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[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Blood magic is the reason Thedas isn't overrun with darkspawn...

Blood magic is also the reason why the darkspawn exist.

According to the Chantry, who are decidedly anti-blood magic (unless they themselves are the ones using it).

[Eumerin]

Merrill always struck me as the equivalent of a five year-old walking around with a nuclear detonator.  Just cognizant enough to be aware that she's doing something dangerous, but not enough to have even the slightest inkling of just how dangerous it really is to the people around her.

When her final quest started, I knew at a gut level that it wasn't going to end well.  Though of course I didn't realize exactly how the "not end well" would play out.

[OldMan91]

By FreshLemonade on Deviantart

Wook at dat cute wittle Mewill spwaying blood all over the bad man.

[The dead fish]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ok what Merrill bashing has been going on? Is it the usual "She's a complete ****** and blood magic is evil" diatribe I see often enough?

Yep. It's pretty much all they have.

Interesting thought: if Avernus' theories are correct, blood magic and the darkspawn may also be quite a good way to get rid of demons.

which will certainly demand a huge price  for reaching such a conclusion.

Besides, it's interesting that you find it interesting, you who so loves playing characters with a perfect moral.  Avernus to carry out these experiments need to guard many warden' s bodies and other. His experiences could take years. Are you willing to sacrifice dozens of lives for science during many years ?

1 - Morrigan is a powerful witch, the daughter of Flemeth, knowledge is more extensive than any other.

2 - She does not use blood magic, ( she has the same power as Flemeth,) unlike Merrill who lacks power.

3- Morrigan knows what she is doing, Merrill didn't know what she did.

4 - The conditions for success are not collected at all.

And it's not because you like Merrill that it is forbidden to recognize some points are quite strange. I also like Merril, so cool for some.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 mai 2011 - 12:23 .

[Sabariel]

Not really. She made me go "EWWCREEPY!" which rhymes with GIGGLESQUEE... sort of...

[Maria Caliban]

Merrill is adorable and wonderful and her story is surprisingly complex. Mary Kirby did a wonderful job with her!

[Xilizhra]

Avernus to carry out these experiments need to guard many warden' s bodies and other. His experiences could take years. Are you willing to sacrifice dozens of lives for science during many years ?

Well, I persuaded him to start conducting less nasty experiments, so I wouldn't face that price.

[The dead fish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Avernus to carry out these experiments need to guard many warden' s bodies and other. His experiences could take years. Are you willing to sacrifice dozens of lives for science during many years ?

Well, I persuaded him to start conducting less nasty experiments, so I wouldn't face that price.

Yeah. And yet he said very clearly that this result will be much more mixed if he don't do  these experiments on bodies. It is possible that without these experiments, you find yourself having to have to choose this solution in sacrificing people a day.

Why ? Because you had forbidden him to do precisely these experiences when he could. It's just one example,  but forbid him to do these true experiments will not be without consequences on the outcome, in particular the certainty of holding  the solution when will come the day.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 mai 2011 - 12:48 .

[Sussurus]

Point of contention: Morrigan is not a bloodmage in DA:O.***.. but she does use it.
The baby daddy ritual is a bloodmagic ritual, she says so, yes she does.
The magic Flemith taught her is either hinted at or said to involve bloodmagic or have certain aspects rooted in it.

*** unless you edumacate her in it that is.

This said I like Merrill, I could throttle her sometimes but that same goes for every character.

Modifié par Sussurus, 05 mai 2011 - 12:56 .

[LobselVith8]

Sylvianus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
You seem mostly focused on the fact that she used blood magic. Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic provide us with Grey Wardens. Blood magic is the reason Thedas isn't overrun with darkspawn, it's the reason why people aren't being eaten alive and why women aren't being violated across Thedas. Merrill wants to help her people from their downward spiral and give them back a part of Arlathan. The possible benefits could dramatically improve the lives of the elves, and I see no reason to back Merrill down from an altruistic cause.

An altruistic cause can be mishandled, can divert a path, can do much harm to others. Anders also has an altruistic cause, the means are not necessarily aligned with the cause.

The difference is Merrill is putting her life on the line (and even asks Hawke to kill her if she loses a battle of wills with Audacity given his extensive history putting down demons and abominations) while Anders kills members of the Chantry clergy and templars inside the Kirkwall Chantry, including Grand Cleric Elthina.

Sylvianus wrote...

