317 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Paeyne wrote...

@ The Ethereal Writer Redux

Wow.. ok

Since this thread has been derailed several times in several areas I will try and respond to this along the lines of the intent of the thread.

Even if you allow for the fact that blood magic is not "inherently evil" (which I would tend to agree with) that does not alter the fact that it is extremely dangerous and open to abuses (such as mind control and the use of others blood) that normal magic does not. I am not saying Merrill would do either of those things but, as we have seen time and time again, she is the exception and not the rule.

I wouldn't even call it a rule that blood mages always do mind control. Just because it can happen doesn't mean it always will. We have Jowan who used blood magic for good. He used his own blood to protect refugees. As was said, Huon was the only blood mage we actually see use someone else's blood.

Even if we allow for the fact that Merrill takes every precaution when dealing with demons, stuff happens. She cannot plan against every demon and every eventuality. Even the best lion tamer gets bit once in a while. The problem with a slip with a demon is that you only get one and its pretty well over for you.

She can plan against this demon because it was trapped for centuries and centuries. The only way it would escape is if someone cast a powerful spell to free it

*cough cough Marethari cough cough*

I would not want a relationship with Merrill for several reasons. I would spend half my time worrying about her safety and the other half about the safety of others. I am not arguing that she isn't a good person. I am not even arguing she isn't a smart mage. I think she is both over-confident and naive. I consider that an extremely dangerous mix for anyone, never mind a mage.

You wouldn't worry about a person's safety even if they weren't a blood mage? Anyway, I don't see a naive woman, save for in Kirkwall where she's inexperienced with humans and city life. I see that she knows exactly what she is doing. She knows that all spirits are dangerous but there isn't anything wrong with trying to exploit a demon's help so long as you're careful. Hawke can do this with the Hunger Demon in the Deep Roads and with Torpor in Night Terrors. The Warden can do this with Kitty.

Many people spend time defending her. Perhaps they are right. I could be wrong. I have been wrong before. I do wonder though, if she looked like the elf from Blackpowder Courtesy and talked like Tarhone if they still would be defending her so vehemently. If Igor hobbled up to you and said in a screechy lisp that he knew what he was doing with demons and everything was going to be fine would you be so ready to defend him?

We are right. I don't know, I think we are if only for the fact that I've seen people give pretty ****ty arguments to try and make Merrill a bad person.

Now, as for her looks and persona, If she looked like the elf from Blackpowder Courtesy I would still defend her. I felt really sorry for that elf, and I didn't want to kill her. Why she never left for the Dalish with her family I don't know, but nevertheless I felt sorry for her despite the gas messing with her skin. Hell even with the gas messing with her skin I thought she was good looking.
 
And Tarohne talked like a madwoman. She wanted a Tevinter 2.0. Merrill doesn't. So using Tarohne and Merrill as a way to figure out if people would still defend her isn't a good example. They are two different people.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 mai 2011 - 02:45 .

[Jugo616]

Trust me - I have seen much, much stranger raleationships in real life. DA2 romances are OK.

[WilliamShatner]

To say there is romance in DA2 is an insult to all the great romances throughout history - Romeo and Juliet, Robin and Marion, Rick and Ilsa, Mulder and Scully.

[Jugo616]

WilliamShatner wrote...

To say there is romance in DA2 is an insult to all the great romances throughout history - Romeo and Juliet, Robin and Marion, Rick and Ilsa, Mulder and Scully.

Bonnie and Clyde, Uranus and Gaia, Anne Bonny and John Rackham, Harley Quinn and Joker...

[SurelyForth]

Paeyne wrote...
Best case scenario, Hawke is a (distant) second banana, and worst case, she's a means to an end.  Seriously,
I just ran through the Karl part again in one of my playthoughs.  It seems that Karl was completely unware that Anders was joined with Justice.  That means that they either were not lovers or that Anders did not tell Karl.  Either possibility speaks volumes IMO.

While I agree that Anders definitely benefits from being in a relationship with Hawke, I would not doubt his connection to Karl. First of all, he doesn't even mention his relationship to F!Hawke beyond what he says about them being penpals.

Secondly, he admits that it's been awhile since they've been together. He's been with other people since Karl, certainly.

