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[GSSAGE7]

Awakening supposedly takes place 6 months after Origins, yes? And in the best possible epilogue, Anders leaves and comes back 2 months later? That's around 4 months at least for him to get possessed by Justice and run off to Kirkwall, at least. There's also the fact that we don't know when exactly the Hawkes run from Lothering takes place, or how long it takes for them to get to Kirkwall.
For all we know, The Warden was leading the armies to Denerim while Hawke was deciding wether to side with the Mercenaries or the Smugglers.

[helloween7]

Hm. The destruction of Lothering happens very early in DAO, the moment you complete the first main mission. That means there is still most of a year of Blight left, plus Awakening.

We see Lothering smoking in the background during the prologue of DA2, which means the Hawkes left town as it was being destroyed.

And then Flemeth helped them reach Gwaren.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to think that getting passage on a ship from Gwaren to Kirkwall took a year and a half at the very least. That's the only way the timeline would make any sense, yet it is never explained or addressed in game.

Another plothole I've found refers to the lyrium idol. Why is Hawke immune to its maddening effect? Why is Varric immune, too, when they first find it, but not during his Act III personal quest? Both Hawke and Varric touch the thing in the Primeval Thaig when they find it, and nothing happens. The instant Bartrand gets his hand on the idol, BAM, insant homicidal maniac. And in Bartrand's estate, the lyrium fragment affects only Varric. Hawke can take it for him/herself without nothing happening (and it's even worse if you let Varric keep the lyrium fragment: you get an upgrade for Bianca and Varric returns to normal... how does that make any sense at all?).

Modifié par helloween7, 05 mai 2011 - 10:24 .

[Andraste_Reborn]

Another plothole I've found refers to the lyrium idol. Why is Hawke immune to its maddening effect? Why is Varric immune, too, when they first find it, but not during his Act III personal quest?

I don't think that's a plot hole, more a currently unanswered question. There could be any number of answers, we just haven't got one yet.

For example: maybe the idol is sentient. It deliberately latched onto Bartrand and then Meredith. The piece left behind in the mansion has more limited intelligence, and reaches out to Varric because he's the closest thing to Bartrand in the house. Once it's melted down and attached to Bianca, perhaps it doesn't have the capacity to 'sing' any longer. (We know that Sandal turning it into a rune denatures it, for sure.)

[Sabriana]

NanoKitty wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

If I, a laywoman in story-telling, can make the mageHawke story at least a little palpable in my game, then there is no reason to suspect that the DA dev team (professionals in that field) cannot do the same. After all, it is *their* story, *their* lore, *their* background. They had total control over the story from beginning to end.

I can play races other than human in other games (werewolves for example) and I can play as a vampire, but I am warned that it will have consequences that come with the additional power. I fully expected this to happen in DA 2. As in:

"Certainly, you can be a mage. But be aware that there is a different take on the build, and with the additional mage power there will be consequences if it is used without thinking. Such as using it in broad daylight within the city of Kirkwall."
.

The bolded quote above.... now THAT would have been fun.  I was looking forward to playing a mage (a blood-mage too, even though I always chose the "good" options) and seeing how people reacted to me.  Such lazy storywriting in DA2 completely misses what could have been great fun .... and added replay value as well.   I was expecting to have a quest where most or all of the mages in my party (myself included) were arrested, and having to escape before being made tranquil/executed/tortured.....  
And what is up with Anders tearing into Merrill every opportunity about her blood magic, and not a peep about it to me, even though I'm romancing him as a malifecar?!

Iknowrite? The way I did it to make it playable (to me, personally) was to mod up. I was able to deck Hawke out in leather rogue armor, and the staff was hidden (she put an invisibility spell on it, lol). If there was a fight in daytime Kirkwall, she was moved into melee only. I love that mages can use their staffs (staves?) as melee weapons. That was a great idea, btw. Luckily, fights in daytime Kirkwall were pretty few in number. Because neither templars nor guards bothered to get close enough in fights anyway, they couldn't really see that mageHawke was using a mage-staff not a quarterstaff.

