (I do imagine all those things... A LOT), I just prefer to actually see it play out. It feels better to actually hear my character say "I love you" to her lover than just watching the back of her head as she leans in for a kiss after "saying it".

It's not a case of not wanting to imagine things. I imagine things for both my silent Warden and my voiced Hawke (or Shepard). After all, Bioware can't take into account all the things I would like for my character to do or say. But with a voiced PC, some of the basic stuff that I feel my character should be saying works out better.

erynnar wrote...
And neither did the creators who tried it out and found it broke immersion and people being able to be the Warden. Again for those that couldn't because of the non voice, was it really the no voice aspect or that the Warden had no lifelike expressions? I am very curious about that.

That's actually another thing. I keep hearing people say how they ARE the character in RPGs. I never do that and I don't even really understand the notion. When I roleplay my characters I'm roleplaying someone else, not me, so I don't need to feel like I am that character.

I love both my Warden and Hawke (and Shepard) as characters I created, but I don't need to feel like I am them. Sure, when I'm playing I get into their shoes and must view things from their perspective to properly roleplay, but even then, I don't think to myself "okay, now I'm Dana Cousland", instead I just think "well, what would Dana do?".

As long as the game allows me to roleplay according to the personalities I've created for them, that's enough for me. A voice doesn't get in the way of that.

Ah, interesting Z! Thanks for sharing. I feel the opposite. I do want to be my character. I want to feel as if I am in the world.  I guess, it's like when I read a book. I am in that world. If that makes any sense?  And seeing the back of my Warden's head after she says it doesn't bother me.

It is really neat to see the reasons why. I like having insight into people's impressions that are different from my own. I see where you are coming from. I just feel the opposite. ROFL! So it is down to preferences. 

The other thing is I have trouble making a different person to go with the voice. I have to make the same face, because that voice belongs to her. Another problem I have. But alas, I wish there was a  way to satisfy both groups. Because really, it is just preference. Someone is always going to be disappointed.

[neppakyo]

erynnar wrote...

Ah, interesting Z! Thanks for sharing. I feel the opposite. I do want to be my character. I want to feel as if I am in the world.  I guess, it's like when I read a book. I am in that world. If that makes any sense?  And seeing the back of my Warden's head after she says it doesn't bother me.

It is really neat to see the reasons why. I like having insight into people's impressions that are different from my own. I see where you are coming from. I just feel the opposite. ROFL! So it is down to preferences. 

The other thing is I have trouble making a different person to go with the voice. I have to make the same face, because that voice belongs to her. Another problem I have. But alas, I wish there was a  way to satisfy both groups. Because really, it is just preference. Someone is always going to be disappointed.

Im quite the same. I always roleplay my character this way, probably from years of NWN!/NWN2 persistant worlds, where you make a character up, name, and give it a backstory and immerse yourself in the created world.

And I do read a ton of books. I think I suggested to you before to get L.E Modesitt jr books, The parafaith war and the octagonal raven.

[erynnar]

neppakyo wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Ah, interesting Z! Thanks for sharing. I feel the opposite. I do want to be my character. I want to feel as if I am in the world.  I guess, it's like when I read a book. I am in that world. If that makes any sense?  And seeing the back of my Warden's head after she says it doesn't bother me.

It is really neat to see the reasons why. I like having insight into people's impressions that are different from my own. I see where you are coming from. I just feel the opposite. ROFL! So it is down to preferences. 

The other thing is I have trouble making a different person to go with the voice. I have to make the same face, because that voice belongs to her. Another problem I have. But alas, I wish there was a  way to satisfy both groups. Because really, it is just preference. Someone is always going to be disappointed.

Im quite the same. I always roleplay my character this way, probably from years of NWN!/NWN2 persistant worlds, where you make a character up, name, and give it a backstory and immerse yourself in the created world.

And I do read a ton of books. I think I suggested to you before to get L.E Modesitt jr books, The parafaith war and the octagonal raven.

You did, and I wrote that down! ROFL!  Thanks!

I guess I am a book reader rather than a movie watcher. And I sometimes wonder if this is part of it.

[neppakyo]

erynnar wrote...

You did, and I wrote that down! ROFL!  Thanks!

I guess I am a book reader rather than a movie watcher. And I sometimes wonder if this is part of it.

Me too! I'll happily spend 6 hours straight reading then flick the TV on.

I do admit, I love my sci-fi and fantasy movies. I am looking forward to Thor. (read the comics as a wee lad)

[erynnar]

neppakyo wrote...

erynnar wrote...

You did, and I wrote that down! ROFL!  Thanks!

I guess I am a book reader rather than a movie watcher. And I sometimes wonder if this is part of it.

Me too! I'll happily spend 6 hours straight reading then flick the TV on.

I do admit, I love my sci-fi and fantasy movies. I am looking forward to Thor. (read the comics as a wee lad)

Oh I can't wait for the Thor movie! read them as a wee lass...

[fightright2]

erynnar wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

erynnar wrote...
Exactly! It really does just come down to personal pref. I totally respect others who felt the silent one is not as immersive. I was just wondering if those that felt that way felt that way because they don't like to imagine a voice and personality (which is fine, nothing wrong with that) or is it because the Warden didn't have appropriate expressions. Would expressions make it better for those who disliked the non-voiced version. I think that is worth looking into, if BioWare would.

Better expressions for the Warden would've helped (provided they were fitting for the dialog you chose), but for me, a silent protagonist just feels jarring. It's not that I can't imagine a voice or my character having a personality (I do imagine all those things... A LOT), I just prefer to actually see it play out. It feels better to actually hear my character say "I love you" to her lover than just watching the back of her head as she leans in for a kiss after "saying it".

