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[Paeyne]

I was writing this as a response in the general forums to a recent thread and I realized I could not give the response I wanted in a non-spoiler forum so I have posted it here.  The question was whether we wanted more sex and romance in future DA games. 

I am all for romance in RPGs and certainly a healthy dose of sensuality never hurts,  Your relationships with the companions is one of the driving forces behind this and a few other Bioware series.  It is one of the reasons I buy Dragon Age. 

The only real reason to include romance options is to promote emotional connection.  Do we need more romance in this series?  Well, more is usually good but not always better.  We have a large number of romance options in DA2 but I would argue that does not necessarily mean we have better options than we have had in the past.  I even wonder as I romance the characters in DA2 if travelling with some of these people is a good idea, never mind emotional involvement.  
 
For the record, I usually play male characters.  Unlike some, I have no issues with romancing all the options as I am secure enough in my own sexual identity that I am not threatened by whatever a video game puts out.  Through my playthroughs I romanced all the characters that were available to me and was left with the overwhelming feeling of "why did I bother".  Do we need more romance in Dragon Age or is the more accurate question:  Do we need romance in Dragon Age done well? 
 
Lets face it.  Hawke is the Thedas equivalent of Justin Bieber, with half the city falling all over themselves to get to him and the other half nailing hate mail written in blood to his door.  Were this real life, Hawke would have
reasonable grounds to lock himself in his manor and leave Kirkwall to its own devices.  However that is not an option, so lets look at the people he can actually romance (out of the many he could have romanced that approach something close to normal). 

 
Isabella:   Would any reasonable person want a romantic relationship with someone that needs 20 minutes to disarm before sex or practically has an orgasm upon finding enough poison to kill every person in Kirkwall twice over.  I have read some of the comments about her being a strong woman that owns her sexuality.  I think Isabella would laugh at that.  Even she admits to how shallow she is and is actually quite proud of the fact.  Anyone
who has a relationship with Isabella would have a full time job keeping her happy or, alternatively, stand behind her and keep an antidote potion on them at all times.  The thrill of danger might be great in the short term but would be very wearing after a while. 
 
Sebastian:   I didn't romance him because I haven't played as a female character yet.  Given the stick he has crammed far enough up his butt to make him walk funny, I find the fact he isn't interested in men mildly ironic.  I can just picture a glass-eyed Hawke and Sebastian a decade from now discussing which prep school to send their 2.3 children to. 
 
Anders:   Aside from being one the the whiniest characters in the game, one wonders why a non-suicidal Hawke would even consider Anders.  When Anders loses control of Justice (or Vengeance or "spirit of not having a good day and all must pay") he has the annoying tendency of killing people.  I would think that would make sex inconvenient.  I would also worry about the collateral damage of your first fight.  Even if you ignore all that, the fact he lies to you repeatedly and betrays your trust does not bode well for your future relationship. 
 
Merrill:   I am sure there are many who find Merrill's wide eyed naivete appealing.  I am not one.  The problem is that this naivete extends to her belief that she can control demons and blood magic, no matter how often  she is repeatedly proven wrong.  I suppose dating the girl voted most likely to become an abomination might be interesting but hardly healthy.
 
Fenris:   At the risk of offending all the Fengirls out there, I have to wonder why anyone would want a relationship with this man.  Sex maybe, maybe repeatedly, but the kindest phrase you could use about a relationship with Fenris is "high maintenance".  One wonders why Bioware did not have a small black cloud follow him around that rains on cue.  I guess a cloud would have been one reference too far.  His open hostility towards mages during the entirety of the game (keeping in mind that either you are a mage or your sister is) is hardly endearing.  It seems poetic that you find out he actually fought for what was done to him, but even this barely shakes his overwhelming arrogance that all mages are evil.  On at least one occasion I handed him back to Denarius
with a very large bow and a jaunty Santa hat.  I was probably doing him a favour.  At least now his suffering has some meaning and he can be the December pinup for the next Tevinter Sexy Psychopath Calendar. 
 
Varric:   Varric is approaching normal so of course you can't romance him.  For Hawke romance options, only those with warehouses full of baggage need apply. 
 
Aveline:   See Varric 

 
Romances in Bioware games are wonderful things but the ones in DA2 seem absurd and contrived.  If you take a hard look at most of Hawke's companions you have to wonder why he is even friends with some of these people.  What was given
as a Friendship/Rivalry scale might be more accurately described as an Enabler/Antagonizer scale. 
 
