305 réponses à ce sujet

[Sussurus]

They investigate options tended to even make me annoyed at times.
It was that certain characters had the investigate options that would lead the conversation on.
Then change the icon on the choice you were going to pick, but kept the same line that you would have said if you'd just ignored the investigate.

Which conflicted and jarred with what was / had been said.
Speak to the Dalish keeper first time, go with Charming... but first ask her all questions via investigate.
The words you speak make no sense, it's as if your pc is talking sdrawkcab.

I think the wheel or a paraphrased system is to my liking, but certain aspects in DA:2 needed polish.

Modifié par Sussurus, 05 mai 2011 - 12:21 .

[Lumikki]

Sorry, but I disagree with OP.

Dialogs system difference is just visual presentation, list or hierarchy tree. There is actually more "options" in DA2 style dialog system than DAO had. How developers will used them is other question. Did you example notice that sometimes, when choosing left side choise as more information options, it caused right side choises also to change?

Point is: Dialog wheel or list doesn't matter, it's just visual, it's how developers will use them, what matters.

Modifié par Lumikki, 05 mai 2011 - 10:28 .

[AudioEpics]

I think the dialogue wheel can certainly be enhanced but it should stay. We're not quite there yet but I wouldn't want to see them abandon it. I agree sometimes the paraphrases don't work. DA2's symbols helped but it's still not 100%. For example, I was talking to Anders and he was sort of coming on to me and he asked: "Am I making you uncomfortable?"
There was a broken heart respone saying "Yes, you are", a heart response saying something like "oh no, not at all" and another one that said "It's... unexpected". I thought the broken heart one sounded a bit rude but I didn't want to flirt with him either. So I chose the "it's unexpected" one and then Hawke sounded like a tease. It was awkward:) That made me realize in the current system the symbols seem to take precedence over the paraphrazed text. I would like it the other way around so as not to go into Fable territory. Not that I despise Fable or anything, but that wouldn't be very Biowarish.
Also, I don't mind a little bit of redundancy. Sometimes in Mass Effect it made me chuckle when the text said something like "okay" and then the voiced performance is "alright". They don't need to be too afraid of the redundancy. I'm fine with some answers coming out exactly as written.

[Zem_]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

To zem_: In a post later Draggonlordz had to explain to you what the difference is between first and third person view. That gives an indication how clear your post was. If you have any issues with me then take them to PM. If not then I suggest that you quit responding to me.

Dragonloordz thought we were talking about roleplaying perspective.  You were clearly talking about camera perspective, which is the only kind of "switch" that Oblivion has.  You said you liked it.  I said I didn't like it.  It was that simple.  This is not a personal attack.  I can't help it if you are unable to understand that.  Nor am I going to bother trying to explain it to you any further.

[erynnar]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

People also don't realize investigate options were present. They act like DA2 put them there and DA:O didn't have them.

The fact is you never knew which were investigate options which means for at least me I took a vast amount more care in picking things I wanted to say instead of 'blatent investigate options' making the whole thing nothing more than a chore or tick list of things that can clickclickclick without having any impact on story progression or ending a conversation. The DAO version made me think more about what I was saying and how important the order in which I chose to say things, this for me is a million times more fun and interesting personally.

This^ I wasn't that DAO didn't have the Happy, Sneezy, and Douchy options. But you didn't have as much hand holding. I had to think about it in a good way. DA2 I felt I had to think about it only because I wasn't sure what my Hawke was really going to say (which was uncomfortable to say the least).  LIke have a five year old and you never know what is going to pop out of their mouths in front of company.

[neppakyo]

erynnar wrote...

This^ I wasn't that DAO didn't have the Happy, Sneezy, and Douchy options. But you didn't have as much hand holding. I had to think about it in a good way. DA2 I felt I had to think about it only because I wasn't sure what my Hawke was really going to say (which was uncomfortable to say the least).  LIke have a five year old and you never know what is going to pop out of their mouths in front of company.

