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I'm done with Dragon Age now. The IP is dead to me.


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#301
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mousestalker wrote...

Ignoring the over the top sentiment, my problem with DA2 is that I obsessed over DAO. I played the City Elf origin alone at least ten times. I played all the origins at least once, both male and female. I wrote fanfic. I arted. I wallowed in that game.

I've started DA2 four times, finished it twice. I don't have any real urge to revisit it.

That doesn't mean it is a bad game. I have no desire to paddle it on its case and send it outside until it behaves better. But it isn't awesome.

C'est la vie.


My thoughts exactly, Mouse.

Minus the fanfic... and the artwork... and finishing DA2 twice. Or even once Posted Image

#302
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Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

After reading Laidlaw's comments in the May Game Informer that's what I've decided. As long as this guy is in charge and continues to think without apology that DA2 was a step in the right direction I have no interest in the Dragon Age universe any more. And if his opinions on what happened to DA2, what those of us who feel it's "dumbed down" should think and do, and where RPGs are going now are indicative and representative of BioWare as a whole, then I get the feeling once ME3 is out the door I'll be done with BioWare as a company too.


This is so true, Terror_K. While DAO will be remembered as masterpiece, DA2 will never ever get the title of a good RPG. It's a RPG of lowest degree - appealing to the mainstream action masses.



Agreed.

#303
LiquidGrape

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Terror_K wrote...

I'm basing it off comments regarding many of the changes made to DA2. Almost all of them seemed more driven by profit and pandering than by actually trying to please the existing fanbase.


Which is still not reason enough to make the assumption that the team wasn't committed to the project.
I'll readily agree that Dragon Age 2 needed more development time to truly fulfill all of its inherent potential, but looking at what they achieved with the time and resources they had, I think it's impressive how their artistic integrity shines through so clearly still.
Had DA2 truly been nothing but pandering for profit, it wouldn't have resonated with people to the extent it has.
Naturally it was made for profit. All products are. But I don't think you can reduce it to that one factor.

I don't think they had an agenda to knowingly alienate a select group of people. I do think they had an agenda to deliberately appeal to a different select group of people, and by doing such alienated another, and that they knew this would be the case. As I said before, I believe they want to have their cake and eat it too, and either don't seem to acknowledge that they can't do this with full success, or are simply willing to let some chunks and crumbs fall to the wayside as long as they still get most of it in the end.


The developers never shied away from the fact that they were approaching the material differently. The new aesthetic and singular story was always apparent. If not everyone responded to these changes, I feel for them, but being one who felt the alterations actually added to the source rather than detracted from it, I cannot assume that same stance.
That's a matter of taste. Not objective truth. And neither of us has the faculty to declare ours to be more accurate.

Because most of the changes I see made to DA2 weren't complaints that came from fans: they were complaints made by critics or more casual gamers. I don't recall many people on the DAO forums complaining that DAO wasn't distinct enough and was "too Tolkien" or "too generic fantasy" etc.: that was all pretty much stuff from professional review sites. Pretty much all the "silent protagonist" issues were also relegated to critics who felt it was a dated mechanic in an age where most protagonists are voiced, while most fans on the forums realised that it's not dated but is merely a tool one and use or not, and for true depth of roleplaying whereby the player truly controls and defines their character only a silent protagnost can truly fit. I don't recall seeing fans on the DAO forums saying they didn't want to be able to properly equip their party members, they wanted squad banter reduced to select areas, they wanted a sequel half the length and they wanted to only be a human, etc.


You misunderstand, my concern wasn't the source of the previous critiques, it was your referring to these complaints as though they were unreasonable or misguided, while simultaneously presenting your own as though they were inarguable fact.
Perhaps that was not your intention, but it was how it translated to me.

On the issue of the silent protagonist and such, I defer to artistic freedom. The team wanted to apply a new approach, and they had the conviction to go through with it.
While I think DA2 is far from flawless, I respect the developers for favouring experimentation above complete and utter creative stagnation.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 04 mai 2011 - 02:22 .


#304
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Seriously, what makes Dragon Age 2 a bad game? My only complaints were the small text and lack of different locations (gets a little boring only fighting in Kirkwall), and with my new tv the text problem is no longer an issue.

That said, for me at least the combat even on normal I found more in depth than anything in Mass Effect or in Kotor or an RPG played by me for that matter. A lot of these complaints are unjustified.

#305
Teredan

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LiquidGrape wrote...