So... yes... I would like to see more romance and intimacy in future Dragon Age games.   This is a mature rated game and most of us fit into that category.
 
I would just ask the Devs at Bioware if they would want a relationship with any of these people. 
 
If the answer is no, then I would suggest the next game's romance options not swing between the scary to the insane. 
 
If the answer is yes, then there are several relationship counselors I can recommend and urge you to contact them without delay.

Modifié par Paeyne, 04 mai 2011 - 12:56 .

[frustratemyself]

Lolz it's all true. Sad but true.
I guess the writers figure Hawke has baggage by default, can't inflict that on a sane LI. I like the romances (wouldn't touch Seb or Merrill with a 10 foot barge pole) but they do get a bit Twighlight at times.
A saner LI would have been nice, someone that counters Hawke by being a voice of reason in the menagerie.

Modifié par frustratemyself, 04 mai 2011 - 12:52 .

[Sesshomaru47]

Given that they're all imaginary people who really cares? Not me, though if it wasn't for the whole romance thing DAII would be more than just a moderately crap game as their be little left aside from boring side-quests and a patchy main plot. At least they seem to thread things together. I romanced Fenris on the few playthough's I did to hear the achievement ping sound. Why you ask? Because he's a pretty boy and he sounds like Baltheir,
Also I was a mage and yeah he's a little hostile towards (not without reason if you care to listen to his dialogue, he was nice to me. It was a friendship romance too, not the other crummy kind.

[Plaintiff]

Paeyne wrote...
 
Isabella:   Would any reasonable person want a romantic relationship with someone that needs 20 minutes to disarm before sex or practically has an orgasm upon finding enough poison to kill every person in Kirkwall twice over.  I have read some of the comments about her being a strong woman that owns her sexuality.  I think Isabella would laugh at that.  Even she admits to how shallow she is and is actually quite proud of the fact.  Anyone
who has a relationship with Isabella would have a full time job keeping her happy or, alternatively, stand behind her and keep an antidote potion on them at all times.  The thrill of danger might be great in the short term but would be very wearing after a while.

Being shallow doesn't make her any less strong. Owning your sexuality is about being secure in and upfront with your desires, which Isabela is.
 

Sebastian:   I didn't romance him because I haven't played as a female character yet.  Given the stick he has crammed far enough up his butt to make him walk funny, I find the fact he isn't interested in men mildly ironic.  I can just picture a glass-eyed Hawke and Sebastian a decade from now discussing which prep school to send their 2.3 children to.

Sebastian will never have sex with anyone, ever, it seems, so kids aren't really an issue.
 

Anders:   Aside from being one the the whiniest characters in the game, one wonders why a non-suicidal Hawke would even consider Anders.  When Anders loses control of Justice (or Vengeance or "spirit of not having a good day and all must pay") he has the annoying tendency of killing people.  I would think that would make sex inconvenient.  I would also worry about the collateral damage of your first fight.  Even if you ignore all that, the fact he lies to you repeatedly and betrays your trust does not bode well for your future relationship.

He lies to you once. Admittedly it's about something pretty big, but blowing up chantries gicves me a hard-on anyway, so I'm willing to overlook it. To paraphrase sarcastic-Hawke; who says I'm turned off by crazy?

I don't entirely disagree with your assessments of the remaining characters, buit I don't consider any of them scary or insane. I don't think Aveline or Varric are "normal" either and I find Aveline especially unappealing.

Consider that this is a barbaric fantasy setting and that even within this setting, Hawke's life is more violent than most. He kills people every day as a matter of course. The only way to have a "normal" love interest would be if they weren't a companion, and then you'd almost never see them.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 04 mai 2011 - 04:29 .

[Rifneno]

Isabela:  There's two schools of thought to rationalize an Isabela relationship.  The first being... well.. "**** buddies" I believe is the technical term.   The other being the disasterous "I can fix him/her!" attitude.  Not that that ever ends well, but a lot of people try it.

Sebastian:  "
HATE HATE HATE HATE 
HATE HATE HATE HATE 
HATE HATE HATE HATE 
HATE HATE HATE HATE 
HATE HATE HATE HATE  
HATE HATE HATE HATE" - Kefka

Anders:  I always roll my eyes at people saying characters that have been through hell are whiners.  Gamers prefer a character that eats the souls of live puppies to someone that tells the waiter the mashed potatos are cold.  I just don't get it.  Regardless, he lies once.  After 7 years.  And he tells you right afterwards that he lied if you question him about it.  I do agree it'd be monumentally stupid to get involved with a possessed mage.  Even Anders thinks that though.  He repeatedly warns Hawke against it and will only get involved after Hawke continually shows interest and he says "I've tried to resist, but I'm still just a man, I can only take so much."  Can't really blame him for Hawke making a stupid decision.  Especially when it's actually a decision.  Not, like for instance, "You're a blood mage?!  Where's the nearest templ--...  <monotone voice>  Yes.  Alienage.  We will go there.  I will help you."  Stupid jedi mind trick.

