317 réponses à ce sujet

[Viyu]

Paeyne wrote...

Viyu wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It felt like they didn't want to offend straight people so they didn't develop Anders' bisexuality, nor did they allow his bisexuality to be a part of who he is, when it reasonably should have.

Considering the incredible amount of whining over Anders' bisexuality existing at all...

I think that's because it got no development, not because people were pissed about him being bi in and of itself. This caught people offguard and reasonably so. This is Dragon Age, if people were pissed about bisexuality, they'd have quit the franchise after the first game.

I think part of the issue is that people seem to believe that someone's sexuality defines them when I think it is only a part of their overall personality.  Individuals are far more complex than who they choose to sleep with.

You could put it down to the situation he grew up in.  There is some indication that he was abused growing up in the circle.  Very often someone with little joy in their life are reticent to turn down an offer of caring and genuine affection when it is offered.

The belief he offers that 'you fall in love with a whole person', not just their gender, certainly resonated with me, regardless of what his or my overall preference may be.  I don't even mind him indicating his interest in Hawke (no matter the gender) but it felt a bit contrived as it came very soon in their relationship.  There is some initial opportunities to express interest in him before he talks to you about his interest in you.  If you ignored those opportunities I would think he would have held off until he could get to know you better or he just couldn't be silent any longer.

As far as the other companions.  I think bisexuality works for Isabella.  It might even have worked for Sebastion (it would be an interesting turn of events if he realized he was chaste because he had little interest in woman.)  Bisexuality wasn't very believable in Merrill to me.  Fenris is a rather weird situation.  I can see him sleeping with either gender because of his background but whether he has a genuine interest in men is hard to say.  Its a little hard to say if he has a genuine interest in women either.

Overall, the lot of them did suffer from a lack of development.  In the case of Anders, the dramatic change from Awakening was tough for a lot of Anders fans to swallow.  I can say that my impression of Anders in Awakening was that he was bi at the very least but that is a completely subjective opinion.  (I don't know a lot of men that carry cats around with them named Ser Pounce-a-lot.  I readily admit that my impression is based in a certain degree of gender bias but, in my defense, thats a bias that no-one can be rid of entirely.)

Sexuality isn't some static thing that can't change. Whether you are bi for awhile and decide to be straight for awhile or if you are straight for awhile and decide to be gay , the idea is that these are merely categories of orientation at a specific point of your life. That said, it's implied (at least to me it is) that Anders was straight until he met Karl because he won't flirt with your male warden. But with that said, this only matters to me because it seems rather unbelivable that Anders wouldn't think a second thought about someone he was in love with, much less his "first".  I'm sorry but to me, it seemed like they were hiding his sexuality. Not cool.

[Maladismal]

In Exile wrote...

Maladismal wrote...
I wouldn't of used warden/hawke plot armor if plot armor didn't surround every facet of the game. It has to matter because the game only gives us so much choice in what we have avaliable. It's a cheap shot, but it's still valid.

The issue is gameplay & lore segregation.

I also present this to counter Merril's deviant behavior. Marethari's not persuing the Eluvian was of dereliction of her duty as keeper forcing Merril's hand.

"A Keeper is a leader of Dalish
elves, both in the spiritual sense, as well as the literal. They are
not thought of as rulers, however. The families within a clan listen to
their Keeper because the Keeper is wise, and it is tradition. Keepers
are also responsible for knowing the clan's ancient lore, and passing it
on to the others in the clan. Without a keeper, the clan's knowledge is
lost forever. Every ten years, the Keepers of the Dalish clans convene
in a meeting called the Arlathvhen, which lasts usually two days,
to compare any recovered knowledge or artifacts. The intense quarreling
that occurs in these conferences leads many to suspect the Dalish
prefer their tribal isolation due to irreconcilable differences.
"

The Keeper is responsible for the knowledge of the clan according to that; not the lost knowledge of Arlathan.

Your quote doesn't defend Merril.

Glad to see you ignored
Every ten years, the Keepers of the Dalish clans convene
in a meeting called the Arlathvhen, which lasts usually two days,
to compare any recovered knowledge or artifacts

But keep focusing on just the arguments you favor.

[In Exile]

Maladismal wrote...
Glad to see you ignored
Every ten years, the Keepers of the Dalish clans convene
in a meeting called the Arlathvhen, which lasts usually two days,
to compare any recovered knowledge or artifacts

But keep focusing on just the arguments you favor.

I didn't. The obligation is to preserve all the clan's knowledge. As for new knowledge, the passage you cited says nothing. The Keepers ostensibly look for recovered knowledge or artificat; but nowhere does it say every artefact must be recovered, irrespective of the cost or judgement of the Keeper. 

I appreciate that you're entrenched in your position, but the passage does not prove that the Keeper has an obligation to recover the Eluvian.

Modifié par In Exile, 08 mai 2011 - 11:03 .

[llandwynwyn]

For 7 years the romances start too quickly, you only have to flirt once or twice to be "in love".
I know this very well because I only flirted once with Anders before he forced kissed my Hawke. bah

Really, the best "romance" is Zev. A good time, drama free and he even helps you in the end without asking for anything in return.

