181 réponses à ce sujet

[thesilverlinedviking]

I've read a lot of people complain about plot holes. Which ones? Because somehow I failed to see any.

[Foolsfolly]

There are no real plot holes.

There's some retcons and a few possible plot inconsistencies. But the plot's really too small to have too many holes in it.

[TheBlackBaron]

thesilverlinedviking wrote...

I've read a lot of people complain about plot holes. Which ones? Because somehow I failed to see any.

Have you visited the ME boards? You haven't seen people complain about plot holes until you've been there.

Most of the people here don't seem to complain about plot holes; rather, railroading and the story just plain not being very good seem to be the order of the day. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 04 mai 2011 - 04:09 .

[IanPolaris]

There are some glaring plotholes though. One of the biggest at least for me is that within 15 minutes of landing in Kirkwall you (or your sister) are throwing around open battlemagic to help defend the guards (you have to or you don't survive) IN GRAND CENTRAL TEMPLAR STATION and no one picks up on the fact you are an apostate.....and you are a nobody penniless refugee at the time. We see that over and over again....in fact entire satirical comic strips have been written on this point.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The other really obvious and glaring plot-hole can be summed up on one word: Time-Line.

When you meet Anders, we already know he is a warden hard at work defending Amaranthine. The Timeline just doesn't work.

-Polaris

[Foolsfolly]

Timeline and magic using in Kirkwall without anyone batting an eye are inconsistencies.

The timeline's inexcusable. For the sequel they could have set the game at any time but instead choose the one time where Anders shouldn't even be in Kirkwall.

The magic one is a gameplay overriding story thing. Not a plot hole.

[cihimi]

<sigh> these people....

[TheBlackBaron]

Foolsfolly wrote...
The magic one is a gameplay overriding story thing. Not a plot hole.

That's how I've always viewed it. Much like the mechs in Jacob's loyalty mission dropping thermal clips despite their weapons being from ten years ago, it's in place to allow people to play the game without imposing limitations to the point it becomes unenjoyable or outright unplayable. 

[Foolsfolly]

Oh how a mage wearing basic clothes can have an arrow to the head, get set on fire, and have multiple swords cleave their flesh without dying.

Gameplay has to be somewhat separated from the story. Should it have been with the mages? I think it would have boosted replay value if playing as a mage had a big difference but since it didn't...

[Maria Caliban]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
The magic one is a gameplay overriding story thing. Not a plot hole.

That's how I've always viewed it. Much like the mechs in Jacob's loyalty mission dropping thermal clips despite their weapons being from ten years ago, it's in place to allow people to play the game without imposing limitations to the point it becomes unenjoyable or outright unplayable.

I disagree with this.

Mass Effect 2 isn't a story about how people have updated their weaponry in the last 2 years. Dragon Age II does have the persecution of mages as a prominent plotline. The ME inconsistency happens once in a single mission that you can skip. The DA inconsistency happens over and over again.

While I'm at it, if you're going to create a setting where mages are hated, feared, and imprisioned, and you're going to let people play mages, then you should be willing to commit the zots to have that reflected in the way NPCs treat the PC.

If you're going to create a story about mages being horribly persecuted, then you ought to spend time making sure that's reflected in the mage experience.

If NPCs treating the PC like you say they ought to makes the player's experience miserable, then why include that in the setting and story in the first place? There are tons of fantasy setting where being a mage does not automatically mean being locked up.

[Xilizhra]

I think it's because in Origins, a mage PC had a free pass for being a Warden, and they didn't want to remove a class option for DA2. Of course, I feel that Hawke should have been a mage automatically, with the mage spells laid out with far more detail and customization, but I can see where people would have been annoyed.

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think it's because in Origins, a mage PC had a free pass for being a Warden, and they didn't want to remove a class option for DA2. Of course, I feel that Hawke should have been a mage automatically, with the mage spells laid out with far more detail and customization, but I can see where people would have been annoyed.

Actually he (or she) didn't.  When Loghain declared all Wardens traitors, the protection of being a Grey Warden vanished with it.   After DAO, yeah sure.  Being a Grey Warden grants immunity (and during Ostagar as well)...but not for the rest of the game (except Orzmmar where Chantry writ doesn't run).

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

Well, yeah, but by then, being a Grey Warden is a bigger problem. And it's not like most of the people of Ferelden agree with Loghain. The only people who might object, the templars, are tied up managing Lothering or getting killed in the Circle tower. Until the latter is saved, at which point they're not inclined to go after you.

[Sabriana]

To me, it is a plot-hole. The central issue of the whole story is templar/chantry/mages. To allow the player to chose the mage built should have consequences. The story doesn't even try to explain why Hawke gets away with being a mage, while other mages are in danger of being slaughtered on sight when they are simply trying to leave the gallows.

If you chose a central theme in which the persecution of one group is shown over and over again, yet, the PC can be a member of the persecuted group without having to face any consequences at all, then something is wrong.

A young mage is threatened by a sadistic templar for simply trying to reach her family. The mages of Starkhaven are threatened with anihilation by a zealot templar *after* they surrender. The mages are treated to a lock-down after the templar boss gets more and more paranoid, yet, mageHawke, an unharrowed apostate, is not even recognized not matter what she does.

The most glaring is a conversation with a high ranking templar (and one who should really, really know better). After mageHawke specifically states "I'm a mage", he answers with "mages are not like you and I". That is sloppy story telling, sorry. I like bioware, and I like them a lot, but this is not a good story.

NPCs don't react to a mage throwing spells with reckless abandon, neither do guards. Yes, guards do lend a helping hand to aid the templars, Aveline mentions it at one point (Fenris recruiting?).

Personally, I fully expected that there would be repercussions when I picked the mage build. I expected that there would be consequences if mageHawke used magic/wore robes/staff within the perception of templars and guards. I thought that perhaps the magePC would be able to conceal her true nature somehow. The battles within Kirkwall are not that many where templars and/or guards are present. It could have been done. She already can melee with her staff, so let her use a dagger when inside a city and templars/guards are in perception range.

I had to get a mod that made it possible for mageHawke to wear the light leather armor. I got a mode that made the staff invisible. I took great pains to have her only use the staff at melee inside Kirwall during times when guards/templars were around. It was a pain in the neck, but the whole story made no sense to me otherwise. NPCs still didn't react with any consequences when she outed herself, unfortunately.

As far as I'm concerned, status and riches should not be enough to keep the templars away from Hawke. It didn't work for Isolde, and she had both. Not to mention that Connor was a blood relation to the royal line, nephew to Queen Rowan. That didn't help him much, and Isolde tried to circumvent the law on her own. That didn't work out so well, didn't it?

[TheBlackBaron]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually he (or she) didn't.  When Loghain declared all Wardens traitors, the protection of being a Grey Warden vanished with it.   After DAO, yeah sure.  Being a Grey Warden grants immunity (and during Ostagar as well)...but not for the rest of the game (except Orzmmar where Chantry writ doesn't run).

-Polaris

Only in as much as the populace and local authorities were willing to go along with that, which is to say not much at all, going by our interactions in DA:O. 

I mean, heck, technically speaking Loghain and Howe would have been fully within their rights to arrest the Warden and Co. the second they entered Denerim and completely deny them entry to the Landsmeet. So obviously there was something else in play. 

@Xil: Yeah, that would annoyed me to no end, being forced to play a mage. Unlike most people on this forum, I play warriors first and foremost, as opposed to rogues or mages. 

[Xilizhra]

The most glaring is a conversation with a high ranking templar (and one who should really, really know better). After mageHawke specifically states "I'm a mage", he answers with "mages are not like you and I". That is sloppy story telling, sorry. I like bioware, and I like them a lot, but this is not a good story.

Wait, what the hell? I've never taken that line, but srsly? Weak, Bioware.

I do understand gameplay and story segregation, but really, the story should have been built around being a mage.

[Realmzmaster]

Simply put if the mage class was eliminated from DA 2 players would be upset. If your character had to spent the entire game constantly dodging the templars because you have a mage in your party or your Hawke was a mage many gamers would be upset.
If you had to face magic using enemies without mages in your party many gamers would be upset. So the mages in you party and a Hawke mage get plot shielded.
For the sake of consistency I would have preferred the no mage option, but I understand why that would not fly.
What could have been done is that is that any quest that had templar involvement no mage could be in the party. Effectively they would be locked out and you would have to select other party members. Obviously this would not work if your Hawke was a mage. The only way around that is to have another non-mage party member head up the non-mage party for that quest. Which plain and simply would not fly with a lot of gamers.
If you think that the plot holes in DA 2 (among other things) caused an uproar, just think what removing a class would cause.
I remember gamers would wanted to import their Warden who did the US into Awakenings which made no sense.
I thought all mages in DA 2 should have been in disguise with tiny little wands or using only hand gestures so that they blended in better. But gamers would have objected to that.
So the plat hole remains out of necessity.

[IanPolaris]

Sabriana wrote...

To me, it is a plot-hole. The central issue of the whole story is templar/chantry/mages. To allow the player to chose the mage built should have consequences. The story doesn't even try to explain why Hawke gets away with being a mage, while other mages are in danger of being slaughtered on sight when they are simply trying to leave the gallows.

I agree.  It's a particularly obnoxious plothole in Act I especially when you cast open battlemagic (chain-lightning in my case) in Grand Central Templar Station just to survive and you are 15minutes off the boat as a penniless refugee.  Any logic would have had you do some very fast talking to the local templars at the very least!  It remains obnoxious through Act I and even Act II (but at least in Act II you are a noble and thus presumably have some political pull).

Only in Act III does Meredith flat out state that ,"Yes you are a mage and I'm ignoring that because for the moment I think you are more useful to me outside the Gallows than in it."

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

My rationalization: You killed all of the templars tracking you in Tranquility, and after Enemies Among Us, Cullen decided to cover you up out of gratitude.

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

The most glaring is a conversation with a high ranking templar (and one who should really, really know better). After mageHawke specifically states "I'm a mage", he answers with "mages are not like you and I". That is sloppy story telling, sorry. I like bioware, and I like them a lot, but this is not a good story.

Wait, what the hell? I've never taken that line, but srsly? Weak, Bioware.

I do understand gameplay and story segregation, but really, the story should have been built around being a mage.

He says it.  He says it right after you might have done bloodmagic right in his face to save his life too.  Specifically he says, "Mages are dangerous weapons that need to be locked up.  They are not people like you or me."  (I am quoting this from memory but I believe it's very close).  It's a real jaw dropper not just as a plot hole, but a real charming insight into just how "liberal" and "humane" Cullen really is (which is not very).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

My rationalization: You killed all of the templars tracking you in Tranquility, and after Enemies Among Us, Cullen decided to cover you up out of gratitude.

Except in Act I and II, Cullen quite openly doesn't think you are a mage and all but says so (even to the point in Act 2 where he says he has heard disturbing rumors about you that he hopes aren't true...if you are a mage).  HELLO, I just cast bloodmagic in your face....I am not only a mage, I am a maleficar!

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Realmzmaster wrote...

So the plat hole remains out of necessity.

I disagree it was necessary.  The fight in front of the Guard Captain was totally unnecessary.  If Bioware removes that fight, then for the rest of the time you have two fairly powerful organizations (Red Iron or Coterie) that will "Cover" for you (i.e. bribe templars to look the other way) for the rest of the prologue.  In fact an additional quest might have been forthcoming to KEEP those bribes coming from either (just as one possible plot exdample)  to insure your Mage's safety.  Other methodes (or ways to bribe the templars) might have been in the offing two.

I KNOW Bioware can do this.  They had an almost identical situation in Athkatla where open magic outside the Cowled Wizards was illegal.   Solution:  Pay a "hefty bribe".  It might have been a simplistic solution, but it at least addresses the issue....

-Polaris

[Sabriana]

If I, a laywoman in story-telling, can make the mageHawke story at least a little palpable in my game, then there is no reason to suspect that the DA dev team (professionals in that field) cannot do the same. After all, it is *their* story, *their* lore, *their* background. They had total control over the story from beginning to end.

I can play races other than human in other games (werewolves for example) and I can play as a vampire, but I am warned that it will have consequences that come with the additional power. I fully expected this to happen in DA 2. As in:

"Certainly, you can be a mage. But be aware that there is a different take on the build, and with the additional mage power there will be consequences if it is used without thinking. Such as using it in broad daylight within the city of Kirkwall."

I can imagine that Emeric would turn a blind eye. The man is virtually alone in his quest to find out the truth pertaining Mharen. He has no allies, not even the guards. Thrask is sympathetic anyway, so a bit of fast-talking/persuasion could work on him. Cullen, not so much. However, when his 'stuff' happens, spells are flying all over the place and I can strain my imagination toward "oh well, he simply couldn't tell where the spells are coming from." A huge stretch, but at least it's something of an explanation.

Most of the in-City fights take place at night. Take the few guards/templars roaming about out of perception range, and it'll be okay, although what could be done with the citizens standing around, not reacting to anything at all, I don't know.

[Dave of Canada]

Sabriana wrote...

If I, a laywoman in story-telling, can make the mageHawke story at least a little palpable in my game, then there is no reason to suspect that the DA dev team (professionals in that field) cannot do the same.

Except for financial and gameplay reasons.

[Sabriana]

Financial maybe, game-play no. They had to be aware that the story line would clash with their own back-story and lore where mages are concerned. They are not stupid, after all. I refuse to believe that.

There are ways to make it at least a little easier to swallow. If I can do that to a small extend, then so can they. Iirc, when mageHawke hesitates toward Grace, the woman does not hesitate to threaten mageHawke with exposure That actually made me laugh at my monitor. Exposure? Pah! Nobody exposed herself more than mageHawke already did.