Damn I love your analogies, erynnar. Happy, Sneezy, Douchy. *snort*

And I agree. Too many "WTF?!" moments when you choose something and get a complete opposite. Did cause quite a few hurr durr moments. I was quite happy carefully reading and picking what I wanted to say in DA:O.

In conclusion, the paraphrasing sucked balls in DA2. ME2 was a superior job in this department. I'm still curious about one of the bioware people (was it ray) saying they tried the ME2 wheel in DA, and it didn't work... then did it for DA2.

[erynnar]

neppakyo wrote...

erynnar wrote...

This^ I wasn't that DAO didn't have the Happy, Sneezy, and Douchy options. But you didn't have as much hand holding. I had to think about it in a good way. DA2 I felt I had to think about it only because I wasn't sure what my Hawke was really going to say (which was uncomfortable to say the least).  LIke have a five year old and you never know what is going to pop out of their mouths in front of company.

Damn I love your analogies, erynnar. Happy, Sneezy, Douchy. *snort*

And I agree. Too many "WTF?!" moments when you choose something and get a complete opposite. Did cause quite a few hurr durr moments. I was quite happy carefully reading and picking what I wanted to say in DA:O.

In conclusion, the paraphrasing sucked balls in DA2. ME2 was a superior job in this department. I'm still curious about one of the bioware people (was it ray) saying they tried the ME2 wheel in DA, and it didn't work... then did it for DA2.

ROFL! Well that's how I always thought of the personality choices. And it was both good doctors who mentioned it in an article. Where is DragooLordz with his sig line when you need him?

[Dragoonlordz]

erynnar wrote...

ROFL! Well that's how I always thought of the personality choices. And it was both good doctors who mentioned it in an article. Where is DragooLordz with his sig line when you need him?

I saw the dragon 'symbol' in the night sky summoning me to the forums. Alas I have arrived.

Is this the item you wished for?

So is Dragon Age: Origins' dialogue approach a step backward when compared to Mass Effect's shiny new system? We caught up with BioWare co-founders Drs. Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk after their GDC Canada 2009 BioWare keynote address to follow up on that question and get their thoughts on why the two approaches were chosen for the respective games, a topic they touched on briefly in their speech.

Muzyka and Zeschuk say the difference in the two games' dialogue systems is one of perspective, literally. After fielding questions about Dragon Age's approach at GDC 2009 in San Francisco earlier this year, the two came to the conclusion that the reason Mass Effect's dialogue system doesn't work well with Dragon Age (they tried it) is because the latter is first-person and the former is third-person. Change perspectives, and the entire game changes with it.

In Mass Effect, a third-person game, you take a character and mold them into a new person, directing the character rather than fully inhabiting her or him. As you play, you're able to watch that directed person act in the game, speaking with the voice you have helped shape. But in Dragon Age, you don't watch the conversation because you are the conversation. After the success of Mass Effect, Muzyka and Zeschuk say they thought about applying the dialogue system to all their games but soon realized that different experiences call for different approaches.

"We talked about this for months, and we did all kinds of analysis," says Zeschuk. "Really we see it as a step sideways. It's actually about presenting different flavors of games." 

"It's that little bit of surprise because you just don't feel like you're in complete control of it, whereas in Dragon Age, you are that character. That is you. You're doing it. Everything is you," says Zeschuk.

It's that subtle but distinct difference that makes Mass Effect's dialogue system a poor fit for Dragon Age: Origins, Muzyka and Zeschuk say, and it's a choice they think players will find natural when they finally get behind the controls. Additionally, the Dragon Age system, because it's not tied to a relatively small graphic with a maximum of five or six choices, can offer far more conversation possibilities than its third-person cousin.

"For those four to six choices you get, there are probably four to six times more you don't see that would be totally different depending on your origin choice, your choices up to that point in the game, whether you're male or female, and a variety of other things," says Muzyka. "It's about the role you're playing. Are you playing a set role, or are you playing a role you've defined yourself?"

