331 réponses à ce sujet

[Funkjoker]

Terror_K wrote...

After reading Laidlaw's comments in the May Game Informer that's what I've decided. As long as this guy is in charge and continues to think without apology that DA2 was a step in the right direction I have no interest in the Dragon Age universe any more. And if his opinions on what happened to DA2, what those of us who feel it's "dumbed down" should think and do, and where RPGs are going now are indicative and representative of BioWare as a whole, then I get the feeling once ME3 is out the door I'll be done with BioWare as a company too.

This is so true, Terror_K. While DAO will be remembered as masterpiece, DA2 will never ever get the title of a good RPG. It's a RPG of lowest degree - appealing to the mainstream action masses.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

you know, I posted sometime ago on another thread what people were actually saying.

Through all the fancy wording and everything, really a poster's comment boils down to this: I'm right and you're wrong.

That's what I feel I'm seeing here, though I will not give names as to those people who apply to my statement, lest I be attacked as well.

mrcrusty attacks The Ethereal Writer Redux!

It's not very effective...

[TEWR]

squad banter reduced to select areas?


.....



um..... what?

mrcrusty wrote...

mrcrusty attacks The Ethereal Writer Redux!

It's not very effective...

aw you are a scholar and a gentlemen, appealing to my love of Pokemon

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 mai 2011 - 01:03 .

[Funkjoker]

Terror_K wrote...

That's precious. "The complainers". So you reduce previous dissenters to that label, but when you present your personal complaints they are suddenly the legitimate concerns of a loyal customer?

Stay classy.

Because most of the changes I see made to DA2 weren't complaints that came from fans: they were complaints made by critics or more casual gamers. I don't recall many people on the DAO forums complaining that DAO wasn't distinct enough and was "too Tolkien" or "too generic fantasy" etc.: that was all pretty much stuff from professional review sites. Pretty much all the "silent protagonist" issues were also relegated to critics who felt it was a dated mechanic in an age where most protagonists are voiced, while most fans on the forums realised that it's not dated but is merely a tool one and use or not, and for true depth of roleplaying whereby the player truly controls and defines their character only a silent protagnost can truly fit. I don't recall seeing fans on the DAO forums saying they didn't want to be able to properly equip their party members, they wanted squad banter reduced to select areas, they wanted a sequel half the length and they wanted to only be a human, etc.

QFT. "Two handers are too slow" -> transformation to awesomeness-button for the whole combat!

Oh, and don't forget -- the game was too hard for newbies, so the next game needs to tender them!

At least they try to fix what's not broken.

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 04 mai 2011 - 01:04 .

[TEWR]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

That's precious. "The complainers". So you reduce previous dissenters to that label, but when you present your personal complaints they are suddenly the legitimate concerns of a loyal customer?

Stay classy.

Because most of the changes I see made to DA2 weren't complaints that came from fans: they were complaints made by critics or more casual gamers. I don't recall many people on the DAO forums complaining that DAO wasn't distinct enough and was "too Tolkien" or "too generic fantasy" etc.: that was all pretty much stuff from professional review sites. Pretty much all the "silent protagonist" issues were also relegated to critics who felt it was a dated mechanic in an age where most protagonists are voiced, while most fans on the forums realised that it's not dated but is merely a tool one and use or not, and for true depth of roleplaying whereby the player truly controls and defines their character only a silent protagnost can truly fit. I don't recall seeing fans on the DAO forums saying they didn't want to be able to properly equip their party members, they wanted squad banter reduced to select areas, they wanted a sequel half the length and they wanted to only be a human, etc.

QFT. "Two handers are too slow" -> transformation to awesomeness-button for the whole combat!

At least they try to fix what's not broken.

Um, I did see that complaint about Two Handers being slow coming from fans.


The transformation to swinging like a twig was not needed, but the attack animation needed to be sped up.

Personally, I feel if you're going to use a Two Hander you should start off attacking slow because you're level 1, then as you level up your attack speed gradually increases because you're getting more used to using that as a weapon. Your strength increases, so it's easier to wield and you can put more force into your attacks.