Which is still not reason enough to make the assumption that the team wasn't committed to the project.
I'll readily agree that Dragon Age 2 needed more development time, but looking at what they achieved with the time and resources they had, I think it's impressive how much of their artistic integrity shines through.
Had DA2 truly been nothing but pandering for profit, it wouldn't have resonated with people to the extent it has.
Naturally it was made for profit. All products are. But I don't think you can reduce it to that one factor.


For me it isn't in the same vein I also don't find a runner impressive that ties his feet together and finishes a race as the 15th in jumping style when he could have made it 1st. I find that dumb. Simple as that.

#306
LiquidGrape

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Teredan wrote...

For me it isn't in the same vein I also don't find a runner impressive that ties his feet together and finishes a race as the 15th in jumping style when he could have made it 1st. I find that dumb. Simple as that.


Well, I thought the runner finished first. It had a handicap, not to mention a lot of unreasonable expectations laid upon it, but it came out on top in my eyes.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 04 mai 2011 - 02:20 .


#307
Teredan

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LiquidGrape wrote...

Teredan wrote...

For me it isn't in the same vein I also don't find a runner impressive that ties his feet together and finishes a race as the 15th in jumping style when he could have made it 1st. I find that dumb. Simple as that.


Well, I thought the runner finished first. It had a handicap, not to mention a lot of unreasonable expectations laid upon it, but it came out on top in my eyes.


Good for you :). Sad for me I don't like to see games that could be so much better just because companies decided to gimp their developement.

#308
MrProliferation

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Captain Cornhole wrote...

Seriously, what makes Dragon Age 2 a bad game? My only complaints were the small text and lack of different locations (gets a little boring only fighting in Kirkwall), and with my new tv the text problem is no longer an issue.

That said, for me at least the combat even on normal I found more in depth than anything in Mass Effect or in Kotor or an RPG played by me for that matter. A lot of these complaints are unjustified.


Silly rational person! Don't you understand that the only two games that could ever and would ever meet the standards of an RPG in this forum are Baldur's Gate and DAO? Everything else is an "FPS"

#309
macrocarl

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kya169 wrote...

Jean-Funk Van Damme wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

After reading Laidlaw's comments in the May Game Informer that's what I've decided. As long as this guy is in charge and continues to think without apology that DA2 was a step in the right direction I have no interest in the Dragon Age universe any more. And if his opinions on what happened to DA2, what those of us who feel it's "dumbed down" should think and do, and where RPGs are going now are indicative and representative of BioWare as a whole, then I get the feeling once ME3 is out the door I'll be done with BioWare as a company too.


This is so true, Terror_K. While DAO will be remembered as masterpiece, DA2 will never ever get the title of a good RPG. It's a RPG of lowest degree - appealing to the mainstream action masses.



Agreed.


I'm sorry but this is total bull ****. DA2 isn't dumbed down. I am not dumb & I really love the game. I am not mainstream nor am I part of the 'action masses' whatever the **** that means.

#310
TEWR

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Sabriana wrote...

Well, I can say one thing about DA 2. It sure got me over the 'hump' playing dwarven females. I couldn't get over the long arms of the dwarven lasses in DA:O, but after seeing the Zevran impersonator, those disproportionate arms suddenly don't look *that* bad anymore.

So the femDwarf commoner is next. Or maybe the noble. Nah, I'll start with the commoner, perhaps....

*walks away mumbling*


I don't really get all the hate for Zevran. He was still Zevran, even with a more elven looking face. I liked it. I mean, I didn't expect him to have his old face on an elven body.


Human shaped face on elven body =Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Maybe I don't hate the change because I actually expected him to look like that and was personally very happy with how it turned out.

I still have yet to do a Female Dwarf Noble though. Xanthos Aeducan always takes priority. He would've been the best king Orzammar had ever seen. Bhelen was a hack compared to him (see Chapter 1 of my fanfic detailing his life. It's in my blog)

mrcrusty wrote...

You don't like City Elf? Heresy!

Though Dwarf Noble is also awesome. I'd rank the two of them at the top, followed by Mage and... idk, probably Dalish than Dwarf Commoner. Human Noble at the bottom. Didn't like it tbh. Sure it got you some cool options later in the game, but the Origin itself wasn't very fun, for me at least.


It's not that I don't like City Elf. I do. It just wasn't as captivating to me as the noble stories. The Noble stories both detail the character losing everything, while everyone else seems to gain something they never had (well, Dalish Elf didn't really. He lost Tamlen.)

#311
axl99

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MrProliferation wrote...