[Maladismal]

In Exile wrote...


I didn't. The obligation is to preserve all the clan's knowledge. As for new knowledge, the passage you cited says nothing. The Keepers ostensibly look for recovered knowledge or artificat; but nowhere does it say every artefact must be recovered, irrespective of the cost or judgement of the Keeper. 

I appreciate that you're entrenched in your position, but the passage does not prove that the Keeper has an obligation to recover the Eluvian.

How are they ever going to regain knowledge if they cover their ears and close their eyes simply because of what might happen? Thats the ignorance that Merril observed during her introduction quest.

[In Exile]

Maladismal wrote...
How are they ever going to regain knowledge if they cover their ears and close their eyes simply because of what might happen? Thats the ignorance that Merril observed during her introduction quest.

They could, for one, investigate the ancient Elven burial ground that they are on. Or the Varterral which was in the cave. Both are treasures of Arlathan.

At least you have acknowledged that there is no obligation for a keeper to preserve all lore. To answer your quesstion directly, when you are dealing with an absolute unknown that was tainted by the blight and you have no idea what it can do, it is for the best to record that knowledge in itself (i.e. that the Eluvian exists, and that it can in principle be tainted) and wait until you can gather much more knowledge before embarking on a quest to save all elves by yourself.

It is no different than trying to experiment with radition without first evaluting whether or not eposure to it is unsafe. Science is a process, but there is no reason to be irresponsible in what you investigate. Archeology, which is what the Keeper does, is the same (especially when magic is concerned).

[HogarthHughes 3]

llandwynwyn wrote...

For 7 years the romances start too quickly, you only have to flirt once or twice to be "in love".
I know this very well because I only flirted once with Anders before he forced kissed my Hawke. bah

Really, the best "romance" is Zev. A good time, drama free and he even helps you in the end without asking for anything in return.

Its kinda like Anders, Fenris, and Merrill are all secretly in love with Hawke.  All he/she has to do is express some interest and they're all over him/her.  I only tried romancing Merrill my first playthrough, and her dialogue only changes a little if you flirt with her, so I was surprised to find that the guys conversations changes completely.  Anders went from the plight of the mages to drowning us in blood, and Fenris starting talking about sex with Hawke.  It was just strange to me how quick they were to reciprocate, especially having gone through the non-flirtatious dialogue which doesn't really hint at any kind of romantic feelings.  Just to note, the conversations I'm speaking of are in Act II.

[Paeyne]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

llandwynwyn wrote...

For 7 years the romances start too quickly, you only have to flirt once or twice to be "in love".
I know this very well because I only flirted once with Anders before he forced kissed my Hawke. bah

Really, the best "romance" is Zev. A good time, drama free and he even helps you in the end without asking for anything in return.

Its kinda like Anders, Fenris, and Merrill are all secretly in love with Hawke.  All he/she has to do is express some interest and they're all over him/her.  I only tried romancing Merrill my first playthrough, and her dialogue only changes a little if you flirt with her, so I was surprised to find that the guys conversations changes completely.  Anders went from the plight of the mages to drowning us in blood, and Fenris starting talking about sex with Hawke.  It was just strange to me how quick they were to reciprocate, especially having gone through the non-flirtatious dialogue which doesn't really hint at any kind of romantic feelings.  Just to note, the conversations I'm speaking of are in Act II.

Well, my Hawke was the best piece of eye candy in the entire city.  So I can understand why they would be secretly attracted to him  


The romances did seem a bit rushed in spots and kind of non-existant in others.   Once Anders moved into the mansion I barely ever saw him.    He spent all his days scribbling manifestoes and playing with my dog.  I ended up cheating on him with Zevron just out of pent up frustraition.

[Auroras]

Although I throughly enjoyed all the romances in DA2 (except for Anders... I wanted to throw up after he confessed his love for me about 1000000000000000000000 times every second), everything in the OP is so, so true.

[Auroras]

TOBY FLENDERSON wrote...

My own personal wishes for male were Athenril (the smuggler), Averline, Sigrund (brought back in Stroud's place). For female Donnic, Varric, Shamus. All would be exclusive to straight romances because exclusivity across playthroughs is great and making everyone bi is lazy. This would have left everyone at least partially satisfied due to all races and orientation being presented in addition to LI's already in. But my biggest gripe is that none of the LI's had a reason, except Isabella, for being bi, unlike Zevran and Leliana who both have a history justifying it.

Personally I like Merrill because she repents her blood magic in the end and seems beleivable.

I don't know whether to laugh or...

[Viyu]

Auroras wrote...

TOBY FLENDERSON wrote...

My own personal wishes for male were Athenril (the smuggler), Averline, Sigrund (brought back in Stroud's place). For female Donnic, Varric, Shamus. All would be exclusive to straight romances because exclusivity across playthroughs is great and making everyone bi is lazy. This would have left everyone at least partially satisfied due to all races and orientation being presented in addition to LI's already in. But my biggest gripe is that none of the LI's had a reason, except Isabella, for being bi, unlike Zevran and Leliana who both have a history justifying it.

