153 réponses à ce sujet

[MajesticJazz]

I just want to play and experience a wonderfully put together story that was uniquely concieved by the developers themselves.

I do not want to play a game where the story is just a concoction of a variety of plot points/characters that the fans wanted to see.

That is what make ME1 such a great story, that is what made Jade Empire, Dragon Age: Origins, Neverwinter Knights, and Baulder's Gate such great stories. They were 100% created by the minds of Bioware.

This is why I am looking forward do Star Wars: The Old Republic's many stories (all 8 classes have their own unique story) moreso than Mass Effect 3.

[Nohvarr]

crimzontearz wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

“We’ve had the very high-level concept of the trilogy mapped out from the start. That concept really just gets us a start and end point, with a few basic structural ideas. From there, we listened to the feedback from fans and reviewers, and combined it with our own creative ideas to form a clear vision for what Mass Effect 2 should look like. It’s at that point that we decided to make the story about preparing a team for a suicide mission as a means of tying even the most sentimental side plots into your epic mission. It’s a top-down process where the story outline is the last thing to be done after we have the larger structural aspects of the game in place.”

-- Casey Hudson in an interview with gamesradar.

.

And this is exactly what I mean when I say that Bioware needs to TELL THEIR STORY and stop altering their storys to  better satisfy a small faction of the consumers.

What makes great storys so great is because they are unique and a work of art of the author/writer(s). Whenevre they start to try to build their story around the wishes of their fans which tend to be fanboys/fangirls or either people with irrational complaints about a certain aspect of the plot....that is when the author/writer(s) loses their creative touch to something more robotic and less organic.

ME3 isn't out yet so I havent played it. With that being said, I am going to wait until I play and complete ME3 before I start to evaluate just how important ME2 was to the overall story. However if I had to guess now, I would say ME2 is HIGHLY irrelevant to the overall story in comparision to ME1. Judging from how ME3 starts and evovles, it would appear that Arrival DLC is more relevant than the entire plot of ME2. From how it is shaping up now, I could play ME1, skip ME2 (but play Arrival) and jump straight into ME3 without feeling like I missed anything important.

yeah....but they need to listen to the fans too especially with mechanical/gameplay suggestions

 Which fans, because they don't all agree.

listen to all

draw your own conclusions......implement what you think sensible.....

Makes sense, thats what they did for ME 2 and it worked out very well in the end.

[MajesticJazz]

Nohvarr wrote...



Makes sense, thats what they did for ME 2 and it worked out very well in the end.

What makes sense?

[SalsaDMA]

Durgon Ironfist wrote...

As to the importance of ME2 I will say this yes we have characters returning but more importantly, we have ties with the factions we're attempting to recruit to save earth. Example you help Legion he respects you and when asking for the assistance of the geth he would most likely stand for you.

Problem being that Casey Hudson stated in interviews that they don't want to 'punish' players with certain decisions, so they have made sure you don't 'loose out on stuff' based on decisions.

In more blunt words: Your choice only affects the colour of pixels that talk to you, some of the sentences, and possibly a change of a few letters in the name (ala Wrex in ME2). Forget about the choice actually mattering, appearantly...

[SalsaDMA]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

Undertone wrote...

@AdmiralCheez

You are probably correct that I should wait for more info. And yes ME2 is fun, but story and dialogue have always been the most important aspects for me when it comes to movies, games, whatever. Currently you can play ME1, skip ME2 entirely and still be up with what's going on with very few exceptions (the only one that I can maybe think of is "Oh the geth are good guys now").

You could also skip ME1, just play ME2 and you will have a very good idea of what is going on.

Add to that, that the story and dialogue were far superior in ME2, and you could say that the first game was just an experiment in which they tried to blend RPGs and shooters, and that ME2 is the happy, improved result of that particular experiment - a far superior game.

While some aspects were improved, some aspects were worsened to the point of immersion breaking.
So I disagree with your assessment of ME2 being a 'far superior game'.

Just to give one example, I always sighed heavily when I was faced with a 'score screen' after a mission. ME1 at least felt like one continued adventure where ME2 was just a bunch of chopped up sidemissions with scoreboards in between.

[Nohvarr]

That POV assumes the worst, when they've said in previous interviews that, in the final game, they can take the story in much more varied directions since they no longer have to worry about any sequels to Shepard's story.

[SalsaDMA]

Nohvarr wrote...

That POV assumes the worst, when they've said in previous interviews that, in the final game, they can take the story in much more varied directions since they no longer have to worry about any sequels to Shepard's story.

but if you take the story in different directions, it means people loose out, hence they aren't gonna do it.

Expect at most a token difference ala DA:O where your choice dicates wether you get werewolves or elves, and that's it. Ie. Different pixels for the same gameplay effect.

[Nohvarr]

Sorry but I don't agree. I don't think that Casey's words lead only to your interrpretation.

[Undertone]

Thrombin wrote...

Undertone wrote...
The quarians got scared and decided to kill them all. They knew they
were sentient or becoming sentient and that's why they wanted to kill
them all.

It's not killing if they're just machines. They wanted to shut them down before they became sentient because they reasoned that, once they became sentient, they would inevitably try to destroy them. It was self-preservation. It may have been misguided but that was the intent.

At the end of the day the Quarians are a good people embodied with a sense of community spirit and cooperation. They would abhor the sort of tactics used by Cerberus as would any right thinking human,

The genophage was authorized by the Council. Thousands
died in still-birth or something along those lines are the exact words
of Wrex

I'm not saying I agree with it but the Council is just three people and the stakes were extremely high. The alternative solution would have been killing the Krogan instead so, at the end of the day, it is still arguable that it was the lesser of two evils.

As for Rachni, where's your proof? All you got is just the Queen's words. Of course
since it's a paragon choice though it will work out good, nothing wrong
will happen. Just like all those "reformed" killers, thiefs that Shepard
lets lose and somehow "Talk-Jutsu" them into becoming model citizens.

Where's your proof, I'm wrong? In any case, you were saying that it was hypocritical for Shepard to ally himself with the Rachni while at the same time disapproving of Cerberus. It's not hypocritical if he believes the Rachni are innocent. Whether they are or not is beside the point.

Every race and every goverment have had an organization like Cerberus. You need innovation and progress, sometimes at all costs especially when it comes to survival. I would rather have human dominance and survival then everyone dead cause supporting Cerberus is ethically wrong.

You say that as though morality and survival are mutually exclusive. That's where Cerberus is wrong. It's making an enemy of every non-human in the Galaxy when the only thing that will save the Galaxy is mutual cooperation.

I also don't see any reason to want human dominance. Human co-existence should be a perfectly valid goal.

Regards

Julian

Everybody has an agenda geez - TIM, Udina, Saren, Anderson, Hackket, the Council. I love it when somebody say "Oh gee TIM has a secret agenda! Dun dun dun". As if everyone else is honest like a panda.

No, the geth were hunted down and attacked because of achieving sentience. @Moiaussi put it down more eloquently then me.

What you say about the Council I can say for Cerberus - it's one man and the stakes are really highly. Not only because of the Reapers, but because there's no gurantee that Humanity won't be dominated by another race. Who has the guarantee that the Batarians won't attack, or the Turians? Or that the Salarians won't create a virus because we don't agree with some bull**** policy the Council tries to apply to us. Constant progress is required. Do you know nothing of competion? It happens in every day life through moral and immoral means. At the end of the day you see me arguing nowhere that Cerberus are moral, they are needed however. Most of the world technological advancements are written in blood if you look at history or gained through immoral means. They help save lifes now nonetheless though don't they? 

As for the Rachni - they are a variable of HUGE proportion. One you know almost if nothing at all about. And you make the decision based on the simple words the Queen says as if they are face value. Anyone and anything will say whatever to save their lifes, truth or not is irrelevant. If the Queen is evil do you think she is going to say - "Let me go and I will destroy you all. I will be nice till you let me go though" Duh. Cerberus on the other hand is a known variable - they are working for human dominance/they use unethical means/they are secretly part of the Alliance/ they have large funding/etc. So yeah I find it bizzare that the Rachni and all other examples are apparently all good but when it comes to Cerberus they are evil, must be destroyed at all costs bla bla.

Morality and survival are mutually exclusive. Ask yourself where does your morality comes from, whom does it benefit? If you've experienced war or known a little bit about history the answer to this question is simple. When you take away electricity, food, shelter or any basic resource/need or necessity your cute human being or animal suddenly becomes something entirely else. At it's core it's survival of the fittest - an ideology which works even in our modern world and in every aplication of life.

Domination does not always mean physical dominance. In terms of human dominance and Cerberus - it means keeping humanity a viable competion. Either through resources or through military might. Or through political power which is often closely related with the accumulation of resources and strong military.

Without power nothing can be done - good or evil. Without strife, there's stagnation. Without change or something adding to the mix as we humans added to the mix when we arrived to the Citadel - all life would have been exterminated by now thanks to the stagnacy of the Council races. Why should humanity limit itself and get weaker for the sake of galactic cooperation? If we are stronger or we can become stronger why stay at one place? 


ME2 is inferior to ME1 in terms of plot, characters, dialogue and atmosphere. The only thing better is the combat system. Hell just listen to the last lines - "I won't let fear justify who I am" Dun Dun Dun. Pretty much playing ME2 is completely irrelevant except that the Geth are now good guys, Arrival and LotSB. Considering the lenght of these parts it could have been easily done in ME1 without ME2 whatsoever.

And no I don't hate ME2 - I like the game. But when you make comparison to ME1 in terms of the core aspects like story and dialogue it's just meh. Especially the plot is more and more rendered useless.

[Kusy]

Hey Undertone, you sound like a retard with your paragon / renegade imaginary community conflict. Hope that helps.

[Manic Sheep]

Honest like a panda? Pandas aren’t honest. Their sneaky little bastards I tell ya.

[Epic777]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

Hey Undertone, you sound like a retard with your paragon / renegade imaginary community conflict. Hope that helps.

Cold.....

[Zulu_DFA]

Crackpot theory:

TIM doesn't want to kill Shepard. That's why he sends his mooks with stun rods to capture Shepard alive (instead of dropping an H-bomb on his head). Knowing Shepard, this is most probably going to fail... And if not, Shepard will still be alive and able to "escape"...

Goal: the visible hunt by Cerberus gives Shepard more credibility before the aliens.

In the meantime, TIM tracks and to a degree controls Shepard's actions through Liara.

[Thompson family]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Crackpot theory:

TIM doesn't want to kill Shepard. That's why he sends his mooks with stun rods to capture Shepard alive (instead of dropping an H-bomb on his head). Knowing Shepard, this is most probably going to fail... And if not, Shepard will still be alive and able to "escape"...

Goal: the visible hunt by Cerberus gives Shepard more credibility before the aliens.

In the meantime, TIM tracks and to a degree controls Shepard's actions through Liara.

I'd like to give that one a nod just for the original thinking.

[Undertone]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

Hey Undertone, you sound like a retard with your paragon / renegade imaginary community conflict. Hope that helps.

Kthxbai.

[Icinix]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Crackpot theory:

TIM doesn't want to kill Shepard. That's why he sends his mooks with stun rods to capture Shepard alive (instead of dropping an H-bomb on his head). Knowing Shepard, this is most probably going to fail... And if not, Shepard will still be alive and able to "escape"...

Goal: the visible hunt by Cerberus gives Shepard more credibility before the aliens.

In the meantime, TIM tracks and to a degree controls Shepard's actions through Liara.

..you may...be onto something there...*strokes chin*

[DarthSliver]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Crackpot theory:

TIM doesn't want to kill Shepard. That's why he sends his mooks with stun rods to capture Shepard alive (instead of dropping an H-bomb on his head). Knowing Shepard, this is most probably going to fail... And if not, Shepard will still be alive and able to "escape"...

Goal: the visible hunt by Cerberus gives Shepard more credibility before the aliens.

In the meantime, TIM tracks and to a degree controls Shepard's actions through Liara.

This is what I think too,  TIM is only putting on a show so Shepard looks like his against Cerberus once again and can unite the Armies of the Galaxy against the Reaper threat.  But I dont think TIM is worried that Shepard will die or not, he figures if Shepard cant stop his troops than he problay cant stop the Reapers. 

I mean I dont see any indication at the end of the Paragon ending that TIM will betray you. Yeah his ticked off at you for destroying base, but TIM isnt the type for pity revenge. 

And as for the OP, I am not going to listen to the same tune from these type of threads. Why dont you outright say this is another "Why Cerberus is against you in ME2 thread" than try to paint it something different.

