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[Addai]

digi_ronin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
For example, she herself wants out of the Tower as much as possible, but she's always trying to get other people back in.  The most egregious example being Aneirin, who was chased away by her, nearly killed by templars and is perfectly happy where he is- but she still tries to get him to go back.  The other being the Warden mage.  She thinks Grey Wardens are the saviors of humanity but she still wants the Warden to go back to the Circle.

To you it seems like she wants out of the tower?
Hm... what gave you that impression?

Irving's comments to her.  He says something like "you were never one to stay in the Tower."  Post-game, she doesn't want to go back, either.  In most endings she either stays at court or goes to Tevinter.

Only that spirit brought her back. A spirit of compassion, nonetheless. Being chosen by such a being says a lot about her personality.

It's a spirit of faith.  And we see with Anders @ DA2 what can happen to Fade spirits when they join with a human host.    There's a theory around the forums that it's actually a Pride demon.

There's indeed the icky detail about the Chantry sitting on their backs all the time, which I also hated. But hey, that's the only thing wrong about the Circle. And precisely what I changed at the end of the game by having Alistair grant the Circle independence. And bingo, with a single move you have a civilized, highly experienced, highly organized group of responsible mages, free to finally research some better ways than that silly and filthy blood magic concept. =)

There are a LOT of things wrong with the Circle.  Where to begin.  It's a huge topic.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 mai 2011 - 11:17 .

[digi_ronin]

Addai67 wrote...
Irving's comments to her.  He says something like "you were never one to stay in the Tower."  Post-game, she doesn't want to go back, either.  In most endings she either stays at court or goes to Tevinter.

Interesting aspect. I don't remember that line, but judging from her dialogue, she seemed to be quite content with the life she lived in the Circle.
Which isn't all too surprising considering that she held a position of authority and is something of a "Matron" personality in the first place. I for my part think that, while she does have a considerable amount of courage and can cope with adventuring, she actually loved spending her life tutoring those apprentices. Doesn't necessarily mean they loved getting tutored by her, of course. But hey, that's the classic dilemma of teachers.

It's a spirit of faith.  And we see with Anders @ DA2 what can happen to Fade spirits when they join with a human host. 

Hmm can't comment there, and I would ask to avoid spoilers for this. I'm still in the middle of Awakening and not sure when I'll venture into DA2. As for Anders, I just met him - and am still wondering hard whether or not I'm going to like him or hate him. He's walking a very thin line between slightly charming and utterly grating. But we'll see.=D

There's a theory around the forums that it's actually a Pride demon.

Ooooo, nice idea!
I would have loved to see some questline in DAO exploring/examining that possibility. Actually I had been hoping that the game would elaborate on her spirit companion at some point, ever since she mentioned that incident. No matter what the result would have been, it would have made for an excellent insight into Wynnes character.

There are a LOT of things wrong with the Circle.  Where to begin.  It's a huge topic.

I agree that they have their downsides. But I feel most of it comes from the Chantry meddling.

Some other things (tranquilizing/harrowing) are quite grueling, but although I dislike them, I also fail to see a better option there. Demon possession <is> the one curse that any mage organization in Thedas has to deal with - and in the light of how much crap happens once we have an abomination, going through those seems the only option. =(

That being said, I always found to the "ritual of tranquility" and its results to be utter bullcrap in terms of magic mechanics / as a plot device. Burning out a mages magic gift? Strange notion, but oh well, I'll buy it. But how does cutting them off from the fade make them emotionless vegetables? Just because they cannot dream? That somehow feels very  farfetched for me...

But  to get back to the Circle: they aren't perfect no doubt - but looking at the rest of what Thedas offers... Well, they seem to be the only viable option a civilized mage has (in terms of organized official Magery). And before Thedas ends up with a slew of backroom magic dabblers, chaotic neutral hedge wizards, neutral evil witches, chaotic evil blood mages... I'll rather go with the Circle.

(Yeah, I know my view is tinted by D&D concepts, but that's what I've been playing for years, so I can't shed my skin, there. ^^

Modifié par digi_ronin, 05 mai 2011 - 10:41 .

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

There are a LOT of things wrong with the Circle.  Where to begin.  It's a huge topic.

Of course, that's why Wynne wants the Warden to go back.  She thinks they could change things

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Addai67 wrote...

For example, she herself wants out of the Tower as much as possible, but she's always trying to get other people back in.  The most egregious example being Aneirin, who was chased away by her, nearly killed by templars and is perfectly happy where he is- but she still tries to get him to go back.  The other being the Warden mage.  She thinks Grey Wardens are the saviors of humanity but she still wants the Warden to go back to the Circle.  Hypocrisy is Wynne's biggest flaw IMO.  Presumption is another.

She wants them to go back because she thinks their experiences with the outside world can bring fresh perspective to the Tower and its policies. She believes the Tower needs new views and that the mage Warden and her Dalish apprentice could provide these. She doesn't like the idea of the Circle being insular and blind to what happens outside.

I don't think that's hypocrisy. It's not like she's going "Tra la la! I'll escape the Circle whenever I can because I like a good jaunt!" then pointing at every apostate and yelling "YOU! CIRCLE! DOOO IIIIITT!"

[flexxdk]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Or a third chance to kill her at the sacred ashes if you defile them.

At the cost of an unhardened Leliana leaving your party.

Even if Leliana is harded, you have to be very very VERY persuasive to not make her leave your party.

If she's with you when you defile the ashes, you WILL have to kill her too, unless she's hardened. Then you can intimidate her to stay in line.

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

There are a LOT of things wrong with the Circle.  Where to begin.  It's a huge topic.

Of course, that's why Wynne wants the Warden to go back.  She thinks they could change things

And so could she.  So what's her problem?

[Wedge Antilles]

amtvcjca wrote...

How can i kill Wynne at the Circle of Magi? And what happens if i do it?
Is there any way to NOT take her with me? It's annoying how she puts herself into your party and you can't choose someone else. If i take her, for how long is she locked in the party?

The only other option is to finish the whole tower scenerio and either side with the mages or " decide to see the situation before deciding" (or something like that) at Cullen's cage and then kill Uldred. Use the Littany at least once! With the final discussion  at the tower enterance with Gregoir and the first enchanter you can tell the chantry puppet that  you " don't want you following me around nagging" (again something to that effect, I know its the last line option).  She will stay at the tower and can be recruited later if you really want to. This is of course if you don't slot her the first time in... 
 
@ Skadi : great to have you back doing what you do best !

[Addai]

digi_ronin wrote...
But  to get back to the Circle: they aren't perfect no doubt - but looking at the rest of what Thedas offers... Well, they seem to be the only viable option a civilized mage has (in terms of organized official Magery). And before Thedas ends up with a slew of backroom magic dabblers, chaotic neutral hedge wizards, neutral evil witches, chaotic evil blood mages... I'll rather go with the Circle.

(Yeah, I know my view is tinted by D&D concepts, but that's what I've been playing for years, so I can't shed my skin, there. ^^

I would call it the only legal option.  "Civilized" is a loaded word.  There is a lot about the Circle system that can be called brutal and uncivilized.  It also can't be separated from the Chantry, they're the ones who started it and run it, Circle mages are Chantry affiliates whether they want to be or not.  It's another area where Wynne is hypocritical.  She tells Alistair "you got away just in time," but she's basically a Chantry tool herself.

I see it as a kind of Stockholm syndrome.  All of the senior enchanters are kind of dotty.  Maybe it's the lyrium.

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

And so could she.  So what's her problem?

She's going to die soon, and she's not the heroic saviour of Ferelden.

[aries1001]

Actually, there is a major change to at least one quest, if Wynne is not in the party and the Tower is saved. I won't go into specifics here, but in happens in and around Lothering. As for Anders I did have my own doubts about the -ahem- spirit that joins with him, when said spirit denied that it had any desires whatsoever - in a tone -cough- that contradicted it was saying. If you stay with Wynne, you'd get access to a very sad story, indeed...

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

And so could she.  So what's her problem?

She's going to die soon, and she's not the heroic saviour of Ferelden.

After lecturing you about the Grey Wardens saving humanity, it would seem logical that the Warden mage would be better out... saving humanity.  Rather than locked in a tower.  And she has enough time to go off galavanting in Cumberland, Tevinter etc.

[Addai]

aries1001 wrote...

Actually, there is a major change to at least one quest, if Wynne is not in the party and the Tower is saved. I won't go into specifics here, but in happens in and around Lothering.

Lothering?    I'm scratching my head.

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

After lecturing you about the Grey Wardens saving humanity, it would seem logical that the Warden mage would be better out... saving humanity.  Rather than locked in a tower.  And she has enough time to go off galavanting in Cumberland, Tevinter etc.

She's not suggesting the warden go back until after they've saved the world - and I very much doubt they'd be stuck in the tower anyway, any more than Wynne, Irving or that botanist lady in Awakening are.

She's been trying to reform the system for decades and not getting anywhere.  She's not going to achieve anything more in the few years left.  The Warden's reputation and general awesomeness give them a chance of success.

[Addai]

She's not trying to reform anything, as far as I can see. She wants people to follow the rules.'

At any rate, it's simply one more opportunity for my mage Wardens to tell her where she can stick her Circle Tower. 

Modifié par Addai67, 05 mai 2011 - 10:10 .

[aries1001]

Maybe I'm rembering it wrongly, but there's a substaintail choice to be made in that castle thingy...

[Addai]

aries1001 wrote...

Maybe I'm rembering it wrongly, but there's a substaintail choice to be made in that castle thingy...

Oh, you mean Redcliffe?  You don't need Wynne for that, but you do need the Circle to be saved for a certain option to be open, yes.  You can still kill Wynne earlier, for instance by agreeing with Morrigan when you first encounter Wynne in the Tower.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 mai 2011 - 11:40 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Addai67 wrote...

She's not trying to reform anything, as far as I can see. She wants people to follow the rules.'

Nothing wrong with that so long as they're good rules.

At any rate, it's simply one more opportunity for my mage Wardens to tell her where she can stick her Circle Tower. 

Well, the spirit-possessed mages can't *all* go around whining about how oppressed they are and encouraging their fellow mages to help build home-made bombs to stick it to The Man.

But after DA2, who knows? Wynne's spirit might change her.

[Wulfram]

I think Wynne's desire for reform comes across pretty clearly, I think

Warden: I don't want to go back to that oppressive place
Wynne: That's the point. It doesn't have to be. If you went back and assumed a position of power, you could change it for the better
You've seen the world, dealt with kings and lords, templars and apostates. You've seen the good and bad of all of these
Your life as a Grey Warden has given you a chance to venture abroad, farther than many mages have been
You could bring these experiences back to the circle, improve it with what you know. It will take time but it can be done, slowly.

[Addai]

Point is, Wynne wants everyone else to go to the Circle and be good little Chantry bots. Not just the Warden, but Aneirin too. Meanwhile, she's off to be court busybody or Tevinter adventurer.

[Wulfram]

She thinks the circle benefits from mages who interact with the rest of the world. And then she, as a circle mage, interacts with the rest of the world.

[Addai]

But doesn't want to bring her experience back. So yeah, like I was saying.

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

But doesn't want to bring her experience back. So yeah, like I was saying.

She's been doing that for decades.

[Addai]

I'm sure this comes down to how you feel about the Circle in general. If you think it's neato speedo, Wynne's suggestion that you go back can be seen in a reasonable light. I see being dragged from your parents and locked up as having already given way too much time to that hole. The idea that you'd go back voluntarily- that's an insult. But Wynne will suggest it even to people who clearly have no time for her priorities. Like the guy she chased out and who almost got killed as a result, and who's perfectly happy in his forest.  That's not just hypocritical, it's tone-deaf and insensitive.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 mai 2011 - 06:31 .

[Wulfram]

Wynne certainly doesn't think the Circle is "neato speedo" - she agrees with the Warden's characterisation of it as "oppressive". She thinks it's fixable, and worth fixing.

[Addai]

When does she do that? I took every opportunity to tell her the Circle sucks, and I recall a lot of "Wynne disapproves."