Thirdly, when would he have told Karl about Justice? He wouldn't be sending it in letters that could be found by the templars, and he had no opportunity in the Chantry. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 14 mai 2011 - 06:55 .

[GenericPlayer2]

Paeyne wrote...
Since her unwillingness to relent and heed the advice of both her elder and keeper and many others around her potentially leads to the decimation of her clan, I would argue blind beligerance at the very least.

Then there was the.. "I know what I am doing even though I betrayed you in the fade but couldn't believe I did that and it won't ever happen again because I know what I am doing" song and dance.  Sounds pretty stupid to me.

Instead of doing any soul searching when Pol dies she simply blames the keeper (who does shoulder some responsiblity) and carries on with business as usual.  She practically stamped her little foot on the playthrough where I kept the tool from her. 

"No path is darker than when your eyes are shut." - Flemeth

I understand Fleme... Ooo.. shiny.

I agree completely with you. Merril suffers from a serious problem compared to other characters. She is arguably the youngest of the Hawke companions (might be same age as Bethany). For a teenager her attitude is hardly new - rebellious and arrogant. The problem is that during that stage in life, people develop very quickly both physically and mentally. So while seven years might have not changed Hawke's other companions, I fully expected Merril to have changed significantly. Between leaving her clan to live in the alienage (which is meant to be a slum far worse than the ingame graphics show it to be), Pol's death and Marethari's opinions, there is an expectation that Merril's attitude will be tempered with time. This does not happen, and so she seems as much the teenager in act 3 as she did 7 years before - And that is why I can't romance her without feeling like a pedophile.

[Jugo616]

I agree completely with you. Merril suffers from a serious problem compared to other characters. She is arguably the youngest of the Hawke companions (might be same age as Bethany). For a teenager her attitude is hardly new - rebellious and arrogant. The problem is that during that stage in life, people develop very quickly both physically and mentally. So while seven years might have not changed Hawke's other companions, I fully expected Merril to have changed significantly. Between leaving her clan to live in the alienage (which is meant to be a slum far worse than the ingame graphics show it to be), Pol's death and Marethari's opinions, there is an expectation that Merril's attitude will be tempered with time. This does not happen, and so she seems as much the teenager in act 3 as she did 7 years before - And that is why I can't romance her without feeling like a pedophile.

Not leting the horrors of life to break your spirit is a good thing in my book.

The actions of the elven clan is their own responsibility - they brought their doom upon themselves, not Merril. Keeper was a foolish wannabe Naruto and payed the price. Merril had a full understanding that a demon may owerpower her and she made precautions. Keepers interuption was her own foult.

[GenericPlayer2]

Jugo616 wrote...

Not leting the horrors of life to break your spirit is a good thing in my book.

The actions of the elven clan is their own responsibility - they brought their doom upon themselves, not Merril. Keeper was a foolish wannabe Naruto and payed the price. Merril had a full understanding that a demon may owerpower her and she made precautions. Keepers interuption was her own foult.

Obviously people can see virtue in behavior that other people cannot - thats not what is at issue here. If someone holds on to the same belief, especially someone so young, I expect over time that their attitude would be tempered, or that they would be able to explain their position in a more mature manner.

Does she know how exactly restoring the eluvian will benefit her people? She never gives me the feeling that she carefully weighed the risk vs the benefits. Why is it critical? The keeper on the other hand has had an extensive discussion with Duncan why this was a bad idea (if you did the dalish origin in the previous game), and she has years of experience in magic. To me it is clear she carefully thought her position through. Merril may have also carefully thought it through, but her immature behavior does not indicate that. She looks like a child who wants a toy very badly.

The underlying point here that few have discussed is what is the way forward for the Dalish? Should their whole life be driven by archaeological pursuits? What's the end game for them? To find a powerful artifact and use it to create a new empire?

[nightscrawl]

Paeyne wrote...

Anders: Aside from being one the the whiniest characters in the game, one wonders why a non-suicidal Hawke would even consider Anders. When Anders loses control of Justice (or Vengeance or "spirit of not having a good day and all must pay") he has the annoying tendency of killing people. I would think that would make sex inconvenient. I would also worry about the collateral damage of your first fight. Even if you ignore all that, the fact he lies to you repeatedly and betrays your trust does not bode well for your future relationship.

Well, he does warn you...

David Gaider wrote...