[GreenDragon37]

Nohvarr wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Tripedius wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

The whole Cerberus is evil bit in 3 is stupid . but hey it shows why Mass Effect has a worse Story than any Metal Gear Solid game ever did .

Ya know you could not play the game and visit these forums and not be bothered by the story. However I do have a question name me a gaming trilogy that has a better story than ME. And its not MGS.

 

I will always call developers out for bull sh*t and yeah the story in Metal Gear Solid games make more sense than ME 's story does .

[sarcasam]Yes because in MGS, nano-machines did everything.[/sarcasam]

As for Cerberus, I ran across the following in another forum. I'm reposting the relevant bits here.as it gives a good perspective on TIM and his organization

Excuse: The Illusive man didn't Know  

Yeah. He claimed. But then again, Jacob clearly outlined a situation in the Alliance in the very beginning of the game where Alliance born and Alliance bred humans did off-the-books work for the Alliance so the Alliance could get things done (like assassinations) without 'actually' having to do them. Their dirty laundry gets cleaned, and if **** ever goes south, they disavow all knowledge and say you're a rouge element.

What did the Illusive Man do when you pointed out all the evil **** Cerberus has done? Well, he said things had changed. And when you pressed the issue? He said he knew nothing about it and claimed they were rouge elements.

That's a hell of a familiar excuse, isn't it? Didn't we just hear that story about the Corsairs about five minutes before that? We did.

Fact: The Illusive Man handles the money and the direction of the organization. He's the one who sets up the projects, and he's the one who writes the checks. Practically speaking, it's pretty much impossible for a section of Cerberus to literally 'go rouge.' They would lose all access to their resources, and the rest of the organization would swoop in under Illusive Man's orders to crush them, because he knows who they are, where they live, what they look like, and exactly how to track them down. So unless they're all giganinjas and managed to set up a billion intergalactic lemonade stands while nobody was looking, the scenario claimed is pretty much impossible.

That only leaves one real explanation left. He knew, he funded it, and when [expletive deleted] went sour, he cut them loose. Hell, the entire Cerberus organization is founded on that. Look at how they're organized. Cells that know nothing about each other, have nothing to do with each other, and work independently from everyone else. The only one who knows everything that's going on is the Illusive Man. No one else exists who could corroborate any story or evidence. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, so if the left hand gets cut off one day, the head can feed the right hand whatever story it wants.

On Cerberus' past actions and what they say about the group

They were planting Dragon's Teeth onto out-of-the-way colony worlds to observe the effects. They were sending out Rachnai into areas garrisoned with Alliance military personnel just to observe how the Rachnai fight. They planted fake distress beacons in the middle of Thresher nests just to gather data on them, at the expense of two entire companies of soldiers. They assassinated Admiral Kohaku and threw his body into a pen filled with husks just for the hell of it. They injected the acid venom of a Maw into a marine's blood "to see what would happen."

Are you seriously going to try and tell me that all of that was 'just rouge agents?' Either the Illusive Man is the most incompetent manager EVER, or he's lying out of both sides of his mouth at the same time, and trying to bull**** you for every last bit he can take you for.

The Illusive Man has intel detailed enough to know the exact measurements of every member of his organization. Are you seriously going to pretend that entire cells could go rouge and do these massive operations, and for him to not know anything about it?

On the Illusive man himself

The Illusive Man, and I quote, "represents both the best and the absolute worst of humanity in one package." That means he's self-sacrificing, a patriot, and a man of his word. It also means he's a lying liar who lies lies, is willing to sacrifice as many lives as it takes to get what he wants, has no compunctions or moral boundaries he isn't willing to cross with impunity, and will cheerfully and without hesitation betray and screw-over anyone and anything that starts messing with him and his bottom line, up to and including entire species, the Citadel, the Council, the Alliance, his own organization, every last person under his command, and you, Commander Shepard.

"Why is the Illusive Man after Shepard in Mass Effect 3?"

[expletive deleted], I'm surprised it took him this long.

I love this. <3

[GreenDragon37]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

Undertone wrote...