Personally I like Merrill because she repents her blood magic in the end and seems beleivable.

I don't know whether to laugh or...

I think it is lazy. They tried to cover up Anders' relationship with Karl, and it was as if they wanted straight players not to know the LIs were gay, but wanted the LGBT players to have more options as well. But they never let that sexuality be a part of the characters and their history--or at least Anders in particular.

[highcastle]

Viyu wrote...

Auroras wrote...

TOBY FLENDERSON wrote...

My own personal wishes for male were Athenril (the smuggler), Averline, Sigrund (brought back in Stroud's place). For female Donnic, Varric, Shamus. All would be exclusive to straight romances because exclusivity across playthroughs is great and making everyone bi is lazy. This would have left everyone at least partially satisfied due to all races and orientation being presented in addition to LI's already in. But my biggest gripe is that none of the LI's had a reason, except Isabella, for being bi, unlike Zevran and Leliana who both have a history justifying it.

Personally I like Merrill because she repents her blood magic in the end and seems beleivable.

I don't know whether to laugh or...

I think it is lazy. They tried to cover up Anders' relationship with Karl, and it was as if they wanted straight players not to know the LIs were gay, but wanted the LGBT players to have more options as well. But they never let that sexuality be a part of the characters and their history--or at least Anders in particular.

I interpreted this in a different way. Not every person who is bi- or pansexual feels the need to disclose same-sex relationships with people of the opposite sex the moment they meet them. Also, people don't need a "reason" to be bi, gay, straight, or anything else. It's biological. And I thought it was handled very well and slightly different for each character:

Isabela comes off as a more "traditional" portrayal of bisexuality in fiction, in that she seems interested in just about everyone. However, at least some of this seems to be a front (she's not interested in the bad poet, Emile de Launcet, the dockworkers, etc.). It actually seems as though she enjoys using her sexuality to catch people off-guard, but is really not much more active than anyone else (something she suggests to Aveline).

Anders is more what I consider pansexual, in that he says he's interested in people regardless of gender. So it's not that he's attracted to both genders, but that he's attracted to people and gender is irrelevant. You don't see this portrayal much in media, but if you want to read anything about this type of attraction, try Virgina Woolfe's essay "A Room of One's Own" or her novel Orlando.

Fenris because of his lack of memory seems to be attracted to Hawke regardless of gender as the one person who's shown him kindness or respect. There's really no sexual history to discuss, so he goes into a relationship in some ways without baggage (and in others, with a ton of it).

I honestly have not played or seen much of Merrill's romance arc, so I can't really comment. But going by the other three, I have to protest this idea of having bi LIs be lazy writing. If you play any of these arcs with multiple genders, you'll see a ton of romance dialogue changes between male and female PCs. And each character's sexuality is handled differently. It's not tacked on or simple pronoun swaps. Care went into crafting every one of the arcs and characters. And for those of us interested in this content, we really appreciate having access to it.

Modifié par highcastle, 09 mai 2011 - 11:51 .

[Viyu]

highcastle wrote...


I interpreted this in a different way. Not every person who is bi- or pansexual feels the need to disclose same-sex relationships with people of the opposite sex the moment they meet them. Also, people don't need a "reason" to be bi, gay, straight, or anything else. It's biological. And I thought it was handled very well and slightly different for each character:

highcastle wrote...

Anders is more what I consider pansexual, in that he says he's interested in people regardless of gender. So it's not that he's attracted to both genders, but that he's attracted to people and gender is irrelevant. 

Really? So why is it that in Awakening he only flirts with the female equivalent of a male warden that makes the exact same choices? And if that were true, why would he disclose it to one gender and not the other? Anders is the type of character who is not ashamed of who he is and has no problems being forthright. But aside, my issue about how they suspiciously remove Karl from Anders' memories and feelings altogether, practically entirely after Tranquility. You would think that even if it was in Anders' character to be reluctant about being open with his sexuality, he would at least refer to Karl in a "friend" sort of sense. The difference between Anders and everyone else was that the person who SHOULD'VE stayed in his memories was someone who he had a romantic relationship with and was of the same gender. You don't see Merrill magically forget about Pol or the clan, Aliatair forget about Duncan, or Aveline forget about Wesley, who was romantically involved with someone of a different gender. Nobody is looking for the "reason" Anders became bi, they just want to know when and how it happened so they can understand the character in a chronological sense to keep their understanding of him consistent.

Modifié par Viyu, 09 mai 2011 - 04:05 .

[highcastle]

[quote]Viyu wrote...

[quote]highcastle wrote...