It's not a case of not wanting to imagine things. I imagine things for both my silent Warden and my voiced Hawke (or Shepard). After all, Bioware can't take into account all the things I would like for my character to do or say. But with a voiced PC, some of the basic stuff that I feel my character should be saying works out better.

erynnar wrote...
And neither did the creators who tried it out and found it broke immersion and people being able to be the Warden. Again for those that couldn't because of the non voice, was it really the no voice aspect or that the Warden had no lifelike expressions? I am very curious about that.

That's actually another thing. I keep hearing people say how they ARE the character in RPGs. I never do that and I don't even really understand the notion. When I roleplay my characters I'm roleplaying someone else, not me, so I don't need to feel like I am that character.

I love both my Warden and Hawke (and Shepard) as characters I created, but I don't need to feel like I am them. Sure, when I'm playing I get into their shoes and must view things from their perspective to properly roleplay, but even then, I don't think to myself "okay, now I'm Dana Cousland", instead I just think "well, what would Dana do?".

As long as the game allows me to roleplay according to the personalities I've created for them, that's enough for me. A voice doesn't get in the way of that.

Ah, interesting Z! Thanks for sharing. I feel the opposite. I do want to be my character. I want to feel as if I am in the world.  I guess, it's like when I read a book. I am in that world. If that makes any sense?  And seeing the back of my Warden's head after she says it doesn't bother me.

It is really neat to see the reasons why. I like having insight into people's impressions that are different from my own. I see where you are coming from. I just feel the opposite. ROFL! So it is down to preferences. 

The other thing is I have trouble making a different person to go with the voice. I have to make the same face, because that voice belongs to her. Another problem I have. But alas, I wish there was a  way to satisfy both groups. Because really, it is just preference. Someone is always going to be disappointed.

I'm with you on wanting to be my character. It's total first person immersion for me.

And your right on the voice. It takes away from making multiple characters for numerous playthroughs. You go through the process to tweak what you want them to look like for originality and individuality only to hear the same voice from your previous character.

[Zjarcal]

erynnar wrote...
The other thing is I have trouble making a different person to go with the voice. I have to make the same face, because that voice belongs to her. 

That's actually a problem I do share with you... hearing the same voice coming from a different face just feels WRONG to me. 

Fortunately for me, I have this quirk that I can only create one character in any RPG I play. The minute I get attached to that character and the relationships built between that character and her companions, I just can't play as anyone else. Sure, I change her class for different playthroughs (and may tweak details or events about her background to justify a reason to roleplay slightly differently), but it's the same character always.

So this little quirk of mine actually solves the voice problem for me. :happy:

neppakyo wrote...
Im quite the same. I always roleplay my character this way, probably from years of NWN!/NWN2 persistant worlds,where you make a character up, name, and give it a backstory and immerse yourself in the created world.

Well, I do give my characters a backstory (I even create other characters present in their backstories just to flesh things out), I just don't feel like I am them when playing.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 05 mai 2011 - 07:02 .

[fightright2]

Book reader here as well. I can't wait for Thor and wonder what they will do for the Avengers movie when they all come together! I hope they don't leave out the Wasp.

[KLUME777]

I hope we can go back to SP and dialogue tree in DA3.

Dialogue wheel works well in Mass Effect, but it definitely does not belong in Dragon Age.

[Zjarcal]

KLUME777 wrote...

Dialogue wheel works well in Mass Effect, but it definitely does not belong in Dragon Age.

I have to ask, is the disdain for the dialogue wheel because of the paraphrases or because of the wheel as an interface itself?

[Merced652]

Zjarcal wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Dialogue wheel works well in Mass Effect, but it definitely does not belong in Dragon Age.

I have to ask, is the disdain for the dialogue wheel because of the paraphrases or because of the wheel as an interface itself?

For me its a combination of voiced protag where i have no option to choose what his voice actually is, the paraphrase system, and the need for a intent system(though this is a necessity given voiced protag).

[Zjarcal]

Merced652 wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Dialogue wheel works well in Mass Effect, but it definitely does not belong in Dragon Age.

I have to ask, is the disdain for the dialogue wheel because of the paraphrases or because of the wheel as an interface itself?

For me its a combination of voiced protag where i have no option to choose what his voice actually is, the paraphrase system, and the need for a intent system(though this is a necessity given voiced protag).

I see. So it's more about what the wheel represents rather than the wheel itself. That's what I always wondered. If people just hated the wheel itself... poor wheel. 

I guess if we had a silent protagonist and no paraphrases, but the dialogue was still presented in a wheel interface, that wouldn't be an issue then?

Modifié par Zjarcal, 05 mai 2011 - 07:33 .

[Wonderllama4]

The dialogue wheel is perfect and should not be changed.

[lizzbee]

Zjarcal wrote...

I see. So it's more about what the wheel represents rather than the wheel itself. That's what I always wondered. If people just hated the wheel itself... poor wheel. 

I guess if we had a silent protagonist and no paraphrases, but the dialogue was still presented in a wheel interface, that wouldn't be an issue then?

Personally, yes and no, and I'm one of those weirdos who prefers the silent protagonist.  What drives me nuts with Dragon Age style dialog is the "Investigate" part of the wheel.  It works well enough with Mass Effect, just because the conversational style is shorter and more pithy, but characters are much more florid in the Dragon Age universe.  I've gone on "investigate" tangents for the fun of it, only to head back to the main part of the conversation and have Hawke's response make no sense at all to me since I forgot what the opening conversational salvo was.  It just feels disjointed and strange.  If you don't bother "investigating," the conversations flow reasonably well, if you can get past the often inaccurate paraphrasing.