But that's just me

[Funkjoker]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Um, I did see that complaint about Two Handers being slow coming from fans.


The transformation to swinging like a twig was not needed, but the attack animation needed to be sped up.

Personally, I feel if you're going to use a Two Hander you should start off attacking slow because you're level 1, then as you level up your attack speed gradually increases because you're getting more used to using that as a weapon. Your strength increases, so it's easier to wield and you can put more force into your attacks.

But that's just me

Yes. But this was one of the minor aspects that could be improved upon in DA2 by NOT overhauling the whole system. The last bit was what I was referring to ;-). Instead of listenening to fans, they listenend to the mainstream crowd.

And your suggestion is good. However, BioWare thinks differently nowadays. Thanks, Mr. Laidlaw! You're ruining a great series!

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 04 mai 2011 - 01:12 .

[Terror_K]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

squad banter reduced to select areas?

.....


um..... what?

Sorry, I worded that poorly. When I said "squad banter" you're probably thinking of the companions talking to each other. I didn't mean "squad banter" so much as being able to talk to companions as a whole, i.e. DAO's "talk to them anytime!" vs. DA2's "talk to them only at certain key places."

In fact, didn't Awakening get a lot of flak from the community for doing just that? Didn't fans hate that and say they didn't want it any more, and that in future Dragon Age games they wanted full, proper, DAO conversations again? And yet in DA2, we just get more of the Awakening style limited conversations again. Yep... that's really listening to your fans there.

[Sabriana]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

<snip for space>

Um, I did see that complaint about Two Handers being slow coming from fans.

The transformation to swinging like a twig was not needed, but the attack animation needed to be sped up.

Personally, I feel if you're going to use a Two Hander you should start off attacking slow because you're level 1, then as you level up your attack speed gradually increases because you're getting more used to using that as a weapon. Your strength increases, so it's easier to wield and you can put more force into your attacks.

But that's just me

No, it's not just you. I agree, it should be increasing with level. The attack speed, I mean. Personally, I think the combat needed only tweaking, not an overhaul.

The warden shuffle needed to go away. It needed a bit of a speed up, however, speed up both, the PC and party, as well as the attackers. Not just the PC and party. I've only played one complete play-through, I can't force myself to finish my 2nd. But I did have the distinct impression that the attackers in DA 2 moved at the same speed as the attackers in DA:O. Or close to the same speed.

[Gotholhorakh]

I'd like to say that in large part I sympathise with some of the sentiments here, I do feel like a different product range has been switched in after DA:O/Awakenings/the Origins DLC.

I don't see how it can be considered unkind to point it out, because this swap has been done quite constructively, there is intent in the design decisions and choices that have led us to this point.

I also can't really see the problem with people continuing to discuss it since they have still paid their money and unless people do actually make some noise, things don't change, get fixed, etc.

If you stop making the noise before anyone acknowledges you decently, well that's when you really have given up on the franchise, and if more people do that, it certainly doesn't serve the game's userbase well.

I can't relate to the YOU WILL LIKE THIS GAME trolls. I get that you are being defensive, fair enough there, but if your efforts to squash/silence criticism are ever fruitful, that will only be because people stopped caring.

I know when I like a game I'm not very often on the forums because I'm.. you know, playing the game. Being entertained by it and stuff.

IN1 wrote...
Yet another pseudo-intellectual pretentious little ******.

Excuse me, when did this sort of thing start being OK?

(PS: I would have clicked report post if I wasn't so heartily amused at the irony)

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 04 mai 2011 - 01:18 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I think that the combat mechanics of Dragon Age 2 weren't actually bad. As a whole, I would say that they are an improvement on Origins. Mages don't feel as flaky outside of spells, skill trees instead of linear progression was a nice touch. CCCs were a nice touch. No more of the infamous "Grey Warden Shuffle". It actually had good mechanics IMO.

But it was a tad too fast and completely ruined by the encounter and enemy design.