Captain Cornhole wrote...

Seriously, what makes Dragon Age 2 a bad game? My only complaints were the small text and lack of different locations (gets a little boring only fighting in Kirkwall), and with my new tv the text problem is no longer an issue.

That said, for me at least the combat even on normal I found more in depth than anything in Mass Effect or in Kotor or an RPG played by me for that matter. A lot of these complaints are unjustified.


Silly rational person! Don't you understand that the only two games that could ever and would ever meet the standards of an RPG in this forum are Baldur's Gate and DAO? Everything else is an "FPS"



QFT.

Modifié par axl99, 04 mai 2011 - 02:57 .


#312
Stegoceras

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macrocarl wrote...

I'm sorry but this is total bull ****. DA2 isn't dumbed down. I am not dumb & I really love the game. I am not mainstream nor am I part of the 'action masses' whatever the **** that means.


If you think 'dumbed down' means that the player is dumber, than i can just say *sigh*.
Dumbed down refers to the fact that the learning curve for the game has been decreased, it's easier to pick up and play than a game that has not been 'dumbed down'. It's in no way related to the intteligence of the person who plays it. Neither did they say  'you' were mainstream just because you like DA2, again you misinterpet the meaning. They simply mean DA2 is more geared towards the main market, which doesn't mean you are in that group at all just because you like/love DA2.

Please, carefully read a post and try to understand it before getting offended.

Modifié par Stegoceras, 04 mai 2011 - 02:57 .


#313
Corker

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Sabriana wrote...
I couldn't get over the long arms of the dwarven lasses in DA:O,


You seem to be on PC - there's a mod that fixes the female dwarven arms. 
http://social.biowar...m/project/2850/

#314
Sabriana

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Corker wrote...

Sabriana wrote...
I couldn't get over the long arms of the dwarven lasses in DA:O,


You seem to be on PC - there's a mod that fixes the female dwarven arms. 
http://social.biowar...m/project/2850/


Wonderful, thank you, Corker. I'll get that. I really wanted to play a dwarf female, but the arms always stopped me. I did create two (commoner and noble) and they are beautiful, but the arms, oh the arms. I appreciate the link.


@ The Ethereal Writer Redux

The elves were ugly, imo, and Zevran impersonator was the worst of all. Fenris and Merrill (and Orsino of all people, ah, elves) were quite appealing. The rest were hit with the ugly stick, in my very personal opinion.

Zevran wasn't there. No. Not at all. It was an impersonator. Simple as that. And don't try to tell me differently. I simply won't believe you. Silly impostor. As if I couldn't tell the difference. Pah....:lol:

#315
Elhanan

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I do believe that DA2 is eaier to grasp, but not because it has been dumbed down; because it uses sim mechanics from the past with some new inclusions that work much the same. When it comes to Tech, I am dumb, so I do not mind when the GUI is made more user-Friendly.

And I went into Act 1 before I realized that Skills were no longer chosen, but included in the Attributes. Like some, I miss the non-combat Skills being seperate, as I may not want to pump Cunning like every other Rogue. but it sure was not a game stopper for me.

But seen as easy? Sorry; not for me. I started on Hard (am probably never going to try NM due to Friendly Fire and revamping each Tactical setting), then had a set-back which compelled me to lower the seting to Normal. My actual difficulty of choice now after two sessions would be somewhere twixt these two, so I choose the one using less reloading.

Now somewhere recently, some folks got the idea that this exact same thing ref as a frank suggestion was insulting and abrasive. My thought having seen the remark after having solved my own issues is that it appears to be fairly on target.

*No insult intended; your milage may vary. See special offer inside for details.*

Modifié par Elhanan, 04 mai 2011 - 03:19 .


#316
Captain Sassy Pants

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Mr.House wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

Used to be a time when companies would just use patches to add in things that they didn't have time to finish or perfect before the game launches.

Now, it's via DLC. I think that's the problem Jabba has.

Or, idk.

But yes, I would like some DLC that fixes up the game especially in terms of story and quest content. Obsidian is doing the same thing with their New Vegas DLCs to better flesh out a more personal story for your character.

I don't think DLCs will "fix" Dragon Age 2 from my perspective, unless it completely overhauls a lot of the game, many of my problems lie in design, structures and oversight. DLCs usually don't fix anything like that but good DLCs will undoubtedly make the game better. That's something that's hard to legitimately complain about. Unless they are expensive of course.

Patchs never added new story and such, that's what expansions did, and you had to pay for that.