Fenris's role in the story is pretty clear, isn't it? He's the only voice in the group that is clearly critical of the mages, and who speaks from the voice of experience. I think some of his dialogues are a must-read for those people who like to go on about how mages have it so much better in Tevinter, or how mages ruling themselves would clearly have much better results than the Chantry.

That said, he's not tied into the plot as much, but that's why he's optional.

A majority of my plays in DAO and DA2 have been as a mage.

Fenris is by far my favorite, the OP's Eeyore reference aside... I think his most dynamic scene is after the first mansion fight where he confronts you about being (if you are one) a mage. You can question whether your being a mage bothers him and he will say "you are not Danarius." There are other lines as well where he says he knows that not all mages are bad. This is certainly showing more flexibility than Anders, who seems to be so naive as to think that the only way a mage would turn to blood magic is if he were pushed into it by the templars, but that just isn't so. There are power-hungry mages, just as there are power-hungry non-mages.

I could go on and on about this issue, but that's for another thread.

OP, you do realize that your response to giving Fenris back to Danarius of "doing him a favour" is what people typically say of slaves (among other things)? These (primitive people) need us to take care of them, to bring God into their heathen lives, etc etc. I have seen in other threads where people are happy to give him back. I can understand why people might dislike Fenris, especially if you are a mage supporter. So, don't recruit him. To gleefully give him back to his "master" is something I just cannot comprehend.

Perhaps all of the companions should have an option to tell them to GTFO, after which you would never see them again. I think that might solve some of the anger issues a few players seem to have with these people.


Also, I understand the (plot) reasons for Sebastian not being a "true romance" (in the same sense that the others are more complete), but I do wish he had been xD.

[Xilizhra]

This is certainly showing more flexibility than Anders, who seems to be so naive as to think that the only way a mage would turn to blood magic is if he were pushed into it by the templars, but that just isn't so. There are power-hungry mages, just as there are power-hungry non-mages.

Interestingly, almost every single blood mage whose motivations we know in both games has learned it to combat the templars. Uldred and his rebels, Tarohne, Idunna, Decimus, Grace, Huon to a certain extent... the only exceptions are the Tevinters, and where they're from, it's the culturally accepted path to power.

[TEWR]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

Jugo616 wrote...

Not leting the horrors of life to break your spirit is a good thing in my book.

The actions of the elven clan is their own responsibility - they brought their doom upon themselves, not Merril. Keeper was a foolish wannabe Naruto and payed the price. Merril had a full understanding that a demon may owerpower her and she made precautions. Keepers interuption was her own foult.

Obviously people can see virtue in behavior that other people cannot - thats not what is at issue here. If someone holds on to the same belief, especially someone so young, I expect over time that their attitude would be tempered, or that they would be able to explain their position in a more mature manner.

Does she know how exactly restoring the eluvian will benefit her people? She never gives me the feeling that she carefully weighed the risk vs the benefits. Why is it critical? The keeper on the other hand has had an extensive discussion with Duncan why this was a bad idea (if you did the dalish origin in the previous game), and she has years of experience in magic. To me it is clear she carefully thought her position through. Merril may have also carefully thought it through, but her immature behavior does not indicate that. She looks like a child who wants a toy very badly.

The underlying point here that few have discussed is what is the way forward for the Dalish? Should their whole life be driven by archaeological pursuits? What's the end game for them? To find a powerful artifact and use it to create a new empire?

Marethari refused to even study the Eluvian at all, so just because she may be a better and wiser mage doesn't mean she is the one who knows more about the Eluvian. She refused to have anything to do with it AFTER it was cleansed of the taint, and was so mired in fear that she spread baseless lies about Merrill to the clan in an attempt to get her to return home. The clan became afraid of her and Marethari thinks that they would accept her back immediately? And Merrill's the immature one?

If the mirror was still tainted, I'd agree more with Marethari. But the fact remains that it was cleansed. Sure Merrill doesn't know how it will help her people down the line, but do I know how my education in school is going to help me down the line? No. You can't know what the future holds and to say that she should know is a little foolish in my book. But....

It's also within the realm of possibility that she found some old Tevinter records somewhere indicating how the Tevinters used it and got a fancy telephone. She actually says in banter with Varric about how it's a communication device!