Okay now off I go again back to work, au revoir.  ~flys off into the night sky~

[Sabriana]

erynnar wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

People also don't realize investigate options were present. They act like DA2 put them there and DA:O didn't have them.

The fact is you never knew which were investigate options which means for at least me I took a vast amount more care in picking things I wanted to say instead of 'blatent investigate options' making the whole thing nothing more than a chore or tick list of things that can clickclickclick without having any impact on story progression or ending a conversation. The DAO version made me think more about what I was saying and how important the order in which I chose to say things, this for me is a million times more fun and interesting personally.

This^ I wasn't that DAO didn't have the Happy, Sneezy, and Douchy options. But you didn't have as much hand holding. I had to think about it in a good way. DA2 I felt I had to think about it only because I wasn't sure what my Hawke was really going to say (which was uncomfortable to say the least).  LIke have a five year old and you never know what is going to pop out of their mouths in front of company.

This is the funniest, most on-the-spot post I've ever read. Thank you Erynnar, I needed that laugh.

And Dragoonlordz has a dragon-signal? I must remember that, I too have encountered occasions where I thought "Why is there never a Dragoonlordz around when I need one?"

[Zem_]

neppakyo wrote...

In conclusion, the paraphrasing sucked balls in DA2. ME2 was a superior job in this department. I'm still curious about one of the bioware people (was it ray) saying they tried the ME2 wheel in DA, and it didn't work... then did it for DA2.

Because they hate their players and want to destroy all that is good in the world?

That, or they changed their minds.  It happens.  Not sure I buy the argument that it made sense in Mass Effect because you were directing Shepard and not inhabiting the character.  I don't see how this is any different that choosing an Origin in DAO and being told, "Okay you are (insert first name) Cousland, son of Bryce Cousland, Teyrn of Highever.  This over here is your mom, your brother, his wife and kid, and your dog.  Got it?  This is where you live.  Here's a few words about your history.   Oh... and we've taken the liberty of dressing you... now get in there and INHABIT!"

Riiiight.

[Zjarcal]

erynnar wrote...
This^ I wasn't that DAO didn't have the Happy, Sneezy, and Douchy options. But you didn't have as much hand holding. I had to think about it in a good way.

I'm sorry but I don't get this.

What was so hard about realizing which one was the polite, snarky, or aggresive option in Origins? It was obvious just from reading them and they even shared the same positioning (top - nice,  middle - snarky, bottom - rude).

The icons might make it even more obvious, but it was already TOO obvious to begin with.

Sussurus wrote...

They investigate options tended to even make me annoyed at times.
It was that certain characters had the investigate options that would lead the conversation on.
Then change the icon on the choice you were going to pick, but kept the same line that you would have said if you'd just ignored the investigate.

Which conflicted and jarred with what was / had been said.
Speak to the Dalish keeper first time, go with Charming... but first ask her all questions via investigate.
The words you speak make no sense, it's as if your pc is talking sdrawkcab.

I think the wheel or a paraphrased system is to my liking, but certain aspects in DA:2 needed polish.

This I definitely agree with. Choosing the investigate options always ended up causing the dialogue to feel somewhat disjointed.

BUT, this is nothing new really. Choosing the "investigate" options (even if they weren't placed in a separete menu) in Origins or any other RPG has the same effect.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 05 mai 2011 - 09:57 .

[Curlain]

Zem_ wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

In conclusion, the paraphrasing sucked balls in DA2. ME2 was a superior job in this department. I'm still curious about one of the bioware people (was it ray) saying they tried the ME2 wheel in DA, and it didn't work... then did it for DA2.

Because they hate their players and want to destroy all that is good in the world?