Tell that to Blizzard about Diablo 2. They've added content (free) via patches. Huge expansions? No, but that doesn't mean you have to pay for every bit of new content.

Hell, tell that to ArenaNet. They added a whole section to Guild Wars, for free.

#317
Siansonea

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I think it's perfectly okay to be dissatisfied with DA2. If you are a DAO fan, and this game wasn't what you were expecting and wasn't what you wanted, I think that's a shame, and you're rightfully disappointed. Expressing that disappointment is only natural.

What isn't natural is characterizing people who like DA2 as wrong/stupid/inferior. I am an intelligent person, and I like DA2 quite a bit. I still like the Mass Effect games better, but that's probably mainly because I tend to favor science fiction over fantasy. I am not a tactician though, I don't derive a lot of enjoyment from many of the classic RPG elements that people miss. I do like customization and choices, but when the game can't move forward if you want to skip those features, that's a problem for me. Even DA2 made me focus on combat much more than I ever wanted to. I've got it down to a system now with auto-attack and finely tweaked Tactics for the squad, and playing the tank/damage dealer while protecting the rogue and two mages has been the easiest combat experience for me. My point is that I have different desires and preferences in gameplay than others, but those desires and preferences don't make me a simpleton, an immature gamer, or any of the derisive names I've been called over the last few months for having the audacity to like DA2. If you don't like DA2, that's okay, but don't bash the people who do like it.

I really like customizable player characters like Hawke and Shepard, I like creating a personality within a story. DA2 was fun for me, because for each of my four main Hawkes, I was able to play through the story differently. I never was able to get very far in Dragon Age Origins. The unvoiced protagonist, a selling point for some players, really felt disconnected to me. Again, that's just my personal preference. If people prefer unvoiced protagonists, that's a perfectly valid personal preference as well. What is unacceptable, though, is when people tell me that I am somehow less intelligent, less imaginative, less whatever else because I prefer a voiced protagonist. That's simply not the case, and it just makes the person saying such things seem bitter and angry.

Of course, it would have been nice to have more story, more options, more everything in DA2. I'm probably never going to accuse a game of having too much content. I didn't like the recycled environments either, it was an obvious time/cost-saving initiative, but it didn't spoil the game for me. There are things about the game that I would definitely improve, but it's been a worthwhile game for me.

I wish that DA2 could have had a different name, so that people weren't expecting it to be a sequel, but rather another story in the Dragon Age universe. I think a huge part of the problem with the game is simply the 2 on the end of the title. Some people would still have expected it to be a sequel, even if it was called Dragon Age Champion, Dragon Age Schism or Dragon Age Kirkwall.

#318
Captain Sassy Pants

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Really? So you're telling me its impossible to be loyal at point A, but due to circumstances not be loyal by point B? Its totally binary?


"I bought a dozen games from you that I loved, but I don't like this one, so I'm finished with the IP," isn't loyalty. That's like saying you're loyal to your friends but only when they're fun to be around.


Loyalty is also a two way street.

If my friends start treating me like garbage, should I keep hanging out with them?

So, in your words, even though I hate this game, I should buy it and all other games they make regardless of how much I might dislike them, to prove my loyalty.

Give.Me.A.Break.

#319
Elhanan

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Sabriana wrote...

@ The Ethereal Writer Redux

The elves were ugly, imo, and Zevran impersonator was the worst of all. Fenris and Merrill (and Orsino of all people, ah, elves) were quite appealing. The rest were hit with the ugly stick, in my very personal opinion.

Zevran wasn't there. No. Not at all. It was an impersonator. Simple as that. And don't try to tell me differently. I simply won't believe you. Silly impostor. As if I couldn't tell the difference. Pah....:lol:


I found the new Elves more alien than ugly; perhaps the purpose. They do remind me more of the old Disney Pinnochio film when the kids are morphing into donkeys.

"Knife-ears? That's not a knife; THIS is a knife! More like a machete!"

I found that the Dalish origin to be the weakest start for me personally, but among the best conclusions. And that the female City-Elf was far better for motivation than the male version. IMO.

And Dwarves rule!

Modifié par Elhanan, 04 mai 2011 - 03:27 .


#320
Captain Sassy Pants

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Bible Doctor wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
I expressed almost the exact same thoughts a week or two ago in a similar thread. Sorry, it's not a hive mind. Some people actually aren't impressed with DA2 and Bioware's new direction. 