There were instances where it was impossible to do without wiping the whole party. Cullen, well, spells were flying everywhere, and it was hard to see. Emeric was all alone, no one believed him, and he had no allies. He simply took what he could get, and he was a nice guy anyway. Thrask was sympathetic to begin with, Keran owed Hawke his life, sanity, and job.

Later on I simply worked Elthina in there. Hawke's actions as a free mage were more important than locking her up. Elthina ran interference, and took the practical route of leaving mageHawke be (telling Meredith to be a good girl *grin*). Of course, Elthina would insist that Hawke undergo the Harrowing, but Hawke (just as her cousin) would have no problem being harrowed.

Your idea of Hawke (and fellow mages) being arrested is interesting too. It would need a bit of work to explain her continued existance in Kirkwall, but Elthina could be worked in there as well.

Modifié par Sabriana, 05 mai 2011 - 10:49 .

[Ulicus]

helloween7 wrote...

Hm. The destruction of Lothering happens very early in DAO, the moment you complete the first main mission. That means there is still most of a year of Blight left, plus Awakening.

We see Lothering smoking in the background during the prologue of DA2, which means the Hawkes left town as it was being destroyed.

And then Flemeth helped them reach Gwaren.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to think that getting passage on a ship from Gwaren to Kirkwall took a year and a half at the very least. That's the only way the timeline would make any sense, yet it is never explained or addressed in game.

I haven't seen anyone suggest that it took them a year and a half to get from Gwaren to Kirkwall and, well, it's frankly incorrect to suggest that's the only way the timeline would make sense.

It's really not a huge stretch to think that Hawke getting from Lothering to Kirkwall took anywhere between 3-6 months (especially when you recall that not every ship leaving from Gwaren would be bound for Kirkwall and a LOT of Fereldens were fleeing to Kirkwall) and that's all the time you need when you factor in Hawke's year of servitude as well.

We're told the entire Blight -- including the unknown length of time before the Warden was recruited -- lasted about a year. But saying something lasted "a year" can be taken as an approximation unless we're told it lasted "exactly" a year... which we're not. So it is more than possible that the Blight was closer to ten months, than twelve. And when you also consider that Jory was recruited a month before the Warden, during the Blight, we know that at least a month of Blight had already passed by the time the Warden arrived at Ostagar.

So, lets say there was a month of Blight, then Ostagar, another month, Lothering falls and then a minimum of three months for Hawke's journey from Lothering to Kirkwall. That's at least five months of the Blight gone, possibly more, by the time Hawke and his family arrive. Then you've got his year (which, again, could be an approximation -- who says it's exactly a year? Maybe it's a little more) of work for the smugglers/mercenaries.

You can find solutions just as easily as problems if you look.

EDIT: And keep in mind that we've been told Awakening happens sooner than six months after Origins, now.

Modifié par Ulicus, 05 mai 2011 - 12:05 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Uzzy wrote...

Financial reasons? Bioware aren't some struggling indie developer with six people tops. They are a massive company themselves, owned by one of the biggest companies on earth.

Gameplay reasons are just an excuse, really. Infact, the story would have been a lot better if gameplay reflected the story.

Which in no way means that the Dragon Age team isn't limited in resources as is, let alone that they have the resources to design a radically different game experience for the one-third of Hawkes who go mage.

They weren't even prepared for radically altering story arches in the game as is, and you're going to argue that they had the resources and reason to pursue a major one from player start?

[Zeevico]

Yeah, the whole non-reaction to mages thing is absurd. For a game purporting to tell a much more focused story about the 'champion's rise in kirkwall' it really ought to account for the champion's specific identity and for the fact that spellcasting occurs all too frequently inside the city limits and in plain view of guards or templars.

If the storyline can't account for that, it's a major weakness in a game which focuses on mages and templars fighting out in kirkwall in plain view of templars.

Given the above it was  a mistake to release the game with the storyline it had.

Modifié par Zeevico, 05 mai 2011 - 12:34 .

[Zeevico]

Andrastee wrote...

Another plothole I've found refers to the lyrium idol. Why is Hawke immune to its maddening effect? Why is Varric immune, too, when they first find it, but not during his Act III personal quest?

My guess? Not enough time spent with the idol.
.

[helloween7]

Zeevico wrote...

Andrastee wrote...

Another plothole I've found refers to the lyrium idol. Why is Hawke immune to its maddening effect? Why is Varric immune, too, when they first find it, but not during his Act III personal quest?

My guess? Not enough time spent with the idol.
.

I don't think it's a matter of time. Bartrand was affected instanly, for example, and Hawke can spend a lot of time with the lyrium fragment in his/her pocket without going nuts, before giving it to Sandal.

Maybe the idol/fragment does discriminate its targets, and I can accept Hawke having Plot Immunity, but what does the thing seek that Varric lacks in Act I but has in Act III?

[Avissel]

A strong desire?

Bartrends desire for money, Meredith's desire for Power, Varric's desire for an explanation of Batrend's actions? The Varric one is a bit a of a stretch I admit.

[Zeevico]

I don't think it's a matter of time. Bartrand was affected instanly, for example,

Agree to disagree. I just thought he was being himself.

[blauterranit]

Perhaps because Hawke is able to avoid demons corruption? perhaps the champion's will is stronger than anyone and for that is THE CHAMPION, able to win an Aritosh in singular combat or any heroicity else? And for that the Divine is seeking for him/her as the one and only saviour of the future of Free Marks???

Where's your free imagination, guys? Can't you believe in Heros enough? :-( It's Dragon Age!!!,

[blauterranit]

Perhaps because Hawke is able to avoid demons corruption? perhaps the champion's will is stronger than anyone and for that is THE CHAMPION, able to win an Aritosh in singular combat or any heroicity else? And for that the Divine is seeking for him/her as the one and only saviour of the future of Free Marks???

Where's your free imagination, guys? Can't you believe in Heros enough? :-( It's Dragon Age!!!,

[PlumPaul93]

blauterranit wrote...

Perhaps because Hawke is able to avoid demons corruption? perhaps the champion's will is stronger than anyone and for that is THE CHAMPION, able to win an Aritosh in singular combat or any heroicity else? And for that the Divine is seeking for him/her as the one and only saviour of the future of Free Marks???

Where's your free imagination, guys? Can't you believe in Heros enough? :-( It's Dragon Age!!!,

hawke isn't a hero

[Avissel]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

hawke isn't a hero

How do you figure?

[PlumPaul93]

Avissel wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

hawke isn't a hero

How do you figure?

honestly who does he save during the whole game that he doesn't later kill? Sure you can say he saved kirkwall but wasn't it his fault that the attack happened? Tell me something hawke did that makes him a hero because I didn't see him as one at all.

[blauterranit]

Define Hero....

[Avissel]

Being a hero doesn't mean you save everybody you come across and everything works out fine in the end.

Besides there are plenty of people Hawke can save and not kill.

[blauterranit]

hero (male) and heroine (female) came to refer to characters who, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self sacrifice (wikipedia) etc, etc...

But altough, Hawke is an hero for his/her family, friends, he has a statue on his Honour.... wanted or not, by azard or not... but is who is... from de no-one to the legend.. ins't that a Hero? or you need be an example of perfection to be a Hero?

[PlumPaul93]

blauterranit wrote...

hero (male) and heroine (female) came to refer to characters who, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self sacrifice (wikipedia) etc, etc...

But altough, Hawke is an hero for his/her family, friends, he has a statue on his Honour.... wanted or not, by azard or not... but is who is... from de no-one to the legend.. ins't that a Hero? or you need be an example of perfection to be a Hero?

If I'm correct doesn't the definition end with for the greater good? What was the greater good in DA2? The way I saw it was hawke was trying to save his ass and stay alive. Is that a bad thing no. Does that make him a hero no. Also back onto the topics of plot holes, it is alright to have a few plot holes but the amount that occured in DA2 was pathetic.

[Dean_the_Young]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Avissel wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

hawke isn't a hero

How do you figure?

honestly who does he save during the whole game that he doesn't later kill? Sure you can say he saved kirkwall but wasn't it his fault that the attack happened? Tell me something hawke did that makes him a hero because I didn't see him as one at all.

Since when did heroes ever have to save anyone? Most the great Greek heroes of the classics were notorious for not managing to save everyone.

[Avissel]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...
If I'm correct doesn't the definition end with for the greater good? What was the greater good in DA2? The way I saw it was hawke was trying to save his ass and stay alive. Is that a bad thing no. Does that make him a hero no. Also back onto the topics of plot holes, it is alright to have a few plot holes but the amount that occured in DA2 was pathetic.

Several times you are allowed to express that you are doing things for the good of everbody. A diplomatic Hawke even says so as banter when clicked on. "Let's make Kirkwall a better place for everybody."


On the topic of plot holes, most of the mage issues can just be hand waved without any real bother. The only ones that really bothered me were when you used magic in a fight followed by dialouge where someone mention that fact that you just fought right in front of them. The Dock Guard at the start, the first time to meet Cullin.

Most of the "hey I just helped a Templar with magic" ones could have been hand waved had they put in something something reasonable to explain them not seeing you, like Cullin gets knocked out by the abomination right as you join the fight, something along those lines.

[blauterranit]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

blauterranit wrote...

hero (male) and heroine (female) came to refer to characters who, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self sacrifice (wikipedia) etc, etc...

But altough, Hawke is an hero for his/her family, friends, he has a statue on his Honour.... wanted or not, by azard or not... but is who is... from de no-one to the legend.. ins't that a Hero? or you need be an example of perfection to be a Hero?

If I'm correct doesn't the definition end with for the greater good? What was the greater good in DA2? The way I saw it was hawke was trying to save his ass and stay alive. Is that a bad thing no. Does that make him a hero no. Also back onto the topics of plot holes, it is alright to have a few plot holes but the amount that occured in DA2 was pathetic.

Right, you maybe live your performance of Hawke feeling you an Hero or not, but at the end of history, Hawke become a Hero, you like it or not. Chantry looks for you as an hero (the one who can save a whole land: thats looks an hero to me) Even if your own deep you're only saving your own live, anyway, your actions finally lead Mages or Templars. As Odisessus, you can't run away from your fate... It's Dragon Age, you're becoming an Hero... or don't play if you don't want be one.  No choice.

About  plot holes, I wrote a post titled "just about Leliana" about the missing of years of neighborship between her and Hawke in Lothering. I agree that a DA2 is plenty of anachrologic mistakes. Maybe by pressions of EA to Bioware, maybe by a new team of scriptwriters... who knows...

PS
The Hero of DAO didn't want to be a hero, he was recluted by force at grey warden for saving his own "ass" or  honour (Cousland case)... once in that issue... what to do going alive?

[JustinS1985]

I'm surprised no one mentioned this, but one plot inconsistency that bothered me was the arishok. In DAO sren constantly questioned me about how my femwarden was able to fight. Women couldn't be warriors or fighters according to the qun.

Enter the arishok in DA2 who never bats an eye at my femhawke, treats her like a strong warrior, and even challenges her to a one on one fight to the death. Maybe I'm wrong, but from what I understand of the qun challenging a female to a fight like that would be the equivalent of challenging a toddler to a fight to the death.

[blauterranit]

That Fenris give the answer when the arishok tell him that qunari never fight against females.... The same arishok give to the female Hawke a status quite respectable, worthy to fight with him, male or not male... I can't writte it... it was a qunari expression and I have not learnt this language yet :-D