Merrill:  Again, I think this falls into the daft "I can fix them!" mindset.  Either that or you're playing a Hawke that's equally stupid.  Which is certainly possible since Hawke is allowed to make deals with demons.  Honestly, I have no idea how her relationship plays out.  I feel liked a pedophile anytime I try to romance her in a playthrough.  She's about 8 years old mentally.  My pet cockatoo is more intelligent and mature than Merrill.  I think she also appeals to the "damsel in distress" thing that a lot of guys love.  Much as women talk about wanting a knight on a white horse, I think just as many men want to be the knight on a white horse.  It's just a lot harder to be in distress than to be awesome.

Fenris:  A lot of Hawkes totally agree with him about mages.  I suppose they think that either they or Bethany are the exception that proves the rule.  Not that I'm defending stupidity, but acknowledging that stupidity exists.  So if your Hawke doesn't disagree with him about that issue, I don't see a big problem with him.  Well, maybe his decorating tastes.  It's been 7 years man.  Why are there still cobwebs and corpses all over the place?

Varric:  I'm not sure a half-dwarf half-human child anyway.  






Aveline:  I disagree, she has plenty of baggage.  It's all labeled with Wesley's name.  She gets pissy when anyone even mentions him.  Four years later she throws a complete tantrum because Hawke gives her a shield.  And because Wesley had a shield, clearly Hawke is trying to make her forget Wesley or something.  That is not the rationale of a mentally well woman.

[CalJones]

As far as Aveline goes, I guess Bioware didn't want to maker her Jaheira mk 2. You can fall in love with her, but it's going to be unrequited. And that's quite refreshing, actually.

[Rifneno]

CalJones wrote...

As far as Aveline goes, I guess Bioware didn't want to maker her Jaheira mk 2. You can fall in love with her, but it's going to be unrequited. And that's quite refreshing, actually.

She's more like Wynne Mk. 2 than Jaheria Mk. 2  Preachy pain in the ass that never stops lecturing even if you always walk the straight and narrow.  Jaheria... she was just a moron.  "This isn't balance!  You're always taking the good path like I pester you to do instead of being in balance like I pester you to be!"  But at least it made sense for Aveline to get involved with someone since even though it's a few hours for us it's 4 years for her.  Jaheria wanted Bhaalspawn set in her before rigamortis had set in Khalid.

[Paeyne]

Rifneno wrote...

Aveline:  I disagree, she has plenty of baggage.  It's all labeled with Wesley's name.  She gets pissy when anyone even mentions him.  Four years later she throws a complete tantrum because Hawke gives her a shield.  And because Wesley had a shield, clearly Hawke is trying to make her forget Wesley or something.  That is not the rationale of a mentally well woman.

Aveline does have baggage.  No doubt about that.  But at least grief over the loss of a husband you were devoted to is relatively normal baggage.  If she is still dealing with it four years later I would only say that four years is not that long in the scheme of things.  Also living with the fact that either she or Hawke was the hand that killed him can't be very pleasant.

I would have no interest in romancing Aveline, I only say that, as far as relationship material goes, she is several strided ahead of the rest of the pack (which I understand is not saying much).

[Xilizhra]

Given that Merrill only ever endangers herself once, to a degree that may have been inflamed immensely by Marethari, the evidence for calling her stupid/immature seems... shaky.

[Paeyne]

Rifneno wrote...

 Much as women talk about wanting a knight on a white horse, I think just as many men want to be the knight on a white horse.  It's just a lot harder to be in distress than to be awesome.

Truer words...

Although I am not sure about it being harder to be in distress.  I know several women who are constantly in distress. Being the knight can be pretty exhausting after a while.

[Xilizhra]

That impulse seems tremendous for many people who rivalmance Merrill. The friendmance isn't nearly so bad in that regard.

[Rifneno]

Paeyne wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

 Much as women talk about wanting a knight on a white horse, I think just as many men want to be the knight on a white horse.  It's just a lot harder to be in distress than to be awesome.