[*]Varric: Why a mirror?
[*]Merrill: I don't understand the question.
[*]Varric: If your people were going to make a magical whatever for talking to each other, why choose a mirror?
[*]Varric: Do elves spend a lot of time talking to their own reflections?
[*]Merrill: I suppose the ancient elves would have felt silly talking to a wardrobe or an urn.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 mai 2011 - 01:37 .

[Plaintiff]

WilliamShatner wrote...

To say there is romance in DA2 is an insult to all the great romances throughout history - Romeo and Juliet, Robin and Marion, Rick and Ilsa, Mulder and Scully.

Romeo and Juliet were teenagers who knew each other for all of three days before they killed themselves. I wouldn't trust the romantic judgement of anyone who considered their pairing one of the "greats".

By comparison, the characters of Dragon Age 2 know each other for several years, albeit much of that time happens off-screen. Nevertheless, their romances are a damn sight more believable than any written by Shakespeare.

[WilliamShatner]

Plaintiff wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

To say there is romance in DA2 is an insult to all the great romances throughout history - Romeo and Juliet, Robin and Marion, Rick and Ilsa, Mulder and Scully.

Romeo and Juliet were teenagers who knew each other for all of three days before they killed themselves. I wouldn't trust the romantic judgement of anyone who considered their pairing one of the "greats".

By comparison, the characters of Dragon Age 2 know each other for several years, albeit much of that time happens off-screen. Nevertheless, their romances are a damn sight more believable than any written by Shakespeare.

Nonsense.  Time is no gauge for quality romance.

Shakespeare makes you believe in and become invested in the whirlwind romance because of the passion evoked by the wonderful dialogue and the beautifully drawn and fully realized characters.  It is a pretty short play so the fact that we are able to get fully into the thoughts, feelings, troubles and hopes and dreams of the characters shows how masterfully written it is.

No one is thinking about the time frame in Romeo and Juliet because they are wrapped up in the story.  If you are thinking about the time frame well then the story and romance isn't really doing a good job at keeping you entralled, is it?

I doubt even BioWare writers would be big-headed even to think their romances are in the same league as Shakespeare.

[hoorayforicecream]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

To say there is romance in DA2 is an insult to all the great romances throughout history - Romeo and Juliet, Robin and Marion, Rick and Ilsa, Mulder and Scully.

Romeo and Juliet were teenagers who knew each other for all of three days before they killed themselves. I wouldn't trust the romantic judgement of anyone who considered their pairing one of the "greats".

By comparison, the characters of Dragon Age 2 know each other for several years, albeit much of that time happens off-screen. Nevertheless, their romances are a damn sight more believable than any written by Shakespeare.

Nonsense.  Time is no gauge for quality romance.

Shakespeare makes you believe in and become invested in the whirlwind romance because of the passion evoked by the wonderful dialogue and the beautifully drawn and fully realized characters.  It is a pretty short play so the fact that we are able to get fully into the thoughts, feelings, troubles and hopes and dreams of the characters shows how masterfully written it is.

No one is thinking about the time frame in Romeo and Juliet because they are wrapped up in the story.  If you are thinking about the time frame well then the story and romance isn't really doing a good job at keeping you entralled, is it?

I doubt even BioWare writers would be big-headed even to think their romances are in the same league as Shakespeare.

I wasn't wrapped up in the story when I read it. It felt very odd to me that Romeo was able to switch so quickly from loving Rosaline heart and soul to loving Juliet heart and soul. It felt strange to me that Juliet would feel so passionately for a man she just met. I never thought of Romeo and Juliet as a great love story, but a tragedy of over-impetuous youth. Of everyone, I felt most for Paris. The Bard did a great job of convincing me that they were passionate, young, and foolhardy, but I never really got into the whole GREATEST LOVE STORY EVAR thing that people seem to celebrate it for. I didn't see any love there, I saw infatuation, passion, and foolishness.

I liked the romances in DA2, since they injected a bit of pragmatism into the relationships. I found that refreshing.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 15 mai 2011 - 05:27 .

[Plaintiff]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

To say there is romance in DA2 is an insult to all the great romances throughout history - Romeo and Juliet, Robin and Marion, Rick and Ilsa, Mulder and Scully.

Romeo and Juliet were teenagers who knew each other for all of three days before they killed themselves. I wouldn't trust the romantic judgement of anyone who considered their pairing one of the "greats".