I can't speak on your arguments, as I haven't seen them and do not care to. But the majority of DA2 'hate' threads that appear on the forums are ridiculous. The majority of the people expressing their distaste for DA2, do it in the most childish and foolish manner i've ever seen. It literally boils down to 'lol this game sux, it's not exactly like the first game and that means Bioware is full of buttheads'. They are as bad if not worse than the people who blindly say that DA2 is a game without flaws and is the greatest thing since sliced bread, just to combat ignorance with ignorance.

People who discuss their problems with the game in an intelligent and constructive manner are few in number.

Yes, it is a hivemind.



And your comments add what to the discussion, exactly?

Remember the old saying: if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

#321
AkiKishi

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Elhanan wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

@ The Ethereal Writer Redux

The elves were ugly, imo, and Zevran impersonator was the worst of all. Fenris and Merrill (and Orsino of all people, ah, elves) were quite appealing. The rest were hit with the ugly stick, in my very personal opinion.

Zevran wasn't there. No. Not at all. It was an impersonator. Simple as that. And don't try to tell me differently. I simply won't believe you. Silly impostor. As if I couldn't tell the difference. Pah....:lol:


I found the new Elves more alien than ugly; perhaps the purpose. They do remind me more of the old Disney Pinnochio film when the kids are morphing into donkeys.

"Knife-ears? That's not a knife; THIS is a knife! More like a machete!"

I found that the Dalish origin to be the weakest start for me personally, but among the best conclusions. And that the female City-Elf was far better for motivation than the male version. IMO.

And Dwarves rule!


Humans are supposed to find elves visually appealing.

#322
TEWR

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Sabriana wrote...

@ The Ethereal Writer Redux

The elves were ugly, imo, and Zevran impersonator was the worst of all. Fenris and Merrill (and Orsino of all people, ah, elves) were quite appealing. The rest were hit with the ugly stick, in my very personal opinion.

Zevran wasn't there. No. Not at all. It was an impersonator. Simple as that. And don't try to tell me differently. I simply won't believe you. Silly impostor. As if I couldn't tell the difference. Pah....:lol:


well I won't try to change your view on Zevran. I'm cool with you having your own opinion on him being an impersonator Posted Image

but it was really himPosted Image

as for the elves, some others were pretty nice looking. Lia, the elven daughter you meet in Magistrate's Orders was good looking. The Elves on Sundermount were nice looking, even the darker skinned one. And don't even get me started on how Athenril was incredibly good looking. I'm really hoping for Year 1 DLC that lets us have a romance with her, but when she starts to squeeze more work out of Hawke he/she ends the relationship with a heavy heart.

Elhanan wrote...
I found the new Elves more alien than ugly; perhaps the purpose. They do remind me more of the old Disney Pinnochio film when the kids are morphing into donkeys.

"Knife-ears? That's not a knife; THIS is a knife! More like a machete!"

I found that the Dalish origin to be the weakest start for me personally, but among the best conclusions. And that the female City-Elf was far better for motivation than the male version. IMO.

And Dwarves rule!


I've seen people compare them to the Na'vi from Avatar, but I see them as more akin to the Jak and Daxter type people. Which I like.

#323
Elhanan

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Captain Sassy Pants wrote...

Loyalty is also a two way street.

If my friends start treating me like garbage, should I keep hanging out with them?

So, in your words, even though I hate this game, I should buy it and all other games they make regardless of how much I might dislike them, to prove my loyalty.

Give.Me.A.Break.


Actually, reciprocation is a two-way street. Loyalty is something else, IMO.

If a friend begins to toss you to the curb, some may return the act in kind. That is not loyalty; not even friendship. Anyone placed in a lesser status would be treated the same.

Friends may act with patience, and try to wait and look for reasoning behind the new behaviour. Friends may actually attempt to step away from the self-focused mirror to view others rather than themselves. Loyal friends stand true, despite the varied changes in the weather of the relationship; not walk away when the money and perks stop flowing.

So, in your words: Give me a break. Posted Image

#324
Khayness

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axl99 wrote...

MrProliferation wrote...

Silly rational person! Don't you understand that the only two games that could ever and would ever meet the standards of an RPG in this forum are Baldur's Gate and DAO? Everything else is an "FPS"



QFT.


That's why games like Planescape Torment, Alpha Protocol, The Witcher, etc. gets praised here.

Those are good FPS games, indeed.

#325
Elhanan

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BobSmith101 wrote...

Humans are supposed to find elves visually appealing.


That explains the ears then; look like bananas! Posted Image