Truer words...

Although I am not sure about it being harder to be in distress.  I know several women who are constantly in distress. Being the knight can be pretty exhausting after a while.

Actually, I mistyped the whole thing.  I meant it the other way around.  That it's a lot easier to be in trouble than to save the day.

[frustratemyself]

Xilizhra wrote...

Given that Merrill only ever endangers herself once, to a degree that may have been inflamed immensely by Marethari, the evidence for calling her stupid/immature seems... shaky.

The demons/blood magic aside Merrill is completely daft. From party banter you find out she happily wanders around Lowtown back streets at night cause it's perfectly safe in her opinion. Varric apparently pays a fortune to make sure that nothing happens to her.
By this logic shouldn't she have wandered off into the woods at some point (because it's perfectly safe) and been savaged by bears or wolves?

[Xilizhra]

She's never lived in a city before, and if Varric started paying for Merrill's safety right away, she never would have encountered any danger at all. Dalish clans are quite close-knit, with each member looking after the others, and I suspect she didn't see a reason as to why civilization would be dangerous to its own members.

[frustratemyself]

In Kirkwall basic observational skills should give her plenty of reason.

[Xilizhra]

During the day? There's rather less random violence there, and she doesn't get out much, thanks to her work on the Eluvian.

[Paeyne]

Xilizhra wrote...

Given that Merrill only ever endangers herself once, to a degree that may have been inflamed immensely by Marethari, the evidence for calling her stupid/immature seems... shaky.

Since her unwillingness to relent and heed the advice of both her elder and keeper and many others around her potentially leads to the decimation of her clan, I would argue blind beligerance at the very least.

Then there was the.. "I know what I am doing even though I betrayed you in the fade but couldn't believe I did that and it won't ever happen again because I know what I am doing" song and dance.  Sounds pretty stupid to me.

Instead of doing any soul searching when Pol dies she simply blames the keeper (who does shoulder some responsiblity) and carries on with business as usual.  She practically stamped her little foot on the playthrough where I kept the tool from her. 

"No path is darker than when your eyes are shut." - Flemeth

I understand Fleme... Ooo.. shiny.

[frustratemyself]

What about the mugging that happens right outside her door. True we don't know if it happens at day or night but she's positively giddy when she tells you about it. Not quite right.

[Xilizhra]

Since her unwillingness to relent and heed the advice of both her elder and keeper and many others around her potentially leads to the decimation of her clan, I would argue blind beligerance at the very least.

That only happens if they go berserk and try to kill Hawke for telling the truth. I also suspect that Marethari's blind stubbornness was a major helping cause, perhaps the primary one, depending on how much influence the demon had on her. Given that she was living practically on top of it for seven years, this may have been a lot.

Then there was the.. "I know what I am doing even though I betrayed you in the fade but couldn't believe I did that and it won't ever happen again because I know what I am doing" song and dance. Sounds pretty stupid to me.

Demonic mind control. The only person not vulnerable to it is the one who's already under the control of a spirit.

Instead of doing any soul searching when Pol dies she simply blames the keeper (who does shoulder some responsiblity) and carries on with business as usual. She practically stamped her little foot on the playthrough where I kept the tool from her.

Well... it really was Marethari's fault for convincing the clan that Merrill was apparently worse than the varterral. This is one of the things that makes me think she was either already possessed, or in some kind of partnership with Audacity, feeding on her pride at making her rival so hated.

What about the mugging that happens right outside her door. True we don't know if it happens at day or night but she's positively giddy when she tells you about it. Not quite right.

Temporary naivete. I take comfort in the fact that the romance takes three more years to start.

[Paeyne]

Xilizhra wrote...

That only happens if they go berserk and try to kill Hawke for telling the truth. I also suspect that Marethari's blind stubbornness was a major helping cause, perhaps the primary one, depending on how much influence the demon had on her. Given that she was living practically on top of it for seven years, this may have been a lot.

So Merrill bears no responsiblity in this after years of her clan trying to dissuade her from her path.  Even Merrill admits that she was wrong at the end in some playthroughs

Demonic mind control. The only person not vulnerable to it is the one who's already under the control of a spirit.

True, except for Merrill who apparently knows how to protect herself from it... except when she can't.

Well... it really was Marethari's fault for convincing the clan that Merrill was apparently worse than the varterral. This is one of the things that makes me think she was either already possessed, or in some kind of partnership with Audacity, feeding on her pride at making her rival so hated.