By comparison, the characters of Dragon Age 2 know each other for several years, albeit much of that time happens off-screen. Nevertheless, their romances are a damn sight more believable than any written by Shakespeare.

Nonsense.  Time is no gauge for quality romance.

Shakespeare makes you believe in and become invested in the whirlwind romance because of the passion evoked by the wonderful dialogue and the beautifully drawn and fully realized characters.  It is a pretty short play so the fact that we are able to get fully into the thoughts, feelings, troubles and hopes and dreams of the characters shows how masterfully written it is.

No one is thinking about the time frame in Romeo and Juliet because they are wrapped up in the story.  If you are thinking about the time frame well then the story and romance isn't really doing a good job at keeping you entralled, is it?

I doubt even BioWare writers would be big-headed even to think their romances are in the same league as Shakespeare.

Yes it is, and no he doesn't. Romeo and Juliet don't know each other at all, their relationship is utterly superficial. He's "in love" with some other random **** until he meets her and then he has an instant change of heart. He's impulsive and she's niave. If they'd survived the end of the play they would've realized they had nothing in common and the relationship would've failed.

Their hopes and dreams are stupid and Shakespeare's dialogue is mostly comprised of words he made up himself. It's really not that impressive.

If anything, Romeo and Juliet is a parody of tragic romance. Everything about it just highlights the utter stupidty of the genre as a whole.

Shakespeare's accomplishments are remarkable, for his time. His characters are one-dimensional and their personalities take complete 180 degree turns to suit the purposes of his ridiculous (and often borrowed) plots. Much Ado About Nothing, Twelfth Night and his other romances are all similarly ridiculous.

[Wulfram]

Xilizhra wrote...

Interestingly, almost every single blood mage whose motivations we know in both games has learned it to combat the templars. Uldred and his rebels, Tarohne, Idunna, Decimus, Grace, Huon to a certain extent... the only exceptions are the Tevinters, and where they're from, it's the culturally accepted path to power.

Merrill

[Xilizhra]

I didn't count her because she's not an enemy and her motives are entirely pure.

[IanPolaris]

Wulfram wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Interestingly, almost every single blood mage whose motivations we know in both games has learned it to combat the templars. Uldred and his rebels, Tarohne, Idunna, Decimus, Grace, Huon to a certain extent... the only exceptions are the Tevinters, and where they're from, it's the culturally accepted path to power.

Merrill

True but Merrill is a special case if there ever was one.  She certainly does NOT learn it because she desires power.  Indeed, before she learns it, she has almost all the power a Dalish Elf could possibly have (as Keeper's First) and leaning bloodmagic endangers that.

Merrill learns it because no other option is available to recover a lost artifact of her people (thanks to Merethari's intransigence).

-Polaris

[hoorayforicecream]

Wulfram wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Interestingly, almost every single blood mage whose motivations we know in both games has learned it to combat the templars. Uldred and his rebels, Tarohne, Idunna, Decimus, Grace, Huon to a certain extent... the only exceptions are the Tevinters, and where they're from, it's the culturally accepted path to power.

Merrill

What about Quentin and Gascard Du Puis?

[Xilizhra]

We don't know why Quentin became a blood mage; he was into it before his wife died and he went crazy. Ditto for Gascard.

[hoorayforicecream]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Interestingly, almost every single blood mage whose motivations we know in both games has learned it to combat the templars. Uldred and his rebels, Tarohne, Idunna, Decimus, Grace, Huon to a certain extent... the only exceptions are the Tevinters, and where they're from, it's the culturally accepted path to power.

Merrill

What about Quentin and Gascard Du Puis?

One uses it for necromancy, the other is his apprentice(I think).

Right. The point being that neither primarily learned it to combat the templars.

Xilizhra wrote...

We don't know why Quentin became a blood mage; he was into it before his wife died and he went crazy. Ditto for Gascard.

Is there any proof of this?

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 15 mai 2011 - 06:10 .

[Xilizhra]

Is there any proof of this?

Yes. In his conversation with Gascard, he says that he was unable to be the teacher that Gascard wanted, and Gascard was always interested in necromancy. This leads me to believe that he already knew it, but was plunged into despair when his wife died, after which he came out of it with his plan to bring her back.

[bleetman]

Avernus, presumably Zathrian.