That, or they changed their minds.  It happens.  Not sure I buy the argument that it made sense in Mass Effect because you were directing Shepard and not inhabiting the character.  I don't see how this is any different that choosing an Origin in DAO and being told, "Okay you are (insert first name) Cousland, son of Bryce Cousland, Teyrn of Highever.  This over here is your mom, your brother, his wife and kid, and your dog.  Got it?  This is where you live.  Here's a few words about your history.   Oh... and we've taken the liberty of dressing you... now get in there and INHABIT!"

Riiiight.

Well whether you buy the argument or not, it was one that was 'brought' by BioWare themselves (just look at Dragonlordz post a few places above) when they concluded the the convo wheel and paraphrase suited a third person rp experience and didn't suit the first person style they were going with in DA.

In terms of your above example, in ME you were supplied with a largely pre-developed in Shepard, and the game's style encourages you to direct him/her influencing them in third person rping rather then truly 'being' Shepard as such.  DA you didn;t have a pre-set character, just an Origin where a character you create and develop comes from, coming up yourself with who your character is.  The silent protagonist/dialogue tree then helps encourage you to inhabit the character in first person pring, in the senario you outlined above you would have already have a character in mind going into your Origin (shy/forward/loud, are they witty or social aweward, honest and straight talking or devious, a noble snob or someone understanding of the people, and so on and so forth) so of it might come to you as you play through the Origin.  In anycase, it was intended to encourage first person rping as the quote shows

Modifié par Curlain, 05 mai 2011 - 09:55 .

[Rockpopple]

Zem_ wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

In conclusion, the paraphrasing sucked balls in DA2. ME2 was a superior job in this department. I'm still curious about one of the bioware people (was it ray) saying they tried the ME2 wheel in DA, and it didn't work... then did it for DA2.

Because they hate their players and want to destroy all that is good in the world?

That, or they changed their minds.  It happens.  Not sure I buy the argument that it made sense in Mass Effect because you were directing Shepard and not inhabiting the character.  I don't see how this is any different that choosing an Origin in DAO and being told, "Okay you are (insert first name) Cousland, son of Bryce Cousland, Teyrn of Highever.  This over here is your mom, your brother, his wife and kid, and your dog.  Got it?  This is where you live.  Here's a few words about your history.   Oh... and we've taken the liberty of dressing you... now get in there and INHABIT!"

Riiiight.

Zjarcal wrote...

erynnar wrote...
This^ I wasn't that DAO didn't have the Happy, Sneezy, and Douchy options. But you didn't have as much hand holding. I had to think about it in a good way.

I'm sorry but I don't get this.

What was so hard about realizing which one was the polite, snarky, or aggresive option in Origins? It was obvious just from reading them and they even shared the same positioning (top - nice,  middle - snarky, bottom - rude).

The icons might make it even more obvious, but it was already TOO obvious to begin with.

You two: nail? Hitting it.

It's really all up to personal preference. Nothing really to do with any inherent shortcoming in either system. You either prefer a voiced protagonist, or you don't, or you don't care either way. 

It's also up to how you choose to play your RPG. In Origins it is not inherent for a player to feel like they are "becoming" that character, rather than just "playing" or "controlling" that character. Some people felt that way, and some people didn't. That's less of the function of the game and more of how the player experiences it. 

Modifié par Rockpopple, 05 mai 2011 - 10:03 .

[Zjarcal]

Zem_ wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

In conclusion, the paraphrasing sucked balls in DA2. ME2 was a superior job in this department. I'm still curious about one of the bioware people (was it ray) saying they tried the ME2 wheel in DA, and it didn't work... then did it for DA2.

Because they hate their players and want to destroy all that is good in the world?

That, or they changed their minds.  It happens.  Not sure I buy the argument that it made sense in Mass Effect because you were directing Shepard and not inhabiting the character.  I don't see how this is any different that choosing an Origin in DAO and being told, "Okay you are (insert first name) Cousland, son of Bryce Cousland, Teyrn of Highever.  This over here is your mom, your brother, his wife and kid, and your dog.  Got it?  This is where you live.  Here's a few words about your history.   Oh... and we've taken the liberty of dressing you... now get in there and INHABIT!"