Blood magic is never unrequited, never without a price. What price to pay for operating an ancient power with blood magic ? Certainly a price very high.

Every Grey Warden pays a price for The Joining - a ritual of blood magic that enables the nation to survive the Blights and put an end to them. Merrill is willing to pay the price with her own life for the slim chance for all her people to benefit from lost knowledge that was once held by her ancestors.

Sylvianus wrote...

It's completely naive to think that only her life is at stake. It is a price too low for my taste.

It's not naive. Merrill didn't command Marethari to become an abomination, she didn't force the members of her clan to attempt to kill her in cold blood. Merrill's restoration of the Eluvian could revolutionize the elves across the continent.

Sylvianus wrote...

Benefits can only be illusory fantasies that turn into a nightmare in reality for Dalatians and maybe more. Connor thought he could save his father, responded to the appeal of fantasy and illusion, he got lost in the emotion as Merrill. We know what happened. He wished good too. And yet evil was there.

You're comparing a deal with a demon to the restoration of ancient technology - it's not a fair comparison to make.

Sylvianus wrote...

Wanting only a lot of things without thinking responsibly, is woefully inadequate.

Merrill thinks very clearly that the outcome is simple, she will not endanger anyone other than she, when in fact she ignores the scope of her experience. She ignores what will happen.

Merrill doesn't ignore what will happen, she simply can't control Marethari - who acts on her suspicions when she becomes an abomination, and this may have been Audacity's plan all along.

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill wants to help her people, why should she abandon a piece of technology that can irrevocably transform their lives for the better?

She doesn't even know what it does. She presumes that based on little else but "it's elf-made, it's old so it must be good"

Hawke is never privy to the lore that Merrill has gathered, which David Gaider has addressed Merrill used in her creation of the Eluvian.

tmp7704 wrote...

For that matter so do we. "Irrevocably transform lives for the better" is quite a presumption to make when the only thing we know for a fact about these items is, you can enter one (and what happens once you do is anyone's guess). See how that presumption turned out for the tevinter magisters.

It's a possibility, so why shouldn't it be presented as a possible outcome? Either Merrill will succed or she won't, but if she does and the Eluvian provides a fundamental improvement and change for her people, then that's what it's going to do.

tmp7704 wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

According to the Chantry. ...not really going to take their word for it, honestly.

It's not as much the Chantry says it that makes it potentially true, but rather that the Tevinter doesn't really argue it. And you'd think it's in their best interest to deny such major charge against the "threats of magic".

The dwarves were the first to encounter the darkspawn, they have dealt with the darkspawn extensively for over a millennia, and they don't believe in the Chantry's claims about the fall of the Golden City.

[Kenshen]

If I could leave her on Sundermount I would. If I could kill her I would. As is once back to Kirkwall I only ever see her in cut scenes where the whole group is shown. Nope didn't like the character.

[frustratemyself]

My question is how does Merrill know that the Eluvian will help restore any of the history and/or culture that the Dalish have lost?
In the DAO Dalish origin story they didn't seem to know anything much about it if I remember correctly. That means that Merrill is either making a lot of assumptions or listening to pretty lies from a demon about what she can achieve by reconstructing the Eluvian.

[Chiramu]

Varric's joke when you talk to Sebastian in Act 2 got more of a reaction out of me than anything Merrill says lol.

[LobselVith8]

frustratemyself wrote...

My question is how does Merrill know that the Eluvian will help restore any of the history and/or culture that the Dalish have lost?
In the DAO Dalish origin story they didn't seem to know anything much about it if I remember correctly. That means that Merrill is either making a lot of assumptions or listening to pretty lies from a demon about what she can achieve by reconstructing the Eluvian.

David Gaider mentioned that Merrill had gathered lore when she extrapolated information from the shard in order to build the Eluvian. I suppose the lore she found had information about them.

[Sussurus]

frustratemyself wrote...

My question is how does Merrill know that the Eluvian will help restore any of the history and/or culture that the Dalish have lost?
In the DAO Dalish origin story they didn't seem to know anything much about it if I remember correctly. That means that Merrill is either making a lot of assumptions or listening to pretty lies from a demon about what she can achieve by reconstructing the Eluvian.

At first.. or at least with a dalish elf import game.
She goes on about needing to use it to find out what happened to Tamlin and the dalish PC.
She knows it is part of her history, and has talked to the demon and others about it.
Even buying / asking for the shard that was used in witch hunt and any infomation with it.