I interpreted this in a different way. Not every person who is bi- or pansexual feels the need to disclose same-sex relationships with people of the opposite sex the moment they meet them. Also, people don't need a "reason" to be bi, gay, straight, or anything else. It's biological. And I thought it was handled very well and slightly different for each character:
[/quote]


Anders is more what I consider pansexual, in that he says he's interested in people regardless of gender. So it's not that he's attracted to both genders, but that he's attracted to people and gender is irrelevant.  [/quote]


Really? So why is it that in Awakening he only flirts with the female equivalent of a male warden that makes the exact same choices? And if that were true, why would he disclose it to one gender and not the other? Anders is the type of character who is not ashamed of who he is and has no problems being forthright. But aside, my issue about how they suspiciously remove Karl from Anders' memories and feelings altogether, practically entirely after Tranquility. You would think that even if it was in Anders' character to be reluctant about being open with his sexuality, he would at least refer to Karl in a "friend" sort of sense. The difference between Anders and everyone else was that the person who SHOULD'VE stayed in his memories was someone who he had a romantic relationship with and was of the same gender. You don't see Merrill forget about Pol, Aliatair forget about Duncan, or Aveline forget about Wesley, who was romantically involved with someone of a different gender. Nobody is looking for the "reason" Anders became bi, they just want to know when and how it happened so they can understand the character in a chronological sense to keep their understanding of him consistent.


[/quote]
--------

Uh, he does refer to Karl as a friend to fem!Hawke. The only difference I've seen is that he doesn't explicitly refer to them as former lovers. And yes, I wish he would have. But I'm saying it's understandable that he didn't. As someone of similar leanings to Anders, I can say from experience I don't immediately disclose every relationship or attraction to people I've just met.

As far as differences regarding DAA and DA2, it's hard to judge Anders as exactly the same character. And actually, the fact that he primarily mentions flirting with women in Awakening actually supports my whole perhaps-he-doesn't-want-to-bring-up-same-sex-relations-with-complete-strangers theory. But there's also one banter with Nathaniel that came across as flirtatious (it's just the way he said "Not when I'm naked," mostly). Obviously since there's nothing concrete, it can be interpreted various ways.

And lastly, you don't become bi. You are born bi. Just like you're born gay or straight. And I dislike this term in regards to Anders. He's not what most people think of when they hear bisexual. He's pansexual: attracted to people regardles of gender. I really, really think you should look up that Woolfe essay I mentioned earlier. It might help explain it to you better than I feel like right now. If you're looking for chronologically tracking his sexuality...well, Karl was Anders' first. So clearly he was aware of his orientation from a fairly young age.

Modifié par highcastle, 09 mai 2011 - 12:34 .

[Tyrium]

Eh, this used to bug me a very much lot, but not so much anymore. After all, the only reason to care about someone's sexuality is if you are romancing them. If you are romancing him as a a guy, then him being attracted to men isn't going to bother you. If you are romancing him as a woman, it is perfectly possible to play Anders as being straight in a fem Hawke playthrough. Nothing in the game with contradict it.

I saw Anders as straight in Awakening, and was therefore relieved to find out he could "stay" straight in a fem!Hawke playthrough. If you aren't romancing him, why does his sexuality matter at all?

Bottom line is, you may or may not have seen Anders as straight in Awakening. If you play Fem!Hawke, he can be played as straight or bi/pan sexual if you imagine that conversation occured offscreen. If you play male, he is definitely attracted to both, and I can see how that could be jarring if you saw him as straight in Awakening, but if you are playing a straight male, you're not going to romance him, so his sexuality shouldn't matter in the least to you.

And, for the record, he didn't "become" anything - if Karl was more than a friend in your playthrough, it was long before Awakening.

I don't like the all available to all, but I understand and support its purpose. I am glad it was done this way with Anders Fenris and Merril not making any mention of being attracted to the same sex in an opposite sex playthrough, so people could have a perfectly straight LI with the information in that run, or could have a bisexual LI if they so chose. I'd say it worked, but I always saw Anders as straight, so I'm glad I can keep it that way.

[Viyu]

highcastle wrote...

Viyu wrote...

highcastle wrote...


I interpreted this in a different way. Not every person who is bi- or pansexual feels the need to disclose same-sex relationships with people of the opposite sex the moment they meet them. Also, people don't need a "reason" to be bi, gay, straight, or anything else. It's biological. And I thought it was handled very well and slightly different for each character:

Anders is more what I consider pansexual, in that he says he's interested in people regardless of gender. So it's not that he's attracted to both genders, but that he's attracted to people and gender is irrelevant. 

Really? So why is it that in Awakening he only flirts with the female equivalent of a male warden that makes the exact same choices? And if that were true, why would he disclose it to one gender and not the other? Anders is the type of character who is not ashamed of who he is and has no problems being forthright. But aside, my issue about how they suspiciously remove Karl from Anders' memories and feelings altogether, practically entirely after Tranquility. You would think that even if it was in Anders' character to be reluctant about being open with his sexuality, he would at least refer to Karl in a "friend" sort of sense. The difference between Anders and everyone else was that the person who SHOULD'VE stayed in his memories was someone who he had a romantic relationship with and was of the same gender. You don't see Merrill forget about Pol, Aliatair forget about Duncan, or Aveline forget about Wesley, who was romantically involved with someone of a different gender. Nobody is looking for the "reason" Anders became bi, they just want to know when and how it happened so they can understand the character in a chronological sense to keep their understanding of him consistent.

--------

Uh, he does refer to Karl as a friend to fem!Hawke.