Riiiight.

This is something else I agree with. I don't feel any difference between the individual origins from DAO than Hawke. Sure, Origins gave you several to choose from and I suppose that's what people miss, but Hawke is just as defined as any of the characters coming from the individual origins.

Rockpopple wrote...
It's really all up to personal preference. Nothing really to do with any inherent shortcoming in either system. You either prefer a voiced protagonist, or you don't, or you don't care either way. 

Yeah, that's realy it, personal preference.

[Dragoonlordz]

Zem_ wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

In conclusion, the paraphrasing sucked balls in DA2. ME2 was a superior job in this department. I'm still curious about one of the bioware people (was it ray) saying they tried the ME2 wheel in DA, and it didn't work... then did it for DA2.

Because they hate their players and want to destroy all that is good in the world?

That, or they changed their minds.  It happens.  Not sure I buy the argument that it made sense in Mass Effect because you were directing Shepard and not inhabiting the character.  I don't see how this is any different that choosing an Origin in DAO...

Just because you cannot comprehend it doesn't change the reality of it. You may not understand how a plane flys doesn't mean that they don't fly. Some people can't imagine possibilities but thats your own issue, lack of imagination and understanding. I am a first persona style RP gamer. I can see the clear difference between what is and what is not first or third person in games. My type of game is the former and others (yours apparently because you can't comphrend my way) makes you only play in third person.

DAO was first person and ME1/2 and DA2 are third person that is how they are designed. Most of the time third persona RP players tend to favor ME series and DA2 over DAO and they can't pin it down to why but list silent main protgantist as the main reason why they dislike DAO amongst other things (first persona attributes but they don't realise is one of many things that effect a first person/third person play style).

[Morroian]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Just because you cannot comprehend it doesn't change the reality of it. You may not understand how a plane flys doesn't mean that they don't fly. Some people can't imagine possibilities but thats your own issue, lack of imagination and understanding. I am a first persona style RP gamer. I can see the clear difference between what is and what is not first or third person in games. My type of game is the former and others (yours apparently because you can't comphrend my way) makes you only play in third person.

But a 3rd person play style does not preclude role playing.

[Morroian]

neppakyo wrote...

And I agree. Too many "WTF?!" moments when you choose something and get a complete opposite. Did cause quite a few hurr durr moments. I was quite happy carefully reading and picking what I wanted to say in DA:O.

In conclusion, the paraphrasing sucked balls in DA2. ME2 was a superior job in this department.

Mileage varies, I had more WTF moments in the ME series than in DA2 perhaps because of the intent icons.

[Dragoonlordz]

Morroian wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Just because you cannot comprehend it doesn't change the reality of it. You may not understand how a plane flys doesn't mean that they don't fly. Some people can't imagine possibilities but thats your own issue, lack of imagination and understanding. I am a first persona style RP gamer. I can see the clear difference between what is and what is not first or third person in games. My type of game is the former and others (yours apparently because you can't comphrend my way) makes you only play in third person.

But a 3rd person play style does not preclude role playing.

They are both role playing.

One puts yourself in the world, situations and position of the character using CC and silent voiced protaganist (voice in head as read applies your own voice to your character), backgrounds choices and personality attributes such as intelligence, cunning, perception etc. They pick dialogue options based on their own personality and what they would pick in that situation if you was in that position.

The other plays as though the character has it's own personality, they play as the puppeteer and assign alternative personailities to their characters that do not ressemble their own in real life.

Games designed for first persona style does not preclude third persona style players from doing so if they can get over the silent protaganist and few other things. However games designed for third persona style are vastly harder for first persona RP gamers to get into. Unfortuantly first persona style games are harder to come by and third persona is a dime a dozen. DAO added to my collection of first persona titles which is why I truly hoped DA2 would follow this trend being seporate in core principles to the ME series (third vs first), but they broke my heart and now we have 3 (third) and 1 (first) but instead of the (third) style being one series/franchise of ME they dropped that style into the sequel to a (first) type title DAO.  