So, have less enemies, make them more powerful and varied with different skillsets requiring different tactics. Bring back things like Overwhelm and the like. Remove the ninja spawns. Remove the exploding enemies. Tone down the nutty animations. Slow down combat a little (but still faster than Origins). Bring back tactical camera for PCs.

If we had that for Dragon Age 3, I think I'd actually be very happy about it.

It's a lot of demands, but really, it's keep the combat mechanics of Dragon Age 2 and use the enemy/encounter design of Dragon Age: Origins.

Others may disagree, obviously.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 04 mai 2011 - 01:17 .

[TEWR]

I think Awakening was a hybrid of the two. And while bad and hated by fans (my first reaction was "I have to talk to a tree to get you to talk to me? Okay sure....", it wasn't horrible.

I enjoy the home base concept, but I feel there should've been at least a few conversations we could have with our companions in each Act whenever we wanted. Not as many as Origins, because that would look horrible imo, but some so that we could be comfortable.

[TEWR]

Sabriana wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

<snip for space>

Um, I did see that complaint about Two Handers being slow coming from fans.

The transformation to swinging like a twig was not needed, but the attack animation needed to be sped up.

Personally, I feel if you're going to use a Two Hander you should start off attacking slow because you're level 1, then as you level up your attack speed gradually increases because you're getting more used to using that as a weapon. Your strength increases, so it's easier to wield and you can put more force into your attacks.

But that's just me

No, it's not just you. I agree, it should be increasing with level. The attack speed, I mean. Personally, I think the combat needed only tweaking, not an overhaul.

The warden shuffle needed to go away. It needed a bit of a speed up, however, speed up both, the PC and party, as well as the attackers. Not just the PC and party. I've only played one complete play-through, I can't force myself to finish my 2nd. But I did have the distinct impression that the attackers in DA 2 moved at the same speed as the attackers in DA:O. Or close to the same speed.

you seem to be the only other person I've seen who has noticed that all the enemies and non-party allies are using Origins style attack animations, giving us an unfair advantage. I thought I was alone there.

*starts tearing up*

[Gotholhorakh]

Am I the only person in the world who thought DA:O combat was, despite a few quirks, mostly sweet - by which I mean, did everyone else play through hours and hours and hours of DA:O hating the combat or something?

You know what, although some people would have us believe that everyone played through DA:O with their eyes closed, teeth gritted, just praying to themselves it would end because the combat was so so terrible, I don't think that's true at all.

I think that most people who enjoyed DA:O and came back for a sequel, probably enjoyed DA:O. It's crazy, I know.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 04 mai 2011 - 01:26 .

[Funkjoker]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Am I the only person in the world who thought DA:O combat was, despite a few quirks, mostly sweet - by which I mean, did everyone else play through hours and hours and hours of DA:O hating the combat or something?

You know what, although some people would have us believe that everyone played through DA:O with their eyes closed, teeth gritted, just praying to themselves it would end because the combat was so so terrible, I don't think that's true at all.

I think that most people who enjoyed DA:O and came back for a sequel, enjoyed DA:O. It's crazy, I know.

What is that? You did not read my post, did you? If you did, you'd know I'm with you, as well as many others.

I'm on my n-th playthrough of DAO and the combat is great. Mods are polishing and fixing most of the combat related issues.

I touched DA2 _1_ time. I'll only play it again for the flags when importing to DA3. Enemies popping out of nowhere, anyone?

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 04 mai 2011 - 01:28 .

[TEWR]

It wasn't terrible, but it wasn't amazing either. It was just something you could handle because it was fairly decent.

I myself loved DA:O. I must've played it over 30 times in the first month I got it.

But Two Handers taking 10 minutes to land one blow is ridiculous.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 mai 2011 - 01:29 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Am I the only person in the world who thought DA:O combat was, despite a few quirks, mostly sweet - by which I mean, did everyone else play through hours and hours and hours of DA:O hating the combat or something?

You know what, although some people would have us believe that everyone played through DA:O with their eyes closed, teeth gritted, just praying to themselves it would end because the combat was so so terrible, I don't think that's true at all.
I think that most people who enjoyed DA:O and came back for a sequel, enjoyed DA:O. It's crazy, I know.

