331 réponses à ce sujet

[Terror_K]

centauri2002 wrote...

Or a comparison could be drawn with one of your friends making a mistake and you ditching them even though they've consistently been a good friend over the years.

Except... BioWare aren't your friend. They make games. They're attempting to be a profitable business. Yes, they failed in this one game but it's one mistake. Some people are willing to wait and see if they attempt to learn from it whilst others are damning them for it. I don't see the point in wasting my energy doing the latter so I'll just play the waiting game. There are plenty of other games to occupy me in the meantime. My gaming life does not hinge on BioWare. >.>

I didn't ditch them; they ditched me and decided to start hanging out with the wrong crowd just because they're the popular ones. At the moment BioWare reminds me of going to an old high school reunion and finding one of your old friends suddenly hanging around with the people you most hated and being awkwardly embarassed to be seen talking with you when you approach them as if to say, "I'm one of the popular people now, I can't be seen with the likes of a nerd like you!" without directly saying it.

It's not just one mistake either, and even if it wasn't they've shown no indication of even admitting to it, let alone trying to fix it. Quite the contrary with Laidlaw basically saying that he and his team did no wrong, all the changes they made were correct and that it's our fault that we didn't like it. And that is the main issue as far as I'm concerned: that those behind it can't even admit to their mistakes. If it were just DA2 then I would have posted this about a month and a half ago when I'd first finished the game.

[Centauri2002]

AshiraShepard wrote...

Curious question for other people, how many of you are writers? Specifically of things that are of notable length and take a while to develope and get right. I'm not making an accusation, just pointing something out...

It took just over five years for me to be happy with the state of my book. This includes writing over top of my old writing, and re-writing the entire thing about four times plus one for writing over top the old. Some things have been accidentally left in because I didn't notice until it was too late.

Doing the second one, if I add in having the number of followers/fans or whatever that Bioware has, how many opinions those fans have and their expectations...

I really don't grudge them if they slip up. That's a lot of pressure to please people.

And then they see the 100th thread like this and end up going, "oh f*ck it! This was pointless."

But I could be totally wrong.

Maybe that's why you and I have a slightly more lenient view on it. 

At the end of the day, people make mistakes. The important thing is that something is learned from that.

@Terror_K: Okay, humourous comparison aside, I do concede that not admitting to making a mistake is a pretty ridiculous thing to do. Just a quick line to say that they had, perhaps, rushed it out too quickly would appease a great many people, I think. I can't really argue that.

Modifié par centauri2002, 04 mai 2011 - 11:30 .

[Master Shiori]

Terror_K wrote...

After reading Laidlaw's comments in the May Game Informer that's what I've decided. As long as this guy is in charge and continues to think without apology that DA2 was a step in the right direction I have no interest in the Dragon Age universe any more. And if his opinions on what happened to DA2, what those of us who feel it's "dumbed down" should think and do, and where RPGs are going now are indicative and representative of BioWare as a whole, then I get the feeling once ME3 is out the door I'll be done with BioWare as a company too.

You guys brought me in with Baldur's Gate, and I've bought almost every one of your games since. I've been a long and loyal fan and sung your praises for over a decade, but the last few years have felt like a betrayal, first with Mass Effect 2 becoming "Fisher Price: My First RPG" and more recently with the shallow, mainstreamlined abomination that is Dragon Age 2. And what bothers me more is not the fact of how disappointing the game was, but that the people behind it can't even admit to its faults and one of the main guys in charge has the gall to constantly imply that it's our fault and that he and his team could do no wrong.

Sorry, but enough is enough. I can only be loyal and respectful to a company for so long, and when they seem to constantly and without apology stab me in the back, it gets to a point where I just say, "no more!" If you're going to give me the middle-finger for no other reason than to appeal to a more mainstream, action-oriented audience then I can give it right back and walk away.

So that's it. For me the entire Dragon Age IP consists of merely two novels, one game and an expansion. A shame, since it had so much potential, only to be wasted with retooling and rebooting. PM me in a few years if you stop pandering to the mainstream and start making deep RPGs again instead of dumbing everything down for the masses. If you want me back I'll probably be wandering somewhere between Bethesda and Obsidian. They may not quite deserve the worship that BioWare once did, but they sure deserve my time and money more than they do at the moment.

Ironic that a company that so cherises such things as morality and loyalty can't even practice what it preaches...

BioWare +50 Renegade points
Terror_K disapproves -50
Loyalty Lost

Farewell and all that jazz. 

Don't let the door slam you on the way out.

[Ashira Shepard]

Terror_K wrote...

I didn't ditch them; they ditched me and decided to start hanging out with the wrong crowd just because they're the popular ones. At the moment BioWare reminds me of going to an old high school reunion and finding one of your old friends suddenly hanging around with the people you most hated and being awkwardly embarassed to be seen talking with you when you approach them as if to say, "I'm one of the popular people now, I can't be seen with the likes of a nerd like you!" without directly saying it.

Oh lolz have been had good madam.

Terror_K wrote...

It's not just one mistake either, and even if it wasn't they've shown no indication of even admitting to it, let alone trying to fix it. Quite the contrary with Laidlaw basically saying that he and his team did no wrong, all the changes they made were correct and that it's our fault that we didn't like it. And that is the main issue as far as I'm concerned: that those behind it can't even admit to their mistakes. If it were just DA2 then I would have posted this about a month and a half ago when I'd first finished the game.

I could both agree and disagree with your point here.

I agree writers have the right to write what they're comfortable with, where it will go and if they want to take a new direction with something they are creating.

I disagree that they should need to apologize for doing the above HOWEVER - if they make a comment on it, there's no need to be a douche. I would apologize because I'm a doormat like that, unless it was something tedious.

[Terror_K]

AshiraShepard wrote...

Curious question for other people, how many of you are writers? Specifically of things that are of notable length and take a while to develope and get right. I'm not making an accusation, just pointing something out...

It took just over five years for me to be happy with the state of my book. This includes writing over top of my old writing, and re-writing the entire thing about four times plus one for writing over top the old. Some things have been accidentally left in because I didn't notice until it was too late.

Doing the second one, if I add in having the number of followers/fans or whatever that Bioware has, how many opinions those fans have and their expectations...

I really don't grudge them if they slip up. That's a lot of pressure to please people in such a short time.

And then they see the 100th thread like this and end up going, "oh f*ck it! This was pointless."

But I could be totally wrong.

I"m a writer myself actually. Even did a bit of semi-professional writing for a national magazine, but mostly write personally. It took me two years to write the story in my sig, and a fair bit of work to get there. I'll admit that that's not easy.

But the thing is, the Dragon Age 2 team didn't exactly "slip up" as you put it. They deliberately and purposefully did what they did to the game. Laidlaw himself said as much himself on numerous occasions. It's one thing to make a mistake, but it's another thing entirely to intentionally sabotage, semi-reboot and derail the series intentionally. I'm sure some will point to the pressure from EA to get it out quick, but that's still no excuse for many of the problems, including unnecessary things like the complete artistic/visual redesigning of the Dragon Age IP as a whole and the removal of the tactical view for PC players. DA2 wasn't a bad accident, it was an intentional mainstreamlining of the game and IP.

[LiquidGrape]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

"I bought a dozen games from you that I loved, but I don't like this one, so I'm finished with the IP," isn't loyalty. That's like saying you're loyal to your friends but only when they're fun to be around.

No, it's like saying you're no longer loyal to your friend because they kicked you in the crothch and stoled $60 out of your wallet.  Your shocked that your friend would do this to you, and your friend feels that they have done no wrong and it's your fault for feeling that way.

Actually, a more accurate simile would be a close friend selling you a possession you ultimately didn't like, and you reacting as if the friend had kicked you in the crotch and stolen $60 out of your wallet.

Terror_K wrote...
It's one thing to make a mistake, but it's another thing entirely to intentionally sabotage, semi-reboot and derail the series intentionally.

Pardon me, but I can't ignore this. If you're so delusional as to think the creative team behind Dragon Age 2
actually set out to "intentionally sabotage" a product into which they had previously poured their overworked waking hours, I think I'd consider it a blessing to be rid of your business.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 04 mai 2011 - 11:48 .

[Jerrybnsn]

No, comparing loyalty of a company that produces goods and/or services to that as a loyalty to a friend throws the entirel analogy towards my statement.

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 04 mai 2011 - 11:43 .

[Wozearly]

Ashira, slip ups are bound to happen. No-one is ever going to be perfectly pleased - and for me, DA:O set the bar so damn high for future story-driven RPGs that DA2 was always going to need a running jump to top it.

...and lets be honest, a lot of Bioware stalwarts are willing to tolerate a plethora of minor screwups. In any game of that size, there are going to be lots of oddities and bugs and, chances are, things that the creators wanted to include but ran out of time. If that was all DA2 did wrong, I'd be mildly annoyed but still happy.

For me, the deviation in 'feel' was what did it for me. So many things shifted about the style, substance and the way that the game played and progressed compared to Origins that I completely sympathise with the significant number of people who loved the original but were underwhelmed by the sequel.

I'm hoping there's a happier ground between the 'dumbed down' look and feel of DA2 and the truly hardcore RPG some people would prefer to return to. For me, DA:O hit that balance squarely on the head, so a return in that direction would be welcomed.

Equally, I'm sure there are a ton of people who preferred the directions taken with ME and DA2 who will line up to disagree with me.

[Ashira Shepard]

Terror_K wrote...
I"m a writer myself actually. Even did a bit of semi-professional writing for a national magazine, but mostly write personally. It took me two years to write the story in my sig, and a fair bit of work to get there. I'll admit that that's not easy.

But the thing is, the Dragon Age 2 team didn't exactly "slip up" as you put it. They deliberately and purposefully did what they did to the game. Laidlaw himself said as much himself on numerous occasions. It's one thing to make a mistake, but it's another thing entirely to intentionally sabotage, semi-reboot and derail the series intentionally. I'm sure some will point to the pressure from EA to get it out quick, but that's still no excuse for many of the problems, including unnecessary things like the complete artistic/visual redesigning of the Dragon Age IP as a whole and the removal of the tactical view for PC players. DA2 wasn't a bad accident, it was an intentional mainstreamlining of the game and IP.

They thought what they were doing was a better way of doing it.

Either that or EA has them by the balls.

I wasn't too bothered by the lack of tactical view, I got used to it. The only thing that actually really unsettled me was the ending and over arcing story line. And only then because it got so dark. I'm not a fan of stories where there is no good ending, even if I 'like' writing such things. But that's a personal preference, it doesn't mean Bioware should tailor the game to my tastes.

"unnecessary things like the complete artistic/visual redesigning"

And now this troubles me. My writing style is different now from when I first did my book. So I know the second book will seem different. When I did the first I didn't really think about the scale of it; in the second after much exposure to different stories through film/literature/gaming I fret about it constantly and have a ton of lore that wasn't previously there.

Does this mean someone is going to try and ****** all over me from the internet for "RUINING IT FOREVAH!"?

"intentionally sabotage, semi-reboot and derail the series intentionally"

Makes perfect sense for them to deliberately try and ruin the sales of the thing that pays for their food.

Modifié par AshiraShepard, 04 mai 2011 - 11:46 .

[Pygmali0n]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

No, comparing loyalty of a company that produces goods and/or services to that as a loyalty to a friend throws the entirely analogy towards my statement.

Come off it - companies would kill to have that kind of relationship with their customer - that's why this forum is here!

Great OP TerrorK - well expressed and well worth repeating. Everything is a recycling of something else - almost everything has been said before about anything - including diehard fanboy responses to lacklustre rushed games - so why criticise that? Besides, don't troll clearly titled threads if you know you won't understand or even try to understand where the poster is coming from.

LiquidGrape wrote...

Terror_K wrote...
It's one thing to make a mistake, but it's another thing entirely to intentionally sabotage, semi-reboot and derail the series intentionally.

Pardon me, but I can't ignore this. If you're so delusional as to think the creative team behind Dragon Age 2
actually set out to "intentionally sabotage" a product into which they had previously poured their overworked waking hours, I think I'd consider it a blessing to be rid of your business.

That is overreaction, but I can see where it comes from. It does feel like Bioware have deliberately slashed their canvas - and with Laidlaw beligerantly defending DA2 like he means it, like the deadline had nothing to do with the change of styles, then it's hard to understand what the hell happened to make DA2 the way it is.

Modifié par Pygmali0n, 04 mai 2011 - 11:54 .

[Wozearly]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

No, comparing loyalty of a company that produces goods and/or services to that as a loyalty to a friend throws the entirely analogy towards my statement.

To be honest, the lead guys at Bioware should be quietly grinning that a number of people are saying that they have loyalty to the company and/or the team there. Frankly, there aren't many game companies that can genuinely say that's the case...and if you want to slap a cold, hard, business hat on it then that's a fan base which will reliably mobilise to buy what you produce, advocate it to others and tolerate screwups more than newcomers would.

...and if you look at how people like David Gaider and Chris Priestly talk to the community on the forums, you get the full mix of genuinely open discussion, guarded comments, unsuspected insights, dripping sarcasm and flagrant put-downs. That's pretty darn rare, given that most companies prefer employees to present a bland, professional persona to their customers...but not so risky when the majority can be expected to give you a reasonably warm response.

Of course, the dark side of this emotional investment is that the fan base will turn and savage Bioware if they feel that their trust has been betrayed. A move away from the style and feel of traditional Bioware games, particularly whilst within the same franchise, was always going to risk that kind of a response.

[Jerrybnsn]

Pygmali0n wrote...

Come off it - companies would kill to have that kind of relationship with their customer - that's why this forum is here!

.

I'm defending the OP from those saying he's being extreme.  Because what is basically being said is : a loyal customer is disatisfied with a product enough that they are informing the company they will no longer be patronizing their product anymore.  The game's friendship/rivialry system is playfully used to this point.  That in turns draws criticism that they are acting too extreme to the company.

Hence why I wrote it's like a kick in the crotch.

[Shadowbanner]

Yay! Yet another bickering thread.

*He goes to fetch some popcorn*

This is better than cable tv, and free.

[astreqwerty]

i lold

[Pygmali0n]

Apologies Jerry - that'll teach me to rush these boards in my lunch hour - I'll stick with reading for the time being.

Modifié par Pygmali0n, 04 mai 2011 - 12:03 .

[Jerrybnsn]

Pygmali0n wrote...

Apologies Jerry - that'll teach me to rush these boards in my lunch hour - I'll stick with reading for the time being.

no problem.  I'm not a very articulate person when I'm only on my second cup of cofee.

[Terror_K]

AshiraShepard wrote...

"unnecessary things like the complete artistic/visual redesigning"

And now this troubles me. My writing style is different now from when I first did my book. So I know the second book will seem different. When I did the first I didn't really think about the scale of it; in the second after much exposure to different stories through film/literature/gaming I fret about it constantly and have a ton of lore that wasn't previously there.

Does this mean someone is going to try and ****** all over me from the internet for "RUINING IT FOREVAH!"?

That depends. Are you deliberately changing things in your stories and throwing consistency and integrity aside to merely go for style over substance and go for "the rule of cool" just to appeal to a more mainstream audience? Are you going to be writing more for existing fans who love your previous work and want more, or merely for the $$$ and popularity of potential new ones if it means leaving your principles and previous style behind? Is your writing going to be a product of your love, dedication and person fulfillment, or just something to knock out and make a quick buck every year?

The thing is, most of the changes made for DA2 weren't changes made to appeal to the existing fans, but changes made to appeal to the complainers who didn't quite get into it and the potential new, more mainstream audience. The people who complained about DAO being "too Tolkien" and "generic fantasy" etc. weren't those who became big fans of the IP, but the so-called "professional" reviewers and critics, and the more casual fans. Simply put: BioWare didn't make the changes to appeal to their fans, they only made them to try and bring in others.

It's another symptom of BioWare's overall problem these days: they want to have their cake and eat it too, i.e. they want to keep all their old-school fans who have been with them through thick and thin, raised on Baldur's Gate, NWN and/or KotOR, etc. as well as bring in the new mainstream audiences by appealing to the CoD generation and more casual, action-game fan. The problem is, quite often the very things they have to bring in and kick out of their RPGs in order to bring in the latter fans are the very things that the former fans don't want and will greatly miss respectively. And in the end, we have these silly half-breed action RPGs that don't end up pleasing either audience fully: classic RPG fans find them dumbed down, and the ones they try and bring in still find them too complex and talky, even in their RPG-Lite state.

"intentionally sabotage, semi-reboot and derail the series intentionally"

Makes perfect sense for them to deliberately try and ruin the sales of the thing that pays for their food.

Except when you think you can get a bigger audience and more sales and thus get even nicer food by doing that very thing. BioWare see the way the wind is blowing... they see the big money rakers are the more simple games: the Call of Duty's, the Gears of Wars, the Halo's, etc. They feel that by tapping that audience they will get more pie, and who cares if the old has to be thrown out to bring in the new as long as the new means more $$$.

Modifié par Terror_K, 04 mai 2011 - 12:13 .

[Jerrybnsn]

Terror K is winning this arguement hands down. You go girl! or dude.

[Bratt1204]

Terror_K wrote...

After reading Laidlaw's comments in the May Game Informer that's what I've decided. As long as this guy is in charge and continues to think without apology that DA2 was a step in the right direction I have no interest in the Dragon Age universe any more. And if his opinions on what happened to DA2, what those of us who feel it's "dumbed down" should think and do, and where RPGs are going now are indicative and representative of BioWare as a whole, then I get the feeling once ME3 is out the door I'll be done with BioWare as a company too.

You guys brought me in with Baldur's Gate, and I've bought almost every one of your games since. I've been a long and loyal fan and sung your praises for over a decade, but the last few years have felt like a betrayal, first with Mass Effect 2 becoming "Fisher Price: My First RPG" and more recently with the shallow, mainstreamlined abomination that is Dragon Age 2. And what bothers me more is not the fact of how disappointing the game was, but that the people behind it can't even admit to its faults and one of the main guys in charge has the gall to constantly imply that it's our fault and that he and his team could do no wrong.

Sorry, but enough is enough. I can only be loyal and respectful to a company for so long, and when they seem to constantly and without apology stab me in the back, it gets to a point where I just say, "no more!" If you're going to give me the middle-finger for no other reason than to appeal to a more mainstream, action-oriented audience then I can give it right back and walk away.

So that's it. For me the entire Dragon Age IP consists of merely two novels, one game and an expansion. A shame, since it had so much potential, only to be wasted with retooling and rebooting. PM me in a few years if you stop pandering to the mainstream and start making deep RPGs again instead of dumbing everything down for the masses. If you want me back I'll probably be wandering somewhere between Bethesda and Obsidian. They may not quite deserve the worship that BioWare once did, but they sure deserve my time and money more than they do at the moment.

Ironic that a company that so cherises such things as morality and loyalty can't even practice what it preaches...

BioWare +50 Renegade points
Terror_K disapproves -50
Loyalty Lost

The best thing you can do is NOT spend your money buying their games any longer. They couldn't care less about what people post in these forums - it's all about how much they profit on their games. I did not buy Awakenings or DA:2 because I KNEW they would be an utter waste of my time and money. DA:O was such an outstanding game- it truly saddens me that they have not continued with the Origins style, RPG elements and outstanding storyline that gives the game such great replay-abililty.

Modifié par Bratt1204, 04 mai 2011 - 12:19 .

[Ashira Shepard]

What would you call a gamer who played the likes NWN, KotOR, DAO and such and liked them but also liked all of Mass Effect and DA2?

Probably some ungodly abomination of Bioware working voodoo.

*sigh* I give up. I'll put my arguing energy towards different threads. Where's a gay hate thread I can mock? (note, not mature discussion, pure childish hate)

[Sabriana]

You see, that's just something I can't wrap my own logic around. If you want to go for a new audience to add to your existing one, go ahead. Nothing wrong with that. They're a business, and that's what businesses do, after all.

What I can't follow with my thought-process is "why Dragon Age?" It's, imo, the worst IP to try and yank into several directions at once. It simply doesn't mix well with anime/h&s/action/whatever. It's a fantasy RPG without guns, without ninjas, without super-powered characters. Of all three titles, ME, JE, and DA, DA is the single most ill-equipped title to try appealing to the mass market, imo.

ME has guns. JE has ninjas (well, sort of), both are excellent titles to make hybrids out of, that would appeal to more than one niche at the same time. The mass market is brutal, the competition is fierce. ME would have a chance, and if done well, so would the continuation of JE. But Dragon Age is least suitable, so why pick that one?

Well, I'm not a business person, and I'll never pretend to be. Who knows why they made a decision that makes no sense to me.

Disclaimer: The above is my opinion/personal view only. Your mileage may vary. No, I don't hate DA 2, I think it was very average, and on par with a myriad of other hybrids out there for a much cheaper price. Yes, I'm still bitter that I rushed out and paid 56 euros for a game that's worth half that, imo. I'm an idiot, I admit it.

I would still buy it. As a spin-off, not a sequel. For 25 euros. Yes, indeed.

[LiquidGrape]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

No, comparing loyalty of a company that produces goods and/or services to that as a loyalty to a friend throws the entirel analogy towards my statement.

Wait, so when you use that device for the sake of argument it is alright, but when I do the same to point out what I perceived to be a fallacy in your argument, it's not?

You brought up the whole "friend" simile in the first place. I simply elaborated.

Terror_K wrote...

...Are you deliberately changing things in your stories and throwing consistency and integrity aside to merely go for style over substance and go for "the rule of cool" just to appeal to a more mainstream audience? Are you going to be writing more for existing fans who love your previous work and want more, or merely for the $$$ and popularity of potential new ones if it means leaving your principles and previous style behind? Is your writing going to be a product of your love, dedication and person fulfillment, or just something to knock out and make a quick buck every year?

Who are you to say that the team behind DA2 didn't do it for their love and dedication to the project?
You do realise that the average pay for a game developer isn't nearly proportional to their amount of work?
Take issue with the product if you feel so urged, absolutely. But I fail to see how you have any right to make such rude and baseless assumptions.

I'm frankly sick of this ongoing demonisation of the developers as though they had an agenda to knowingly alienate a select group of people.

The thing is, most of the changes made for DA2 weren't changes made to appeal to the existing fans, but changes made to appeal to the complainers who didn't quite get into it and the potential new, more mainstream audience.

That's precious. "The complainers". So you reduce previous dissenters to that label, but when you present your personal complaints they are suddenly the legitimate concerns of a loyal customer?

Stay classy.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 04 mai 2011 - 12:42 .

[Terror_K]

AshiraShepard wrote...

What would you call a gamer who played the likes NWN, KotOR, DAO and such and liked them but also liked all of Mass Effect and DA2?

Probably some ungodly abomination of Bioware working voodoo.

I wouldn't go that far. Perhaps "odd" would be the term that best comes to mind initially. "Blind" if they can't acknowledge or see what BioWare is doing, though if you can and don't really care and/or simply like the games anyway it would just fall back to "odd" again. Moreso with DA2 than with the differences between ME1 and ME2. I just can't understand how anybody who loved DAO and loves deep, proper RPGs could approve of where DA2 went, more because it was trying to be Dragon Age than anything else. To me it's about consistency and staying true to your roots. After all, I enjoyed Jade Empire, but it was even more of a shallow action-RPG than DA2 was, but that's okay to me because it was never trying to be anything else.

Dragon Age started off as trying to be BioWare going back to their roots and once again making a proper, deep, old-school fantasy RPG but with current gen polish and style with the PC as the lead platform. And now suddenly that entire premise has gone down the toilet as soon as the second game and we have another oversimplified, mainstreamlined half-cast action RPG for the console market. The whole thing feels almost like a bait-and-switch from BioWare: let's hook you in with promises with the first game, then completely change the modus operandi before it's barely even cooled. DAO may not have been fresh in the grand scheme of gaming, but it was a breath of fresh air in a time where console-oriented action titles dominate the market, and now it's sequel just decides to be another one and fall in amongst the rest of the generic dross.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if BioWare really want to tap the more mainstream market, then fine... they can go ahead and do it. But do it with a new IP or at the very least a spin-off, rather than retooling and changing up your existing ones part the way through into becoming something they originally weren't intended to be. If I order a fancy meal at an expensive restaurant I don't expect to just get a plate of fast-food style burgers and fries as the second course and for the staff to just act like that's the norm and that it's still part of the same dining experience.

I already remember a dev stating on the Mass Effect forums when some forumites complained about ME2 being too shooter-focused and RPG-Lite that games like that can sometimes be used as a good way of bridging the gap to stronger RPGs and perhaps then they can get players who don't normally play hardcore RPGs such as DAO into them through that. That's all very well, BioWare, but when you're no longer making hardcore RPGs and are only doing these streamlined, easy-access action-RPG-Lite affairs, what exactly are you weaning these fans onto?

[TEWR]

you know, I posted sometime ago on another thread what people were actually saying.


Through all the fancy wording and everything, really a poster's comment boils down to this: I'm right and you're wrong.


That's what I feel I'm seeing here, though I will not give names as to those people who apply to my statement, lest I be attacked as well.

[Terror_K]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Who are you to say that the team behind DA2 didn't do it for their love and dedication to the project?

I'm basing it off comments regarding many of the changes made to DA2. Almost all of them seemed more driven by profit and pandering than by actually trying to please the existing fanbase.

I'm frankly sick of this ongoing demonisation of the developers as though they had an agenda to knowingly alienate a select group of people.

I don't think they had an agenda to knowingly alienate a select group of people. I do think they had an agenda to deliberately appeal to a different select group of people, and by doing such alienated another, and that they knew this would be the case. As I said before, I believe they want to have their cake and eat it too, and either don't seem to acknowledge that they can't do this with full success, or are simply willing to let some chunks and crumbs fall to the wayside as long as they still get most of it in the end.

That's precious. "The complainers". So you reduce previous dissenters to that label, but when you present your personal complaints they are suddenly the legitimate concerns of a loyal customer?

Stay classy.

Because most of the changes I see made to DA2 weren't complaints that came from fans: they were complaints made by critics or more casual gamers. I don't recall many people on the DAO forums complaining that DAO wasn't distinct enough and was "too Tolkien" or "too generic fantasy" etc.: that was all pretty much stuff from professional review sites. Pretty much all the "silent protagonist" issues were also relegated to critics who felt it was a dated mechanic in an age where most protagonists are voiced, while most fans on the forums realised that it's not dated but is merely a tool one and use or not, and for true depth of roleplaying whereby the player truly controls and defines their character only a silent protagnost can truly fit. I don't recall seeing fans on the DAO forums saying they didn't want to be able to properly equip their party members, they wanted squad banter reduced to select areas, they wanted a sequel half the length and they wanted to only be a human, etc.