I think she then over the years goes from obsessed about finding her missing clan members.
To fixating on the history and power within the mirror.

[Maria Caliban]

frustratemyself wrote...

My question is how does Merrill know that the Eluvian will help restore any of the history and/or culture that the Dalish have lost?

She doesn't. She's pinned a great deal of her hopes on the eluvian doing *something wonderful* though all she knows of it is that it's a communication device. She also suspects it's really ****ing dangerous, but she'd rather ignore that part.

I think it's sad that people who hate Merrill still see her as more complex than many who love the character.

[LobselVith8]

There are assumptions made by fans on how much Merrill knows, but no one is certain. Gaider addressed she gathered lore, though:

David Gaider wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...
Gotcha. So she basically recreates the rest of the eluvian she has in her house during Act II-III from the shard she takes via magic or whatever, I assume?

She just has the one shard. She incorporates it into the mirror she builds, extrapolating its construction both from the shard itself and what lore she's been able to collect.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke is never privy to the lore that Merrill has gathered, which David Gaider has addressed Merrill used in her creation of the Eluvian.

However Merrill doesn't refer to the mirror as to "device that can irrevocably transform elf lives for the better", does she? When you question her why she's so determined to get it working come hell or high water the best she chooses to offer is how "it's the Keeper's job to remember".

It's a possibility, so why shouldn't it be presented as a possible outcome?

By all means, present it as a possible outcome. There's a difference in saying "i may win lottery this week" and "i will win lottery this week". You were doing the equivalent of the latter.

The dwarves were the first to encounter the darkspawn, they have dealt with the darkspawn extensively for over a millennia, and they don't believe in the Chantry's claims about the fall of the Golden City.

If i remember things right, the dwarves have no theory of their own about where the darkspawn came from, and i also don't recall any of them really dispute the Chantry version. What exactly makes you think they don't believe it? Plus, given the dwarves don't naturally visit the Fade it would be hard for them to talk with authority about whether the darkspawn had originated thanks to something happening there.

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 mai 2011 - 02:12 .

[frustratemyself]

Thanks re Eluvian info. I've been wondering about it for a while now.

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke is never privy to the lore that Merrill has gathered, which David Gaider has addressed Merrill used in her creation of the Eluvian.

However Merrill doesn't refer to the mirror as to "device that can irrevocably transform elf lives for the better", does she? When you question her why she's so determined to get it working come hell or high water the best she chooses to offer is how "it's the Keeper's job to remember".

Merrill never divulges the extent of her knowledge about the Eluvian.

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's a possibility, so why shouldn't it be presented as a possible outcome?

By all means, present it as a possible outcome. There's a difference in saying "i may win lottery this week" and "i will win lottery this week". You were doing the equivalent of the latter.

Like you do when you provide your opinions as facts?

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The dwarves were the first to encounter the darkspawn, they have dealt with the darkspawn extensively for over a millennia, and they don't believe in the Chantry's claims about the fall of the Golden City.

If i remember things right, the dwarves have no theory of their own about where the darkspawn came from, and i also don't recall any of them really dispute the Chantry version. What exactly makes you think they don't believe it? Plus, given the dwarves don't naturally visit the Fade it would be hard for them to talk with authority about whether the darkspawn had originated thanks to something happening there.

The dwarves don't believe in the Chantry's version of events:

"The Chantry teaches that it is the hubris of men that brought the darkspawn into Thedas. The mage rulers of the Tevinter Imperium sought to usurp the Golden City — the afterlife created by the Maker for mortals — but were cast out, twisted by their own corruption, only to return as monsters; the first of the darkspawn. The dwarves hold no such beliefs; to them, the darkspawn simply appeared one day and have been their bitter enemies ever since, although it is suggested that some Dwarves (if not all) believe the humans are the reason for their existence."

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill never divulges the extent of her knowledge about the Eluvian.

And she also never divulges the Eluvian is to her anything more but a piece of lore she's determined to "remember".

Like you do when you provide your opinions as facts?

If/when you consider i do that, i expect to be called out on this, just like i called you out in this instance. If there's reasonable argument provided with it i have no issue with changing my views accordingly.