I would have preffered they kept ME series as third and kept DA series as first. Both gamer types would have had game play style titles they love.  

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 05 mai 2011 - 10:25 .

[Persephone]

Zem_ wrote...


That, or they changed their minds.  It happens.  Not sure I buy the argument that it made sense in Mass Effect because you were directing Shepard and not inhabiting the character.  I don't see how this is any different that choosing an Origin in DAO and being told, "Okay you are (insert first name) Cousland, son of Bryce Cousland, Teyrn of Highever.  This over here is your mom, your brother, his wife and kid, and your dog.  Got it?  This is where you live.  Here's a few words about your history.   Oh... and we've taken the liberty of dressing you... now get in there and INHABIT!"

Pretty much this. I felt way more connected to my Lady Hawke than to any of my +20 Wardens. Except my Canon Warden & that's only because I dragged her into a fan fic and broke with her Super Warden who can do anything image in the story itself. My Wardens just feel so...detached now. I dunno why. But I'm getting back into DAO as I post this, my Amell finally made it past Ostagar & arrived back at the Tower.

[Persephone]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

The other plays as though the character has it's own personality, they play as the puppeteer and assign alternative personailities to their characters that do not ressemble their own in real life.

Gotta disagree there, sorry. My canon Lady Hawke (Mix of snarky/kind with an occasional bit of red here & there) was as close to my RL persona as it could possibly get. Not even my Canon Warden and (anti-) heroine of my very dilettante fan fic managed that.

[Dragoonlordz]

-double post-

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 05 mai 2011 - 10:31 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Persephone wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

The other plays as though the character has it's own personality, they play as the puppeteer and assign alternative personailities to their characters that do not ressemble their own in real life.

Gotta disagree there, sorry. My canon Lady Hawke (Mix of snarky/kind with an occasional bit of red here & there) was as close to my RL persona as it could possibly get. Not even my Canon Warden and (anti-) heroine of my very dilettante fan fic managed that.

Does she sound like you VO? does she look like you? Was all the dialogue options you picked based on what you would pick if was there or what your characters allocated persona would pick? Was you playing as Hawke or playing yourself? 

[Persephone]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

The other plays as though the character has it's own personality, they play as the puppeteer and assign alternative personailities to their characters that do not ressemble their own in real life.

Gotta disagree there, sorry. My canon Lady Hawke (Mix of snarky/kind with an occasional bit of red here & there) was as close to my RL persona as it could possibly get. Not even my Canon Warden and (anti-) heroine of my very dilettante fan fic managed that.

Does she sound like you VO? does she look like you? Was all the dialogue options you picked based on what you would pick if was there or what your characters allocated persona would pick? 

Does she sound like me? No. But I love her VO and her delivery is spot on.

Does she look like me? Heck, NO. Neither does my Warden, they are all WAY prettier than I can ever hope to be.

As for the last question: Resounding YES!:happy:

[Zjarcal]

Persephone wrote...
Does she look like me? Heck, NO. Neither does my Warden, they are all WAY prettier than I can ever hope to be.

And it's not like one couldn't try to make their character's face match their own.

[Dragoonlordz]

Persephone wrote...

Does she sound like me? No. But I love her VO and her delivery is spot on.

Does she look like me? Heck, NO. Neither does my Warden, they are all WAY prettier than I can ever hope to be.

As for the last question: Resounding YES!:happy:

You proved my point yourself. You played and enjoyed more someone elses voice, you create your characters based on someone else a ideological appearence one that is not you. The only thing you attributed to yourself was choices (this is a first person play style)  but because of the first two answers you are already playing as someone else by choice and preference.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 05 mai 2011 - 10:44 .