@AdmiralCheez

You are probably correct that I should wait for more info. And yes ME2 is fun, but story and dialogue have always been the most important aspects for me when it comes to movies, games, whatever. Currently you can play ME1, skip ME2 entirely and still be up with what's going on with very few exceptions (the only one that I can maybe think of is "Oh the geth are good guys now").

You could also skip ME1, just play ME2 and you will have a very good idea of what is going on.

Add to that, that the story and dialogue were far superior in ME2, and you could say that the first game was just an experiment in which they tried to blend RPGs and shooters, and that ME2 is the happy, improved result of that particular experiment - a far superior game.

Actually, I always viewed ME 1 had the supperior over-all story. ME2 just had supperior graphics and side-quests.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 04 mai 2011 - 11:08 .

[Lurker 2277]

It is almost hard to beleive some people are getting upset over a game they won't play until next year and have barely any info about.

[Kusy]

Seriously tho, I really find it annoying how some people patronize or even insult others because of a choice they made in a video game. Speculation and fanboy rage apart, grade school children do that.

[The Spamming Troll]

MrDizaztar wrote...

Great another one of these "I hate Mass Effect 2 because it was pointless." First off we don't know to what extent Mass Effect 2's decisions have an effect on Mass Effect 3, but I am pretty sure the major decisions regrading the Genophage, the Geth/Quarian relationships, and the Collector Base are going to have a major impact on the damn story.
Also to your argument on the Antagonist, remember Saren was killed in battle with Shepard, so yeah unless a secret Turian Terrorist Organization came up with their own Lazarus Project, I suggest thinking about that for a second.
My idea is that the reason why Mass Effect 2 introduced the Collectors so that we can understand that Huskified enemies that aren't mindless zombies don't come to a shock to us. Also it allows us to understand how advance the Reaper Technology was. Hell lets just say that all middle entries of trilogies are pointless.

the thing is once ME3 comes out, ME2 will very much become pointless. i dont mean in the same way you might think ME1 wouldnt be worthwhile because we all know ME1 is the mass effect experience. but i am saying it becasue ME3 is the game ME2 should have been. so going from ME2 to a game exactly like it with a much better story, modable weapons, more amor, probably better skills, liara-booty, and the conclusion of the trilogy weve spent 5 years following, i dont think anyones going back to ME2s garbage. or maybe not.

[Someone With Mass]

Remove the story from ME1, and it'd been a pretty lame game. That's pretty much the only thing that made me go forward, when some stupid mountain was in the way, or I had to counter some guy's Immunity.

I'm actually glad ME2 went for the gameplay a little more and better, so it doesn't feel so dragging.

And with some luck, ME3 will be even better on that front, mixed with a good feel and story.

[Sapienti]

What was the point of ME2? Improve the gameplay and increase revenue der. ME2 was the necessary filler between games to experiment and tweak the formula for the third go. You'll see that in a lot of trilogies, first is loved, second is polarizing, third is a mixture of what worked best with the first two. ME2 was a nice exercise of storytelling on a smaller scale. They had you put together a team for the purpose of taking down a filler enemy but the point wasn't the enemy you were going after, it was the journey along the way, caring about the characters you picked up and making them loyal.

Everything else were simply plot devices to move the story forward but that doesn't mean its pointless. Correct me if I'm wrong Undertone but you haven't played ME3 yet so you don't know why the Cerberus is trying to kill Shepard, there could be a very good reason as to why he's turned on him a couple months later. Also, I have to agree with MR. Kusy, you sound like a complete tool when you talk about "Bioware's foster kids the Paragons". The very idea is just stupid, and your example is even stupider "Hm, give the base to Cerberus? Sure what could possibly go wrong" and then you get angry when something does go wrong? What'd you expect from the guy who set you up several times throughout the game?

Anyway, ME2 was like a really good filler episode of a show that was also laced with canon and lore, you won't know what was and wasn't truly pointless until we get all the details pertaining to the ME3 plot.

[nikki191]

DarthCaine wrote...

Plus, in Retribution, it's specifically said they'll continue the Collector experiments on humans

sigh i am not cleaning up that mess.. its why i never give cerberus the base, it doesnt matter what cerberus' intentions are they always end up creating a huge ass mess that needs to be cleaned up. personally i think cerberus are almost as dangerous to galactic security as the reapers are..

how will civilisation end.. reapers? a cerberus experiment gone wrong?