No I'm talking about REFLECTING on Karl at least as a friend. You don't really hear an utterance of Karl after Tranquility, it was almost as if he was the setup for "explaining" how Anders was going to be bi for LGBT players, but for everyone else, what we don't know won't hurt us, and he was at best an acquaintance whose death obviously didn't hurt Anders much because he's never spoken of again.

The only difference I've seen is that he doesn't explicitly refer to them as former lovers. And yes, I wish he would have. But I'm saying it's understandable that he didn't. As someone of similar leanings to Anders, I can say from experience I don't immediately disclose every relationship or attraction to people I've just met.

No but Anders is not the type of person to be ashamed to disclose who and what he is, much less someone he's close to like Hawke.

As far as differences regarding DAA and DA2, it's hard to judge Anders as exactly the same character. And actually, the fact that he primarily mentions flirting with women in Awakening actually supports my whole perhaps-he-doesn't-want-to-bring-up-same-sex-relations-with-complete-strangers theory.

But your warden is quite close to Anders by the time he says what he does. By this time you've done much to save his neck, give him a cat, and a whole slew of other things. So there's nothing "stranger" about it.

But there's also one banter with Nathaniel that came across as flirtatious (it's just the way he said "Not when I'm naked," mostly). Obviously since there's nothing concrete, it can be interpreted various ways.

Actually, Anders tries to hide things he doesn't want to talk about by using humor and being utterly difficult or annoying to talk to. Nathaniel was prodding too closely into the issue of his phylactery. He WILL confide in your warden about it though.

And lastly, you don't become bi. You are born bi. Just like you're born gay or straight. And I dislike this term in regards to Anders. He's not what most people think of when they hear bisexual. He's pansexual: attracted to people regardles of gender. I really, really think you should look up that Woolfe essay I mentioned earlier. It might help explain it to you better than I feel like right now. If you're looking for chronologically tracking his sexuality...well, Karl was Anders' first. So clearly he was aware of his orientation from a fairly young age.

People can discover it later in life. I have two aunts who did in their 40s and 50's (one's a grandmother). So I disagree. And again if he's attracted to personality, why does his flirts depend specifically on whether or not your warden is male or female? I have nothing against him becomming bi later in life, I DO have an issue with them covering it up for straight players.

Tyrium wrote...

Eh, this used to bug me a very much lot,
but not so much anymore. After all, the only reason to care about
someone's sexuality is if you are romancing them.

I
disagree. It's not his sexuality I care about, but not touching on it
deprives people of events that supposedly led to character development. It also allows us to feel the depth of his loss of Karl (which hardly seemed believable to begin with).

Modifié par Viyu, 09 mai 2011 - 01:15 .

[In Exile]

highcastle wrote...

Uh, he does refer to Karl as a friend to fem!Hawke. The only difference I've seen is that he doesn't explicitly refer to them as former lovers. And yes, I wish he would have. But I'm saying it's understandable that he didn't. As someone of similar leanings to Anders, I can say from experience I don't immediately disclose every relationship or attraction to people I've just met.

Here is my issue, at least. I strongly support the inclusion of diversity in video games as reasonable, and think that the opportunity for LGBT relationships in videogames is a major benefit to a group of fans with, essentially, no loss for anyone exept a bigot.

My problem, though, is when it affects my gameplay experience my making the character feel inconsistent. If Anders was a pansexual, that's absolutely fine. But the game needs to convey that clearly to me, as the player, to understand why Anders would react differently (or the same) to a fem Hawke & fem Warden, and male Hawke & male Warden.

The way to put it is like this: Hawke may change in differnet playthroughs, and the things Hawke does should change in different playthroughs... but the other characters should be the same unless Hawke does something to alter their worldview (e.g. friendship, rivalry or romance).

When you've got a Hawkesexual instead of a pansexual, bisexual, homosexual or heterosexual, it becomes incredibly bothersome. At least for me, because it makes the character feel inconsistent.

ETA:

I also think there's something valauble in having an openly bi (or gay) male character in a video-game, since the same corresponding orientation in females can be as much titilation for straight gamers as anything. 

Modifié par In Exile, 09 mai 2011 - 02:29 .

[Viyu]

In Exile wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Uh, he does refer to Karl as a friend to fem!Hawke. The only difference I've seen is that he doesn't explicitly refer to them as former lovers. And yes, I wish he would have. But I'm saying it's understandable that he didn't. As someone of similar leanings to Anders, I can say from experience I don't immediately disclose every relationship or attraction to people I've just met.

Here is my issue, at least. I strongly support the inclusion of diversity in video games as reasonable, and think that the opportunity for LGBT relationships in videogames is a major benefit to a group of fans with, essentially, no loss for anyone exept a bigot.

My problem, though, is when it affects my gameplay experience my making the character feel inconsistent. If Anders was a pansexual, that's absolutely fine. But the game needs to convey that clearly to me, as the player, to understand why Anders would react differently (or the same) to a fem Hawke & fem Warden, and male Hawke & male Warden.

The way to put it is like this: Hawke may change in differnet playthroughs, and the things Hawke does should change in different playthroughs... but the other characters should be the same unless Hawke does something to alter their worldview (e.g. friendship, rivalry or romance).