The dwarves don't believe in the Chantry's version of events:

"The Chantry teaches that it is the hubris of men that brought the darkspawn into Thedas. The mage rulers of the Tevinter Imperium sought to usurp the Golden City — the afterlife created by the Maker for mortals — but were cast out, twisted by their own corruption, only to return as monsters; the first of the darkspawn. The dwarves hold no such beliefs; to them, the darkspawn simply appeared one day and have been their bitter enemies ever since, although it is suggested that some Dwarves (if not all) believe the humans are the reason for their existence."

Ahh cool, didn't remember that. There doesn't seem to be any actual conflict between the dwarves' version and the Chantry version, then -- the dwarves believe the darkspawn appeared one day and humans are the reason for their existence. The Chantry says very much the same, just fills in extra details, ones which the dwarves would have no real knowledge of.

[Xilizhra]

Maria Caliban wrote...

frustratemyself wrote...

My question is how does Merrill know that the Eluvian will help restore any of the history and/or culture that the Dalish have lost?

She doesn't. She's pinned a great deal of her hopes on the eluvian doing *something wonderful* though all she knows of it is that it's a communication device. She also suspects it's really ****ing dangerous, but she'd rather ignore that part.

I think it's sad that people who hate Merrill still see her as more complex than many who love the character.

How so, for the latter?

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill never divulges the extent of her knowledge about the Eluvian.

And she also never divulges the Eluvian is to her anything more but a piece of lore she's determined to "remember".

You're addressing her reference to that one line at Sundermount repeatedly for your argument. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Like you do when you provide your opinions as facts?

If/when you consider i do that, i expect to be called out on this, just like i called you out in this instance. If there's reasonable argument provided with it i have no issue with changing my views accordingly.

I addressed the possibility of what the Eluvian could mean for the elves. You claim that "She doesn't even know what it does" when we don't know that. Also, when you claim that she "presumes that based on little else but it's elf-made, it's old so it must be good" you're presenting your opinions as facts.

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The dwarves don't believe in the Chantry's version of events:

"The Chantry teaches that it is the hubris of men that brought the darkspawn into Thedas. The mage rulers of the Tevinter Imperium sought to usurp the Golden City — the afterlife created by the Maker for mortals — but were cast out, twisted by their own corruption, only to return as monsters; the first of the darkspawn. The dwarves hold no such beliefs; to them, the darkspawn simply appeared one day and have been their bitter enemies ever since, although it is suggested that some Dwarves (if not all) believe the humans are the reason for their existence."

Ahh cool, didn't remember that. There doesn't seem to be any actual conflict between the dwarves' version and the Chantry version, then -- the dwarves believe the darkspawn appeared one day and humans are the reason for their existence. The Chantry says very much the same, just fills in extra details, ones which the dwarves would have no real knowledge of.

The "dwarves hold no such beliefs" mention is where the dwarves don't believe in the Chantry version of events, and blaming "humans" for their presence isn't the same as blaming the "Magisters" for going against the Maker.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're addressing her reference to that one line at Sundermount repeatedly for your argument. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

That's what the Chantry says about the Maker. Going this route it's perfectly logical to make claim that the Eluvian can spawn herds of flying halla and restore the Arlathan to its former glory in one swoop. And infuse every being in Thedas with magical ability. There's no evidence to support that but hey, that's just absence of the evidence, isn't it.

I addressed the possibility of what the Eluvian could mean for the elves. You claim that "She doesn't even know what it does" when we don't know that. Also, when you claim that she "presumes that based on little else but it's elf-made, it's old so it must be good" you're presenting your opinions as facts.

Hmm, you're right here -- at least about the last part, i have to agree. Although i'd still consider that when it comes to knowing what the Eluvian does, that's at least debatable. She doesn't appear to know its purpose when you can question her about it initially, and for all the talk about "absence of evidence" i'd say that failing to present the "evidence" like she does can be in the context reasonably viewed as "evidence" itself, i.e. an indication there's lack of knowledge.

Whether she learns that purpose at some point we don't know, but since it's never indicated that she does then it's again reasonable to presume that she doesn't -- as going the other way is the route to flying halla madness.

The "dwarves hold no such beliefs" mention is where the dwarves don't believe in the Chantry version of events

That's to be expected because the dwarves don't believe in the Maker (most of them doesn't, anyway)  But then how many dwarves have seen the Black (and earlier allegedly the Golden) City with their own eyes? Their beliefs fit with what they know, and don't really conflict with the Chantry version per se -- just because the dwarves believe the darkspawn appeared one day out of the blue doesn't mean it couldn't appear as result of the magisters entering the Golden City.