I have no reason to believe that Marethari allowed the demon to possess her for any reason other than the reason she gave, as a way to protect Merrill. 

I would just argue that if everyone around her is telling her that she is wrong then not at least entertaining the idea that she may be wrong is blind arrogance.  I don't necessarily want this thread to be an argument about Merrill but as far as relationships go I don't think I would want to wake up one morning to find my girl carving runes in my chest and saying - no really, it will be fine.  I know what I am doing.

[Xilizhra]

So Merrill bears no responsiblity in this after years of her clan trying to dissuade her from her path. Even Merrill admits that she was wrong at the end in some playthroughs

Well, her clan mostly stayed out of it; the dissuading was done by Marethari. As for Merrill's admission, that's generally after years of Hawke leaning on her about it. But no; the actions of Marethari and the clan were their own doing.

True, except for Merrill who apparently knows how to protect herself from it... except when she can't.

She doesn't chat with demons in their own Fade realms, except in this case where she's brought along for a different reason.

I have no reason to believe that Marethari allowed the demon to possess her for any reason other than the reason she gave, as a way to protect Merrill.

And I have no reason to take the word of a hostile abomination at face value.

I would just argue that if everyone around her is telling her that she is wrong then not at least entertaining the idea that she may be wrong is blind arrogance.

Science doesn't really work that way. If people are telling you that you're wrong about something but don't have nearly as much knowledge about the situation as you do, their opinion shouldn't be counted. The only person qualified to actually discuss the Eluvian with Merrill was Marethari, and her reasons as to why Merrill was wrong... well, weren't reasons at all. She had no solid response as to why blood magic is so inherently dangerous or why the Eluvian was after Merrill cleansed it of its taint.

[Paeyne]

Xilizhra wrote...

Science doesn't really work that way. If people are telling you that you're wrong about something but don't have nearly as much knowledge about the situation as you do, their opinion shouldn't be counted. The only person qualified to actually discuss the Eluvian with Merrill was Marethari, and her reasons as to why Merrill was wrong... well, weren't reasons at all. She had no solid response as to why blood magic is so inherently dangerous or why the Eluvian was after Merrill cleansed it of its taint.

She is hardly an expert.  She only had the mirror a year before she chose to leave her clan.  She is a little girl who thinks she knows better than her Keeper and stubbornly refuses to even entertain the idea that she might be wrong. 

I can't even begin to go into all the flaws with the idea that she cleansed the mirror of taint with the help of blood magic and a demon.

Since this thread is about relationships, I will only say that it is great that you are a Merrill fan.  I, on the other hand, as another poster suggested, wouldn't touch her with a 10' barge pole.

[Rawgrim]

Ever notice how some companions change outfits after having had sex with Hawke? Makes sesne since they are wearing clothes during sex, I suppose.

[Greta13]

 With Fenris, my sarcastic mage Hawke romanced him as a friend just fine. So no, I wasn't always choosing the 'nice' option. As for Merrill, she felt to...childish to romance. After I had sex with her I kept expecting Varric or Isabella to come up and start yelling at me. 

[Maladismal]

Paeyne wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Science doesn't really work that way. If people are telling you that you're wrong about something but don't have nearly as much knowledge about the situation as you do, their opinion shouldn't be counted. The only person qualified to actually discuss the Eluvian with Merrill was Marethari, and her reasons as to why Merrill was wrong... well, weren't reasons at all. She had no solid response as to why blood magic is so inherently dangerous or why the Eluvian was after Merrill cleansed it of its taint.

She is hardly an expert.  She only had the mirror a year before she chose to leave her clan.  She is a little girl who thinks she knows better than her Keeper and stubbornly refuses to even entertain the idea that she might be wrong. 

I can't even begin to go into all the flaws with the idea that she cleansed the mirror of taint with the help of blood magic and a demon.

Since this thread is about relationships, I will only say that it is great that you are a Merrill fan.  I, on the other hand, as another poster suggested, wouldn't touch her with a 10' barge pole.

No she's not an expert. She instead decides to stand by the idealologies that the Dalish supposively stand for. Reclaimation of their history and heritage. When her keeper decides to go against this by discarding the Eluvian it's a betrayal of everything previously taught. She doesn't think she knows better, she does know better. Her trying to fix the mirror isn't about fixing the mirror. It's about reclaiming her people's heritage. It's worth sacrifices and risks since her people seem content on living a life of hypocrisy.

Without actually trying to adhere to the principles they teach, reclaming their lost heritage, the Dalish are a people with no future.