When you've got a Hawkesexual instead of a pansexual, bisexual, homosexual or heterosexual, it becomes incredibly bothersome. At least for me, because it makes the character feel inconsistent.

ETA:

I also think there's something valauble in having an openly bi (or gay) male character in a video-game, since the same corresponding orientation in females can be as much titilation for straight gamers as anything. 

If Anders is a pansexual I don't see "Hawkesexual" rather believable.

Anyway, I spoke with another forumer about this and I am in agreement. But WHY are all the openly gay and bi characters the morally "loose" ones? Zevran an assasin who was raised by prostitutes, and Leilianna, who secretly loves killing, and Isabella--who I need not delve into further. Why is gayness portrayed as something that has to be forceful and if they are gay, and it is acknowledged by the story, it's always the wayward characters who end up that way?

Modifié par Viyu, 09 mai 2011 - 02:37 .

[Paeyne]

Viyu wrote...

In Exile wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Uh, he does refer to Karl as a friend to fem!Hawke. The only difference I've seen is that he doesn't explicitly refer to them as former lovers. And yes, I wish he would have. But I'm saying it's understandable that he didn't. As someone of similar leanings to Anders, I can say from experience I don't immediately disclose every relationship or attraction to people I've just met.

Here is my issue, at least. I strongly support the inclusion of diversity in video games as reasonable, and think that the opportunity for LGBT relationships in videogames is a major benefit to a group of fans with, essentially, no loss for anyone exept a bigot.

My problem, though, is when it affects my gameplay experience my making the character feel inconsistent. If Anders was a pansexual, that's absolutely fine. But the game needs to convey that clearly to me, as the player, to understand why Anders would react differently (or the same) to a fem Hawke & fem Warden, and male Hawke & male Warden.

The way to put it is like this: Hawke may change in differnet playthroughs, and the things Hawke does should change in different playthroughs... but the other characters should be the same unless Hawke does something to alter their worldview (e.g. friendship, rivalry or romance).

When you've got a Hawkesexual instead of a pansexual, bisexual, homosexual or heterosexual, it becomes incredibly bothersome. At least for me, because it makes the character feel inconsistent.

ETA:

I also think there's something valauble in having an openly bi (or gay) male character in a video-game, since the same corresponding orientation in females can be as much titilation for straight gamers as anything. 

If Anders is a pansexual I don't see "Hawkesexual" rather believable.

Anyway, I spoke with another forumer about this and I am in agreement. But WHY are all the openly gay and bi characters the morally "loose" ones? Zevran an assasin who was raised by prostitutes, and Leilianna, who secretly loves killing, and Isabella--who I need not delve into further. Why is gayness portrayed as something that has to be forceful and if they are gay, and it is acknowledged by the story, it's always the wayward characters who end up that way?

I really have to agree with most of this.  I know a number of gay people and none of them wear their sexuality on their sleeve.  In most cases, you would never know what their sexuality was unless they explicity told you.

Can you imagine what would have happened if somewhere down the line at very high approval Alistair told the female Warden that, while he loved her dearly as a friend and companion he wasn't interested in a relationship with her because he was attracted to men.  The scream that would have gone up around the fanbase would have been deafening.  I contend that it would be believable.  Think what story could come of that.  Not wanting to tell her and terrified of losing one of his closest friends and last connection to the Wardens.  Fearful of rejection and not wanting to hurt someone he cares for and respects.  Afraid of what would happen afterwards, knowing that he would still have to work and interact with his fellow Warden even if they took it badly.  Thats a situation that all gay men and lesbians face at some point in their lives and it is a lot more deep and meaningful than much of what we see in either Dragon Age game romances.

I don't necessarily agree that the sexual nature of the LIs was done out of laziness, however I would agree that the lack of depth in many of the relationships can give that impression.  There may be plenty of reasons for the companions to have sex with Hawke (background, current situation, curiostiy), but whether those are reasons to have a meaningful relationship with him is another matter entirely.

Modifié par Paeyne, 09 mai 2011 - 09:11 .

[Viyu]

Paeyne wrote...

Viyu wrote...

In Exile wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Uh, he does refer to Karl as a friend to fem!Hawke. The only difference I've seen is that he doesn't explicitly refer to them as former lovers. And yes, I wish he would have. But I'm saying it's understandable that he didn't. As someone of similar leanings to Anders, I can say from experience I don't immediately disclose every relationship or attraction to people I've just met.

Here is my issue, at least. I strongly support the inclusion of diversity in video games as reasonable, and think that the opportunity for LGBT relationships in videogames is a major benefit to a group of fans with, essentially, no loss for anyone exept a bigot.

My problem, though, is when it affects my gameplay experience my making the character feel inconsistent. If Anders was a pansexual, that's absolutely fine. But the game needs to convey that clearly to me, as the player, to understand why Anders would react differently (or the same) to a fem Hawke & fem Warden, and male Hawke & male Warden.

