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Plot holes in the Dragon Age II story


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#76
Maren03

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There were a lot of plotholes with Anders and Justice's backstory:  The timeline was waay off, their epilogues completely dismissed. I hear Bioware's trying to brush the other endings off as just 'rumors' but even if they tried to do that, it still doesn't change many of the other plotholes that took place based on the Warden's decisions and the plot's logic.

  • For example, he's a Grey Warden no matter what you do, but its possible in Awakenings to turn him down and NEVER recruit him, period. Same with Justice. So why is he always listed as a Warden? And before anyone says 'he could have just lied' what social benefit would that have when he proclaims to be hiding FROM the wardens? How could he have known so much private information about them, (such as the Warden locations in the deep roads to save Bethany/Carver) if you NEVER recruited him to begin with? How did Anders and Justice meet for that to happen? And didn't the Warden need to HELP Justice win the fight against the Baroness to recruit him? If that never happened and you never pursued quests in the blackmarsh, again, how could they have met? How could he have possessed Kristoff? How could he have met Anders?
                                                          
  •  Some may make the claim "Well he and Justice could have just joined another Warden group" if both characters exist in Thedas but were never recruited, BUT here's the kicker: How does Anders know Nathaniel in the Deep Roads? And how is he so well-established with the Dalish Warden commander if he/she was used on your playthrough and they're brought up through Merill? Also, Ser-Pounce-Alot further implied he was affiliated with Amaranthine, because in order to have asscoiates there he'd trust enough to keep him he'd have had to have been there long enough. All these things considered really dissuades the notion he'd have been recruited by another group.
  • This is another minor plothole, but if Anders is retconned to fake his death during the struggle in Amaranthine, why would he have had to give up Ser-Pounce-Alot in the first place?
  • Even if Justice and Anders meet, the transition doesn't make much sense, and if you read Hepler's story, the plotholes become even more glaringly obvious. According to Hepler's story Anders saw no need for the Circle, but in Awakenings there he is siding with Wynne against the libertarians proclaiming if they left it'd just be a "recipe for disaster". How did Anders get from that to dismissing any need for the Circle and trying to destroy the it when, even in DA2 he admits to Bethany that the Circle is the only way to ensure a mage gets properly educated? You'll get rivalry points from him in-game if you even say that circle has purpose. Also, Why is it that in Hepler's story he questions why mages have never rebelled despite residing in the Circle where Uldred attempted to usurp power? According to Awakenings, Anders' most prominent issue was that there was no way a mage could prove himself to the world.

Unrelated to Anders, I found it odd how Sandal could be in DA:O's witch Hunt, which took place 2 years after the Blight, but still be in Kirkwall. "Enchantment" indeed. :whistle:

Modifié par Maren03, 05 mai 2011 - 07:41 .


#77
IanPolaris

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JustinS1985 wrote...

I'm surprised no one mentioned this, but one plot inconsistency that bothered me was the arishok. In DAO sren constantly questioned me about how my femwarden was able to fight. Women couldn't be warriors or fighters according to the qun.

Enter the arishok in DA2 who never bats an eye at my femhawke, treats her like a strong warrior, and even challenges her to a one on one fight to the death. Maybe I'm wrong, but from what I understand of the qun challenging a female to a fight like that would be the equivalent of challenging a toddler to a fight to the death.


In the eyes of the Arishok you aren't female.  You're role in the world (assuming you earned his respect) is Basalit'An (respected outsider).  The fact your form is female is completely irrelevent to the Qun.  It's your role that matters.

-Polaris

#78
Jedi Master of Orion

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I get the impression that Sten has led a very sheltered existence too. The Arishok is probably wordly enough to know he'd encounter female warriors in the lands outside the Qun.

#79
GSSAGE7

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If Fenris is the one who suggests the duel, the Arishok mentions that he wouldn't battle a female. Fenris pretty much says "She's not a woman. She's a warrior who you just admitted was a respected outsider."
After that, the Arishok pretty much gives up on that.

#80
JustinS1985

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Interesting, ive never had fenris with me for that fight, the arishok always just suggested the duel on his own.

#81
erynnar

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Xilizhra wrote...

The most glaring is a conversation with a high ranking templar (and one who should really, really know better). After mageHawke specifically states "I'm a mage", he answers with "mages are not like you and I". That is sloppy story telling, sorry. I like bioware, and I like them a lot, but this is not a good story.

Wait, what the hell? I've never taken that line, but srsly? Weak, Bioware.

I do understand gameplay and story segregation, but really, the story should have been built around being a mage.


yep, tis sadly true. I picked that option, with the head of the templars, and he says mages are not like you and me. Didn't matter that I had done magic in front of him, saving him from a <spoiler> who had been infected with a <spoiler> when I first met him. He ignored it completely. I would say that is a plot hole. As I say this story and game has more holes than The Pearl and The Blooming Rose combined. Especially if you're playing a mage.

Modifié par erynnar, 06 mai 2011 - 05:39 .


#82
Guest_Alistairlover94_*

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erynnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


The most glaring is a conversation with a high ranking templar (and one who should really, really know better). After mageHawke specifically states "I'm a mage", he answers with "mages are not like you and I". That is sloppy story telling, sorry. I like bioware, and I like them a lot, but this is not a good story.

Wait, what the hell? I've never taken that line, but srsly? Weak, Bioware.

I do understand gameplay and story segregation, but really, the story should have been built around being a mage.


yep, tis sadly true. I picked that option, with the head of the templars, and he says mages are not like you and me. Didn't matter that I had done magic in front of him, saving him from a <spoiler> who had been infected with a <spoiler> when I first met him. He ignored it completely. I would say that is a plot hole. As I say this story and game has more holes than The Pearl and The Blooming Rose combined. Especially if you're playing a mage.


And don't forget MageHawke having a magic-staff strapped to her back with Velcro.

#83
Big I

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Plot Holes:

Anders/Sandal/Awakening timeline


Why do the Hawkes, one of them an apostate mage, go to templar central?


Why do the Hawkes, Fereldan refugees despised by the majority, remain in Kirkwall?


If Hawke is a blood mage, how did that happen? Did he make a deal with a demon, or can you be a blood mage without doing that?


Why would Meredith want a sword made out of lyrium?


Why doesn't Hawke kill Petrice in Act 1?


Why doesn't Hawke, being rich and (possibly) in love/friendship with Isabella, buy her a ship?


Bartrand's betrayal made little sense

#84
Zeevico

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LookingGlass93 wrote...

Plot Holes:

Anders/Sandal/Awakening timeline


Why do the Hawkes, one of them an apostate mage, go to templar central?


Why do the Hawkes, Fereldan refugees despised by the majority, remain in Kirkwall?


If Hawke is a blood mage, how did that happen? Did he make a deal with a demon, or can you be a blood mage without doing that?


Why would Meredith want a sword made out of lyrium?


Why doesn't Hawke kill Petrice in Act 1?


Why doesn't Hawke, being rich and (possibly) in love/friendship with Isabella, buy her a ship?


Bartrand's betrayal made little sense


Bartrand is just plain mean-spirited. Talk with him enough and you get that vibe. He's well written: I saw his betrayal coming the moment that cut scene started. Which is not to say that we got enough exposure to him, but I supppose that's another matter altogether.

I did like the "we could have been allies" option for Sister Petrice. Not because it's a good line, mind you. It just reminds me of that "I could have been a contender" line from On the Waterfront.

The opportunity to kill Petrice seems very appropriate given the wholesale acts of murder Hawke commits against Templars anyway without the slightest consequence. But that's another plot hole altogether.

Everything else? A wizard did it.

Modifié par Zeevico, 06 mai 2011 - 08:21 .


#85
Big I

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Zeevico wrote...
Bartrand is just plain mean-spirited. Talk with him enough and you get that vibe. He's well written: I saw his betrayal coming the moment that cut scene started. Which is not to say that we got enough exposure to him, but I supppose that's another matter altogether.



It makes sense that Bartrand is the type of person who would betray people for profit. What doesn't make sense is why he's betraying people in this instance.


Here are the questions I'm left with after his betrayal. Did he just betray Varric and Hawke, or the whole expedition? Did he always intend to skip town (thus forfeiting all his power and profit from being head of House Tethras), or did he only do that after Hawke and Varric got back? Why did he skip town in the first place (if it's just to escape Hawke and Varric, why not just try to have them killed)? Why did he think that an idol he's just seen and the location of a thaig only easily accessible after a Blight would make the trip profitable?


I'm more than willing to believe Bartrand capable of betrayal, so long as it's explained properly.

#86
Must have name

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If Hawke is a blood mage, how did that happen? Did he make a deal with a demon, or can you be a blood mage without doing that?


I think Jowan and Orsino both appear to have not made deals with demons in order to get Blood Magic. Jowan just mentions that he "dabbled in it" (probably just Mage research he'd picked up from somewhere), and Orsino may have likely learnt how (though refrained from doing so until the end) from Quentin or his own research. Ofcourse there's always little daft inconsistances with Blood Magic. Iirc Anders mentions that the only way is via a deal with a demon, ignoring the fact that he may have used Blood Magic during Awakening without every making a deal with a demon.

As others have said, the only one that really is a plot hole rather than a plot annoyance is Anders, particularly if he isn't recruited and never meets Justice in Awakening.

Modifié par Must have name, 06 mai 2011 - 10:02 .


#87
helloween7

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IIRC having a mentor or learning Blood Magic from a book also works.

It shouldn't just pop out as an option without a dedicated plot, though. It isn't a magic talent you can spontaneosuly develop, like you can have a natural talent in Elemental or Entropy magic. And the same goes for Spirit Healing.


Re: The Idol:

My Hawke is very much not a Hero. She's just trying to get by and make a living. She's also a bit on the greedy side. She's the main character, however, and, as I said, I understand her having Plot Immunity (i.e. not being affected by the lyrium idol). But if that thing had to play such a big role in the main plot, the inconsistencies of its affecting some people (Bartrand, Meredith, Varric) but not others (Varric again, Hawke, the maid in Bartrand's estate) should at least be noted if not completely explained. I'd very much like to see a future Dragon Age expanding on the lore of the primeval thaigh and the lyrium idol, but, as it is, the questions that this future plot should answer haven't even been asked, IMO.

Modifié par helloween7, 06 mai 2011 - 11:09 .


#88
IanPolaris

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helloween7 wrote...

IIRC having a mentor or learning Blood Magic from a book also works.

It shouldn't just pop out as an option without a dedicated plot, though. It isn't a school you can spontaneosuly learn, like Elemental or Entropy. And the same goes for Spirit Healing.


Except it's perfectly reasonable to presume (although I also wish the game had made it clearer) that you could learn basic spirit healing from Anders and basic bloodmagic from Merrill.  Once you know the basics, it's not inconceivable that you could have picked up the rest on your own (esp Spirit Healing).

In any event, Anders is wrong.  You don't absolutely have to deal with a demon to learn bloodmagic. It's simply the easiest way.

-Polaris

#89
helloween7

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IanPolaris wrote...

helloween7 wrote...

IIRC having a mentor or learning Blood Magic from a book also works.

It shouldn't just pop out as an option without a dedicated plot, though. It isn't a school you can spontaneosuly learn, like Elemental or Entropy. And the same goes for Spirit Healing.


Except it's perfectly reasonable to presume (although I also wish the game had made it clearer) that you could learn basic spirit healing from Anders and basic bloodmagic from Merrill.  Once you know the basics, it's not inconceivable that you could have picked up the rest on your own (esp Spirit Healing).

In any event, Anders is wrong.  You don't absolutely have to deal with a demon to learn bloodmagic. It's simply the easiest way.

-Polaris


It's also perfectly possibe to assign points to Blood Magic and Spirit Healing before meeting Merill and Anders.

I could go with your explanation if recruiting Anders unlocked the Spirit Healer tree and recruiting Merill unlocked the Blood Magic tree, but it is not so.

Modifié par helloween7, 06 mai 2011 - 11:02 .


#90
IanPolaris

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helloween7 wrote...

It's also perfectly possibe to assign points to Blood Magic and Spirit Healing before meeting Merill and Anders.

I could go with your explanation if recruiting Anders unlocked the Spirit Healer tree and recruiting Merill unlocked the Blood Magic tree, but it is not so.


Yeah I know.  I was offering an admittedly thin explaination and at least you HAVE to meet and recruit both Anders and Merrill prior to Act 2.  It would make a lot of sense if BM wasn't unlocked unless Merrill was recruited and an active member of your group and the same with Anders and SH and I don't know why Bioware didn't do that.  They did do this with DAO./DAA.

-Polaris

#91
Viyu

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Maren03 wrote...

There were a lot of plotholes with Anders and Justice's backstory:  The timeline was waay off, their epilogues completely dismissed. I hear Bioware's trying to brush the other endings off as just 'rumors' but even if they tried to do that, it still doesn't change many of the other plotholes that took place based on the Warden's decisions and the plot's logic.

  • For example, he's a Grey Warden no matter what you do, but its possible in Awakenings to turn him down and NEVER recruit him, period. Same with Justice. So why is he always listed as a Warden? And before anyone says 'he could have just lied' what social benefit would that have when he proclaims to be hiding FROM the wardens? How could he have known so much private information about them, (such as the Warden locations in the deep roads to save Bethany/Carver) if you NEVER recruited him to begin with? How did Anders and Justice meet for that to happen? And didn't the Warden need to HELP Justice win the fight against the Baroness to recruit him? If that never happened and you never pursued quests in the blackmarsh, again, how could they have met? How could he have possessed Kristoff? How could he have met Anders?
                                                          
  •  Some may make the claim "Well he and Justice could have just joined another Warden group" if both characters exist in Thedas but were never recruited, BUT here's the kicker: How does Anders know Nathaniel in the Deep Roads? And how is he so well-established with the Dalish Warden commander if he/she was used on your playthrough and they're brought up through Merill? Also, Ser-Pounce-Alot further implied he was affiliated with Amaranthine, because in order to have asscoiates there he'd trust enough to keep him he'd have had to have been there long enough. All these things considered really dissuades the notion he'd have been recruited by another group.
  • This is another minor plothole, but if Anders is retconned to fake his death during the struggle in Amaranthine, why would he have had to give up Ser-Pounce-Alot in the first place?
  • Even if Justice and Anders meet, the transition doesn't make much sense, and if you read Hepler's story, the plotholes become even more glaringly obvious. According to Hepler's story Anders saw no need for the Circle, but in Awakenings there he is siding with Wynne against the libertarians proclaiming if they left it'd just be a "recipe for disaster". How did Anders get from that to dismissing any need for the Circle and trying to destroy the it when, even in DA2 he admits to Bethany that the Circle is the only way to ensure a mage gets properly educated? You'll get rivalry points from him in-game if you even say that circle has purpose. Also, Why is it that in Hepler's story he questions why mages have never rebelled despite residing in the Circle where Uldred attempted to usurp power? According to Awakenings, Anders' most prominent issue was that there was no way a mage could prove himself to the world.:blink:

Unrelated to Anders, I found it odd how Sandal could be in DA:O's witch Hunt, which took place 2 years after the Blight, but still be in Kirkwall. "Enchantment" indeed. :whistle:



Regardless of whether or not Nathaniel is dead and unavailable in your DA2 playthrough, the fact that his and Anders' exchange would have been the default exchange if he DID live implies Anders was a part of the Vigil's wardens, which is a plothole if you had gotten rid of him during his loyalty quest or when Alistair showed up in Awakening.

Modifié par Viyu, 06 mai 2011 - 11:58 .


#92
Viyu

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Avissel wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
If NPCs treating the PC like you say they ought to makes the player's experience miserable, then why include that in the setting and story in the first place? There are tons of fantasy setting where being a mage does not automatically mean being locked up.


Because they were trying to make a setting that was unique?

Honestly the playing as a mage thing could have been handled better but I can understand why they largely ignored it. Nobody would want to play as a mage if it meant you spent every few minutes running from the Templar or not using magic so you could stay hidden.


Not if you could bribe them to not only look the other way, but to fight with you during your patrol. That, or have the areas where the thugs fight you  be the places where templars likely won't be at during the night. This could be changed everytime you enhance the difficulty. After playing Jak II, I really wouldn't mind the templar fights, this game is infinitely easier. And my thing is, you guys would complain about templar fights but then complain about how easy the game is? Sometimes it's like damned if bioware could and damned if they couldn't. I think that during act II it makes sense that the templars wouldn't fight you anymore, if what gamers here are claiming about Meredith are correct. Backing away from Anders due to his political ties with you implies that it'd be difficult for her to go after you specifically for being a mage.

Now, what should've happened to avoid the inconsistency with the thug fight that happened between the refugees and the guards early in act I was to have Leandra convince the guards to find Gamlen, and simply wait for that fight to occur AFTER you joined the coterie or the other faction so they could bribe your way in despite using magic.



The bolded quote above.... now THAT would have been fun.  I was
looking forward to playing a mage (a blood-mage too, even though I
always chose the "good" options) and seeing how people reacted to me.
 Such lazy storywriting in DA2 completely misses what could have been
great fun .... and added replay value as well.   I was expecting to have
a quest where most or all of the mages in my party (myself included)
were arrested, and having to escape before being made
tranquil/executed/tortured.....  
And what is up with Anders tearing
into Merrill every opportunity about her blood magic, and not a peep
about it to me, even though I'm romancing him as a malifecar?!


Don't forget about how it's forgotten in DA2 that Anders COULD in fact become a blood mage in awakening. :P

Modifié par Viyu, 06 mai 2011 - 12:28 .


#93
Zeevico

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[quote]It makes sense that Bartrand is the type of person who would betray people for profit. What doesn't make sense is why he's betraying people in this instance.


Here are the questions I'm left with after his betrayal...

[quote]Did he just betray Varric and Hawke, or the whole expedition? [/quote]

Good question.
[quote]
Did he always intend to skip town (thus forfeiting all his power and profit from being head of House Tethras), or did honly do that after Hawke and Varric got back? Why did he skip town in the first place (if it's just to escape Hawke and Varric, why not just try to have them killed)?[/quote]
From memory, didn't he skip town b/c he knew you were back?
Also, he was probably too afraid to send hired goons out to do a job on people who just escaped being sealed into the deep roads. That's how I'd read him anyway.

[quote]
Why did he think that an idol he's just seen and the location of a thaig only easily accessible after a Blight would make the trip profitable? [/quote]
I suppose the post-Blight profitability window is longer than we might think. Kind of like DA2's sales.

[quote]
I'm more than willing to believe Bartrand capable of betrayal, so long as it's explained properly.
[/quote]
You're right, we don't see enough explained. Fridge logic, I suppose. The game's running on a lot of it now--or maybe it seems like a lot because the plot content is relatively sparse compared to DAO (which is my theory anyway).

Modifié par Zeevico, 06 mai 2011 - 01:13 .


#94
Avissel

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LookingGlass93 wrote...
Anders/Sandal/Awakening timeline

Ander's timeline is somewhat wonky but...whats wrong with Sandals?

LookingGlass93 wrote...
Why do the Hawkes, one of them an apostate mage, go to templar central?

Because they have family there, this is pretty much the second conversation in the game.

LookingGlass93 wrote...
Why do the Hawkes, Fereldan refugees despised by the majority, remain in Kirkwall?

Because after 1 year they have a place to live and have settled in, while Lothering is still destroied and they have nothing to return to.

LookingGlass93 wrote...
If Hawke is a blood mage, how did that happen? Did he make a deal with a demon, or can you be a blood mage without doing that?

You can learn Blood Magic from without the aid of a demon it seems. Consider Origins, once you unlock it you are able to learn it on any other mage warden without the demons help and in awakening you can just find a book that will teach you.


LookingGlass93 wrote...
Why would Meredith want a sword made out of lyrium?

Lyrium fuels Templar abilities.

LookingGlass93 wrote...
Why doesn't Hawke kill Petrice in Act 1?


It's somewhat implied that her Templar guard could prove a match for you at this point, plus if you were caught murdering a Chantry Sister and a Templar, well thats not gonna look good.

LookingGlass93 wrote...
Why doesn't Hawke, being rich and (possibly) in love/friendship with Isabella, buy her a ship?


Possibly the only time you would have had enough money to get her a ship, between Acts 2 and 3, she's gone the whole time. Plus, she never asks for one because if Hawke buys it, it's not HER ship. It's your ship that you let her use. To me that sounds like a train of thought Isabella would follow.

LookingGlass93 wrote...
Bartrand's betrayal made little sense

Bartrand was instantly effected by the idol and it brought out and amplifed his worst qualities.


So yeah...you got one right.

#95
Pandaman102

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Avissel wrote...

Ander's timeline is somewhat wonky but...whats wrong with Sandals?

Sandal and Bodahn show up in Amaranthine six months after Origins, then show up in Kirkwall another half year after Awakening, stay in Kirkwall for the remaining six years, and Sandal shows up in Witch Hunt two and a half years after Origins.

It conveniently places Sandal's appearance in that three year time skip after the Deep Roads expedition, but Bodahn's dialogues imply they both go into Hawke's service almost immediately after the expedition, leaving Sandal no time to return to Ferelden.

#96
TEWR

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Without an official timeline of events that transpired in DA:O and DA2 by the devs, the timeline will continue to remain a very big problem.

Is it a plot hole? I wouldn't go that far, but it is something that needs to be addressed.

Pandaman102 wrote...

Avissel wrote...

Ander's timeline is somewhat wonky but...whats wrong with Sandals?

Sandal and Bodahn show up in Amaranthine six months after Origins, then show up in Kirkwall another half year after Awakening, stay in Kirkwall for the remaining six years, and Sandal shows up in Witch Hunt two and a half years after Origins.

It conveniently places Sandal's appearance in that three year time skip after the Deep Roads expedition, but Bodahn's dialogues imply they both go into Hawke's service almost immediately after the expedition, leaving Sandal no time to return to Ferelden.


Bodahn and Sandal were never in Amaranthine. After Origins, you only see Sandal in Witch Hunt at the Circle Tower.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 mai 2011 - 02:57 .


#97
Viyu

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Yeah, that's the one thing I found awkward about Sandal....Hm. But it's more than just timeline. It's also inconsistencies in the stories that caused the plotholes. Justice, Nathaniel, and Anders...that's a big one for some people. Foreshadowing doesn't solve everything.

#98
TEWR

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How is Nathaniel an inconsistency or plothole?

#99
NanoKitty

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I have a feeling that the developers' main goals were to: a) update the game engine and B) set up the mage/templar conflict the way they want it (railroading and plotholes included), so everything can be ready for the next game. I view this installment (sadly) as nothing but a springboard. I do have high hopes for DA3.... I hope..... Maybe it's just wishful thinking.

#100
LobselVith8

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

How is Nathaniel an inconsistency or plothole?


I believe it's Nathaniel's reference to the Architect, which is currently bugged to always state he's alive even if The Warden-Commander servered his head and hung it from Vigil's Keep as a trophy.

IanPolaris wrote...

helloween7 wrote...

IIRC having a mentor or learning Blood Magic from a book also works.

It shouldn't just pop out as an option without a dedicated plot, though. It isn't a school you can spontaneosuly learn, like Elemental or Entropy. And the same goes for Spirit Healing.


Except it's perfectly reasonable to presume (although I also wish the game had made it clearer) that you could learn basic spirit healing from Anders and basic bloodmagic from Merrill.  Once you know the basics, it's not inconceivable that you could have picked up the rest on your own (esp Spirit Healing).

In any event, Anders is wrong.  You don't absolutely have to deal with a demon to learn bloodmagic. It's simply the easiest way.

-Polaris


Learning Spirit Healer from Anders and Blood Magic from Merrill makes a great deal of sense; much more than having spontaneous knowledge about the two schools of magic.

Also, Anders does ask Merrill if she learned blood magic on her own (by accident), or if she learned it from a demon.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 06 mai 2011 - 07:31 .