Well no, compared a lot of other real time with pause combat systems, Origins actually did a great job in providing visually satisfying but also tactically rewarding combat without going resorting to cheap visual or design tricks to make it superficially more "visceral" or tactical.

But I understand that a lot of people disagree, and personally, I can play through not-ideal combat as long as it's tolerable and doesn't rely on cheap tricks to give the impression of depth.

I have always preferred either full action gameplay with a reliance on stats and skills ala VtmB, Morrowind, New Vegas and their ilk, or fully turn based tactical combat ala Fallout 1/2, Fire Emblem, FFT, AoD, Dead State and such and such. Have not played games like X-Com or ToEE, though I probably should for old man with cane RPG credits.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 04 mai 2011 - 01:36 .

[Sabriana]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Am I the only person in the world who thought DA:O combat was, despite a few quirks, mostly sweet - by which I mean, did everyone else play through hours and hours and hours of DA:O hating the combat or something?

You know what, although some people would have us believe that everyone played through DA:O with their eyes closed, teeth gritted, just praying to themselves it would end because the combat was so so terrible, I don't think that's true at all.

I think that most people who enjoyed DA:O and came back for a sequel, probably enjoyed DA:O. It's crazy, I know.

Not at all. I didn't hate it. Like I posted, it just needed a bit of tweaking not an overhaul.

Warning! Heavy Sarcasm follows:

Yes. There were millions of people having no fun at all with DA:O praying it would be over. No one played more than once. It was simply a grind. And don't get me started on the Deep Roads. EVERYONE hated them soo much. Don't even get me started with the fade.

The silent protagonist? Why, it was a lifeless corpse with "deer in the headlight" expressions. I had no fun at all. Role-playing? Are you daft? What makes you think I enjoy that sort of thing?

Conversation? Toooo much, waayy to much yakking. I really was upset that they MADE me click on all these words.

Companion customization? Pffft. What? Make me work out the best outfits for my Warden's companion? Hey man, I paid good money for that game, I can expect to have my hand held at least a little, yaknow. /end sarcasm

Sorry, I couldn't resist. This is not a slam against anyone in particular, just something that popped into my head.

@ The Ethereal Writer Redux

There, there. Have a cookie.

True enough though, I didn't see anyone else stating the battle-speed of the attackers and non-party NPCs. I just closed my eyes and threw it out there, wondering if someone would pick up on it.

And you did. Yay, now I know I'm no longer alone

[Gotholhorakh]

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...


What is that? You did not read my post, did you? If you did, you'd know I'm with you, as well as many others.

Heh, I did, but wasn't really replying to your post really, more to the tacit acceptance by a lot of us, and again in this thread, of this notion that DA:O combat was terrible without really examining whether we thought so at the time.

Leaving aside my views on it for a moment, I've seen people who I know loved DA:O and fighting in it, rolling over for the idea that combat in it was rubbish, and I honestly wonder why that's happening.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 04 mai 2011 - 01:46 .

[TEWR]

Sabriana wrote...

@ The Ethereal Writer Redux

There, there. Have a cookie.

True enough though, I didn't see anyone else stating the battle-speed of the attackers and non-party NPCs. I just closed my eyes and threw it out there, wondering if someone would pick up on it.

And you did. Yay, now I know I'm no longer alone

I know. Everywhere I posted that on other DA2 criticism threads (good, bad, and constructive) it just got ignored. I kept saying that if the enemies and non-ally NPCs used the same animations our characters have, people wouldn't hate the combat as much. We'd be fighting them on an even playing field. But I was ignored.

There would inevitably still be hatred and contempt, but it wouldn't be as strong.

I shall gladly take your cookie and NOM away at it.

[Last Darkness]

Merced652 wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

@ OP

Much
like yourself, I was brought to Bioware games via NWN1, and have played
many of them since. And I can empathize that when someone becomes
disppointed in a product or employee, this would create frustration and a
need to do something to change it. And leaving the brand appears to be
the tact you have chosen.

However, I think you are wrong to
attempt to punish the entire company and maybe commonity for your
perceived actions of one, or a single product in which you find
displeasure. Personally, I hope you enjoy ME3, and if your anger wanes,
then scan the forums occasionally to look for games in which you may
find better suited to your desires.

Good luck moving forward!

My thoughts as well, though I guess im in the minority who liked DA2.
Personaly
I love Biowares experimentation with their differant mediums, it helps
prevent the stagnation many other game companies and IPs are prone too.

Its like you almost quoted laidlaw word for word. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

Hmmm and I came up with that independantly as well. This Laidlaw person must be allright.

Elhanan wrote...

Last Darkness wrote...

My thoughts as well, though I guess im in the minority who liked DA2.
Personaly I love Biowares experimentation with their differant mediums, it helps prevent the stagnation many other game companies and IPs are prone too.

After 4E unveiled itself, I made a sim move as the OP, and gave up any further dealings with D&D franchise. And based on the way certain companies mishandled the NWN1 Premium mods, I was quite pleased and excited for Bioware and the new DA franchise. Still am. And I do not believe we are the minority, but more of a less vocal majority, IMO.

So I am somewhat understanding when a sim call to personally boycott a product is made, though I try and refrain from making it from an emotional stance. It does not appear to do much good for either side.

I like the new DND 4e, well at least most of the vanilla release. All the cross class combos and new books have horrible power creep. I thought it made the game system accessable to a more diverse selection of players who normaly wouldnt play DnD and made the game alot more smoother to play and get setup. 
I thought 3.5 was rather clunky.
Im sorry if that comment means im am now "Dead to You" lol

[Tommy6860]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Am I the only person in the world who thought DA:O combat was, despite a few quirks, mostly sweet - by which I mean, did everyone else play through hours and hours and hours of DA:O hating the combat or something?

You know what, although some people would have us believe that everyone played through DA:O with their eyes closed, teeth gritted, just praying to themselves it would end because the combat was so so terrible, I don't think that's true at all.

I think that most people who enjoyed DA:O and came back for a sequel, probably enjoyed DA:O. It's crazy, I know.

Yes, I got that sense from some here already. Honestly, in all of the games I have experienced with combat, Origins was maybe the most realsitic ever.. The movements and the diversity of the movements were incredible. I can make a video, and it wouldn't be enough to express how realistic it was. I really think when swinging a sword, you should still actually see the sword swinging during the action, or has that become worn out now ?

Insta-kill, FTW 

[mousestalker]

Ignoring the over the top sentiment, my problem with DA2 is that I obsessed over DAO. I played the City Elf origin alone at least ten times. I played all the origins at least once, both male and female. I wrote fanfic. I arted. I wallowed in that game.

I've started DA2 four times, finished it twice. I don't have any real urge to revisit it.

That doesn't mean it is a bad game. I have no desire to paddle it on its case and send it outside until it behaves better. But it isn't awesome.

C'est la vie.

[TEWR]

The City Elf and Dwarf Commoner are my least played Origins. My favorites are:

Dwarf Noble
Human Noble
Dalish Elf
Human Mage
Elf Mage
Dwarf Commoner
City Elf

I hated the elven battle voices. That's why Dalish Elf is at number three.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

You don't like City Elf? Heresy!

Though Dwarf Noble is also awesome. I'd rank the two of them at the top, followed by Mage and... idk, probably Dalish than Dwarf Commoner. Human Noble at the bottom. Didn't like it tbh. Sure it got you some cool options later in the game, but the Origin itself wasn't very fun, for me at least.

[Sabriana]

Well, I can say one thing about DA 2. It sure got me over the 'hump' playing dwarven females. I couldn't get over the long arms of the dwarven lasses in DA:O, but after seeing the Zevran impersonator, those disproportionate arms suddenly don't look *that* bad anymore.

So the femDwarf commoner is next. Or maybe the noble. Nah, I'll start with the commoner, perhaps....

*walks away mumbling*