The way to put it is like this: Hawke may change in differnet playthroughs, and the things Hawke does should change in different playthroughs... but the other characters should be the same unless Hawke does something to alter their worldview (e.g. friendship, rivalry or romance).

When you've got a Hawkesexual instead of a pansexual, bisexual, homosexual or heterosexual, it becomes incredibly bothersome. At least for me, because it makes the character feel inconsistent.

ETA:

I also think there's something valauble in having an openly bi (or gay) male character in a video-game, since the same corresponding orientation in females can be as much titilation for straight gamers as anything. 

If Anders is a pansexual I don't see "Hawkesexual" rather believable.

Anyway, I spoke with another forumer about this and I am in agreement. But WHY are all the openly gay and bi characters the morally "loose" ones? Zevran an assasin who was raised by prostitutes, and Leilianna, who secretly loves killing, and Isabella--who I need not delve into further. Why is gayness portrayed as something that has to be forceful and if they are gay, and it is acknowledged by the story, it's always the wayward characters who end up that way?

I really have to agree with most of this.  I know a number of gay people and none of them wear their sexuality on their sleeve.  In most cases, you would never know what their sexuality was unless they explicity told you.

Can you imagine what would have happened if somewhere down the line at very high approval Alistair told the female Warden that, while he loved her dearly as a friend and companion he wasn't interested in a relationship with her because he was attracted to men.  The scream that would have gone up around the fanbase would have been deafening.  I contend that it would be believable.  Think what story could come of that.  Not wanting to tell her and terrified of losing one of his closest friends and last connection to the Wardens.  Fearful of rejection and not wanting to hurt someone he cares for and respects.  Afraid of what would happen afterwards, knowing that he would still have to work and interact with his fellow Warden even if they took it badly.  Thats a situation that all gay men and lesbians face at some point in their lives and it is a lot more deep and meaningful than much of what we see in either Dragon Age game romances.

I don't necessarily agree that the sexual nature of the LIs was done out of laziness, however I would agree that the lack of depth in many of the relationships can give that impression.  There may be plenty of reasons for the companions to have sex with Hawke (background, current situation, curiostiy), but whether those are reasons to have a meaningful relationship with him is another matter entirely.

Lazy might not be the correct word I'm looking for, begging your pardon. What I mean is, this insistence to keep Anders' bisexuality on the downlow just seemed to spoil and transcend to the other LI's, who were also on the down low LGBT (maybe not consciously as characters). But the issue of Bioware covering it up trickles over to them, and makes it hard for me to feel appreciative of their efforts to include LGBT in a game, because it feels like the execution was half-baked, and worse, it seems intentionally done that way. Now I'm straight, and I find this revolting. The fact that there's this assumption that I need to be "protected" from it all. I think we're all grown ups, thanks. This is not 4kids.

Modifié par Viyu, 09 mai 2011 - 09:18 .

[Paeyne]

Viyu wrote...

Lazy might not be the correct word I'm looking for, begging your pardon. What I mean is, this insistence to keep Anders' bisexuality on the downlow just seemed to spoil and transcend to the other LI's, who were also on the down low LGBT (maybe not consciously as characters). But the issue of Bioware covering it up trickles over to them, and makes it hard for me to feel appreciative of their efforts to include LGBT in a game, because it feels like the execution was half-baked, and worse, it seems intentionally done that way. Now I'm straight, and I find this revolting. The fact that there's this assumption that I need to be "protected" from it all. I think we're all grown ups, thanks. This is not 4kids.

If I look at this from a character point of view, I can understand, at least initially, why Anders might want to keep his relationship with Karl from a female Hawke quiet.  "Hi, I like you a lot but I also like men." is not necessarily great initial dating material.

What should have happened is us seeing a moment with them together later in the relationship where he admits his relationship with Karl and confides in her some of the depth of his feelings for him.  Perhaps seeing him grieving Karl's loss and admitting the relationship out of a need for comfort.  Aveline was devastated by the loss of Wesley but Anders seems to never look back.   Anders is practically drooling over Hawke from the very beginning and Karl's body isn't even cold.  Hardly convincing.  I understand your point of view as it seems Karl was just stuck in there to legitimize Anders' apparent change in sexuality from Awakening.

All the characters could have benefitted from a great deal more development and I agree that often the execution of the relationships left a great deal to be desired.  Some would argue that the romances are only a small part of the overall story but I would argue that they are an integral part of character development.

Whether this was done intentionally as a way to limit negative reation from players or whether this was just done out of poor execution is hard to say for me.  Certainly there has been a very vocal (and not entirely unexpected) backlash from a segment of the fanbase.  There is also the consideration that writers in video games can only go as far as producers will let them.

I will only quote what a friend told me.  "I would rather have one gay character done in a deep and meaningful way than have four done superficially."    I can't really argue with that.

[Viyu]

Paeyne wrote...

Viyu wrote...

Lazy might not be the correct word I'm looking for, begging your pardon. What I mean is, this insistence to keep Anders' bisexuality on the downlow just seemed to spoil and transcend to the other LI's, who were also on the down low LGBT (maybe not consciously as characters). But the issue of Bioware covering it up trickles over to them, and makes it hard for me to feel appreciative of their efforts to include LGBT in a game, because it feels like the execution was half-baked, and worse, it seems intentionally done that way. Now I'm straight, and I find this revolting. The fact that there's this assumption that I need to be "protected" from it all. I think we're all grown ups, thanks. This is not 4kids.

If I look at this from a character point of view, I can understand, at least initially, why Anders might want to keep his relationship with Karl from a female Hawke quiet.  "Hi, I like you a lot but I also like men." is not necessarily great initial dating material.

Anders isn't the type to shy away from who or what he is. He's upfront about being a mage and a maleficar--which you can be KILLED for. LGBT is not nearly as sacreligious it seems, in comparison to being a mage and most certainly not a maleficar, which is one of the differences our culture has compared to theirs. But that's not what REALLY takes the cake with me, even. The fact Karl is not touched on at ALL is what is so suspicious, and is what bothers me. You would think he'd at least have some regrets, that he'd miss his close "friend". Alistair can miss Duncan and talk about it. Not Anders.

Modifié par Viyu, 09 mai 2011 - 10:52 .

[Paeyne]

Viyu wrote...

 The fact Karl is not touched on at ALL is what is so suspicious, and is what bothers me. You would think he'd at least have some regrets, that he'd miss his close "friend".

The Anderfans will want to crusify me for this but...

If I look at Anders with a very cynical eye, I could argue that he is manipulating Hawke (both sexes) from the very beginning.

We have, after all, only his word that his relationship with Karl was anything more than friendship.  I agree that the fact Karl is not touched on is very suspicious as is the lack of grief about Karl beyond the initial loss.  Most suspicious of all is that Karl does not take his last moments of clarity so say goodbye to the man he loves.  "Anders, I love you and if you truly love me you won't let me live like this." might almost be considered manditory in the situation.  Karl just doesn't act like a someone given one last opportunity to express his feelings to the man he loves. 

I would think that Hawke, as a strong individual, unafraid of the deeproads and willing to help Anders rescue someone from the Templars (and the consequences it might bring) would be a golden opportunity for someone who is afraid of being hunted by both the Templars and the Wardens. The fact that Hawke is not afraid that Anders is a form of abomination would only serve to cement this.

In the case of a male Hawke, I would think sleeping with Hawke would be a small price to pay for the protection he affords and the possible help he can provide.  Would Anders be this mercenary?  Why not.  People string other people along for a lot less.  Anders demonstraites later in the game that he is not above emotional blackmail and manipulation to accomplish his goals.  It becomes pretty obvious over the story that Anders/Justice will do just about anything to exact vengence.  This is not the Anders of Awakening.

Is any of this the truth?  <Shrug> who knows.  It certainly fits the facts as much as any other explanation and explains why he never showed any outward interest in men previously.

Modifié par Paeyne, 10 mai 2011 - 12:46 .

[Viyu]

I doubt your theory, considering he was OOC before there was any buildup between him and Hawke. Furthermore, Nathaniel is a monkey wrench that is rather irrelevant to Hawke and Anders being together.

[Vlondril]

Paeyne wrote...

Viyu wrote...

 The fact Karl is not touched on at ALL is what is so suspicious, and is what bothers me. You would think he'd at least have some regrets, that he'd miss his close "friend".

The Anderfans will want to crusify me for this but...

If I look at Anders with a very cynical eye, I could argue that he is manipulating Hawke (both sexes) from the very beginning.

We have, after all, only his word that his relationship with Karl was anything more than friendship.  I agree that the fact Karl is not touched on is very suspicious as is the lack of grief about Karl beyond the initial loss.  Most suspicious of all is that Karl does not take his last moments of clarity so say goodbye to the man he loves.  "Anders, I love you and if you truly love me you won't let me live like this." might almost be considered manditory in the situation.  Karl just doesn't act like a someone given one last opportunity to express his feelings to the man he loves. 

I would think that Hawke, as a strong individual, unafraid of the deeproads and willing to help Anders rescue someone from the Templars (and the consequences it might bring) would be a golden opportunity for someone who is afraid of being hunted by both the Templars and the Wardens. The fact that Hawke is not afraid that Anders is a form of abomination would only serve to cement this.

In the case of a male Hawke, I would think sleeping with Hawke would be a small price to pay for the protection he affords and the possible help he can provide.  Would Anders be this mercenary?  Why not.  People string other people along for a lot less.  Anders demonstraites later in the game that he is not above emotional blackmail and manipulation to accomplish his goals.  It becomes pretty obvious over the story that Anders/Justice will do just about anything to exact vengence.  This is not the Anders of Awakening.

Is any of this the truth?  <Shrug> who knows.  It certainly fits the facts as much as any other explanation and explains why he never showed any outward interest in men previously.

Now that is a fascinating thought!  Considering how manipulative Anders can be during the Justice personal quest, even when Hawke fully supports him, I could definitely see him basically using Hawke (either sex) to further his goals.

With Anders, everything is second to the cause of the mages.  Best case scenario, Hawke is a (distant) second banana, and worst case, she's a means to an end.  Seriously, I really love this theory!:happy: