181 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I believe it's Nathaniel's reference to the Architect, which is currently bugged to always state he's alive even if The Warden-Commander servered his head and hung it from Vigil's Keep as a trophy.

That's the only thing that makes sense for Nathaniel being counted in that group. They need to patch that.

[blauterranit]

For players have not saved game of DAO, the options that Bioware give are 3 (hero, martir, diplomatic, I am not sure, right now) diferents start points ofhistory. I logical think that in 18 months for devolpping so many diferents endings they only worked with these 3 standard DAO ends. and in every one of them, ALL NPC's or possible companions of the Hero of Ferelden were recluted, and trying that way minimizing time of production.

The free story's ends that Bioware gave us at DAO are impossible to follow in detail, too many options and too few time for created all them. So, too rushed for a too pretentious project,
who's surprised?

[Viyu]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

How is Nathaniel an inconsistency or plothole?

It's more like it indirectly reveals a plothole. Nathaniel's dialogue with Anders is default should he be alive after the assault on Vigil's keep, an implication that the Wardens that Anders was with was in fact YOUR group of Grey Wardens. Which is plothole-ridden if you got rid of Anders during Awakening when Alistair showed up for example. That's the simple version of this plothole. If the Blackmarsh sidequest was an optional one like Maren says (and I think it is), then it's possible that Justice could still be in the fade in some stories because he needed your help to defeat the Baroness, and should never have posessed Kristoff, and should never have come into contact with the physical world to meet Anders to have posessed him in the first place.

Modifié par Viyu, 06 mai 2011 - 10:52 .

[TEWR]

The Blackmarsh wasn't optional.

[Big I]

Avissel wrote...
Ander's timeline is somewhat wonky but...whats wrong with Sandals?

Because they have family there, this is pretty much the second conversation in the game.

Because after 1 year they have a place to live and have settled in, while Lothering is still destroied and they have nothing to return to.

You can learn Blood Magic from without the aid of a demon it seems. Consider Origins, once you unlock it you are able to learn it on any other mage warden without the demons help and in awakening you can just find a book that will teach you.

Lyrium fuels Templar abilities.

It's somewhat implied that her Templar guard could prove a match for you at this point, plus if you were caught murdering a Chantry Sister and a Templar, well thats not gonna look good.

Possibly the only time you would have had enough money to get her a ship, between Acts 2 and 3, she's gone the whole time. Plus, she never asks for one because if Hawke buys it, it's not HER ship. It's your ship that you let her use. To me that sounds like a train of thought Isabella would follow.

Bartrand was instantly effected by the idol and it brought out and amplifed his worst qualities.

A plot hole doesn't dissappear because the audience creates a fix for it. So believeing that Hawke didn't kill Petrice becuse he was worried about the consequences of killing a Chantry sister, while a possible explanation, doesn't matter unless that's mentioned in game. Any plot hole could be solved by saying "Flemeth/a blood mage did it", but that doesn't mean that was the actual reason.


As for the plot holes I mentioned:

-Sandal is in Witch Hunt, which happens sometime during the timeline covered by DA2

-The "we have family" explanation makes little sense since they still have people they know in Fereldan (they write to them in Act 1) and Kirkwall has a lot of intolerant templars, but it is an explanation (however shoddy).

-They have less than nothing in Kirkwall except discrimination for their nationality, poverty, and templars, and they have people they know in Fereldan and self identify as Fereldans.

-Anders makes the point in several conversations that blood magic can only be learnt from demons. Origins spec unlocking is an example of story/gameplay separation.

-Meredith is the head templar, and has access to as much lyrium as she wants. She doesn't need a sword, nor is it ever mentioned in game that having a whole bunch of raw lyrium would be desireable for a templar.

-No one ever says "we can't kill Petrice because she's in the Chantry", and by this point we've already taken out a lot of templars in Anders' reruitment mission. One guy intimidates Hawke?

-By Act 2 Hawke is rich. By Act 3 he's presumably richer. At either of those points Hawke could have bought her a ship, and it's just as likely that she'd have taken the gift and a)paid Hawke back or b)steal it.

-We see he's affected by the idol, but not that it instantly takes him over. His conversation with Varric before he leaves suggests he was planning the betrayal all along.

Modifié par LookingGlass93, 07 mai 2011 - 09:33 .

[Lumikki]

Sabriana wrote...

To me, it is a plot-hole. The central issue of the whole story is templar/chantry/mages. To allow the player to chose the mage built should have consequences. The story doesn't even try to explain why Hawke gets away with being a mage, while other mages are in danger of being slaughtered on sight when they are simply trying to leave the gallows.

It's not plot-hole. It's lore design mistake. Meaning  it was mistake to create lore where player character class has high affect to gameplay lore it self. Meaning game can not EVER handle this well, because it's not profitable for game company to design multible "stories" to handle different player classes because lore.  That's why people says gameplay goes over the lore, because there isn't any other realistic choise. Problem is in the base lore design. In DAO they solved this design problem just ignoring it, as creating immunity for it, "Warden".

Modifié par Lumikki, 07 mai 2011 - 09:50 .

[helloween7]

Lumikki wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

To me, it is a plot-hole. The central issue of the whole story is templar/chantry/mages. To allow the player to chose the mage built should have consequences. The story doesn't even try to explain why Hawke gets away with being a mage, while other mages are in danger of being slaughtered on sight when they are simply trying to leave the gallows.

It's not plot-hole. It's lore design mistake. Meaning  it was mistake to create lore where player character class has high affect to gameplay lore it self. Meaning game can not EVER handle this well, because it's not profitable for game company to design multible "stories" to handle different player classes because lore.  That's why people says gameplay goes over the lore, because there isn't any other realistic choise. Problem is in the base lore design. In DAO they solved this design problem just ignoring it, as creating immunity for it, "Warden".

That's not ignoring it, that's addressing it. They did provide an explanation for plot immunity in the form of the Warden's right to police themselves and populace sympathy regarding Loghain's accusations.

In Act I, the Hawkes have ended their indenture to the criminal band of their choice and are very explicitly no longer protected by them (that's why they seek out Bartrand in the first place). In act II it's said that Hawke's position as a noble is protecting him/her, but that doesn't help Emile de Launcet later (Emile is pruportedly a Blood Mage, yes, but Hawke can really be one as well). Varric is protecting Anders and Merrill from the ciminal elements of Kirkwall, but, IIRC, at no time in the game does he mention the Templars, and by Act II Hawke's position shouldn't protect them as well. Only in Act III is there a real reason for the whole mage lot to be left alone by the Templars, since Hawke is the Champion and important enough to extend his/her immunity to their friends. 

[Sabriana]

To me, personally, a plot hole is a hole in the plot line. The overriding plot in DA 2 is templar vs mage. You can disagree, but I will still see it as a hole in the plot line. It's most definitely a lore shredder, without any doubt. As is the "bloodmage" spec for the companions in DA:O, and for the PC in DA 2. A hole in the plot-line is a plot-hole for me. It always will be that way. Semantics and/or word-play matter none, and it's as simple as that for me.

The bloodmage spec for the PC in DA:O can at least be reasonably waved aside by the Warden credo "in fighting a blight, everything is allowed".

It is their story, lore, background. They build it from the ground up. Somehow I can't see anyone holding a gun to their heads and making them write a storyline that wreaks havoc with *their own* creation. They controlled it from A to Z, from beginning to end.

[Lumikki]

helloween7 wrote...


That's not ignoring it, that's addressing it. They did provide an explanation for plot immunity in the form of the Warden's right to police themselves and populace sympathy regarding Loghain's accusations.

You missed the point.

Meaning in hole DA series there is this mage related lore issues. DAO was able to "solve" it by creating "Warren", so player could dismiss the issue. How ever, the base lore problem is still behind it. That's what you see in DA2 story, when the "immunity" solution is gone. The base lore mage class related problem shows it ugly head.

Never create lore where player class choises has so HUGE affect the lore as how story should go. That's design mistake and it's in lore it self. Of couse the DA2 problem was even bring the mage/templar conflict in story, because it also did bring the mage class lore issue in open.

Modifié par Lumikki, 07 mai 2011 - 10:50 .

[IanPolaris]

Lumikki wrote...

helloween7 wrote...


That's not ignoring it, that's addressing it. They did provide an explanation for plot immunity in the form of the Warden's right to police themselves and populace sympathy regarding Loghain's accusations.

You missed the point.

Meaning in hole DA series there is this mage related lore issues. DAO was able to "solve" it by creating "Warren", so player could dismiss the issue. How ever, the base lore problem is still behind it. That's what you see in DA2 story, when the "immunity" solution is gone. The base lore mage class related problem shows it ugly head.

Never create lore where player class choises has so HUGE affect the lore as how story should go. That's design mistake and it's in lore it self. Of couse the DA2 problem was even bring the mage/templar conflict in story, because it also did bring the mage class lore issue in open.

Absolutely.  Unfortunately Bioware didn't have much choice since David Gaidar had already written this lore mistake into his books.  Bioware was stuck with it.  As long as they stuck with dealing with Wardens, it wasn't an issue......

My hope (such as it is) is that by bringing it to a head, Bioward and their writing team can resolve the issue so the lore is 'fixed'.  However, quite bluntly until it was, either every PC should have been a mage or no PC should have been allowed to be a mage.

-Polaris

[michaftw79]

I chose to play a mage as I wanted to have a hard time in Kirkwall for it and the fact that this never happened was extremely dissappointing. I disagree with the comments that this would stop gameplay, as they did this in BG2 where magic was prohibited. If you started casting, mages would teleport in and fight / imprison you (until you finally got some permit). It's called Immersion and the setting should sync with gameplay, I can't why that if you're fighting in open city areas during the day that an alarm goes up meaning that if you are not done with the fight or have run away Templars start spawning. Alternatively you could have a quest where you are charged with being being an apostate but given immunity as you do a good deed for the viscount / city guard perhaps putting them at odds with the templars. I'm sure they could have built consequences to magic into the game without ruining the gameplay anyhow.

Modifié par michaftw79, 07 mai 2011 - 11:28 .

[In Exile]

Honestly, you could work this into game balance. They nerfed magic, but if you didn't nerf magic and instead made it a big NO unless you paid copious amounts of bribes (or waited until Act II endgame - Act III like the story suggests) then you can have strong magic plus the gain of gameplay/story synchrony (instead of segregation).

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

Honestly, you could work this into game balance. They nerfed magic, but if you didn't nerf magic and instead made it a big NO unless you paid copious amounts of bribes (or waited until Act II endgame - Act III like the story suggests) then you can have strong magic plus the gain of gameplay/story synchrony (instead of segregation).

Very tricky at best and it would require a great deal of dev planning and playtesting to get the balance just right and that's simply something that most gaming publishing companies really can't afford.

-Polaris

[In Exile]

IanPolaris wrote...
Very tricky at best and it would require a great deal of dev planning and playtesting to get the balance just right and that's simply something that most gaming publishing companies really can't afford.

-Polaris

No, you could do it reasonably cheap. You just want a minor change in content for a "feeling" of a concern being addressed.

Just make it night/day with a "crooked" templar that you need to bribe [x] amount for using magic during the day, and make that crooked templar the person you need to bribe to keep the entire order off your back (and add weight to why you need the deep road expedition).

[IanPolaris]

In Exile wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Very tricky at best and it would require a great deal of dev planning and playtesting to get the balance just right and that's simply something that most gaming publishing companies really can't afford.

-Polaris

No, you could do it reasonably cheap. You just want a minor change in content for a "feeling" of a concern being addressed.

Just make it night/day with a "crooked" templar that you need to bribe [x] amount for using magic during the day, and make that crooked templar the person you need to bribe to keep the entire order off your back (and add weight to why you need the deep road expedition).

Ah, the Athkatla (BG2) solution.  I don't think it fully covers the hole,but I'll give you it's be much better than what we have now.

-Polaris

[Viyu]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Blackmarsh wasn't optional.

Plothole's still there because of Nathaniel. More problems and headaches would be present subsequently trying to explain how Anders and Justice met should you have recruited one and not the other. Oh I think there are WAYS to explain it, but until the devs found a way to explain it themselves, it'd be a fanwank, and would not cannonicaly fill the plothole. That's why THEY have to address it. Until that is filled, it's only natural for people to be confused and unhappy.

Though this is only a minor issue, I think it'll also be a headache trying to explain why Varric and Anders had a conversation about the blackmarsh if you never recruited and Anders and did the blackmarsh mission. Partly because it's not the scary blackmarsh anymore at the end of the mission.

Modifié par Viyu, 07 mai 2011 - 07:32 .

[CerealWar]

In BG2, you couldn't cast spells in Athkatla until you got a magic license. I don't remember ever getting one. The first time you cast a spell, the mage ****s would teleport in and give you a warning. The second time, they'd attack you with a few mages. As you continued to cast spells, the battles would get progressively more difficult until two named npcs showed up. Once they were killed, the waves would stop coming and you could cast spells as you pleased.

In DA2, they could have played around with this idea. We're used to enemies dropping out of the sky anyway. Not the license part, but the random magic enforcers popping out of nowhere.

The game's biggest plot hole is that the Chantry spends all these resources keeping these pathetic mages in check when common thugs that have the ability to vanish, drop all debuffs, back stab tanks for 75% of their health, knockback EVERYONE, back flip out of stuns, and pick pocket potions in mid combat, are allowed free reign. You think the chantry would have addressed this problem by now.

[LobselVith8]

Viyu wrote...

Plothole's still there because of Nathaniel.

It's impossible for Anders and Justice to have met if Anders was never recruited by the Warden-Commander and Justice was killed in the Dragonbone Wastes if the Architect was spared, but we also have Leliana alive even if the Warden killed her at the Urn of Sacred Ashes, so it doesn't seem that the writers gave much thought to explaining how Anders knew a dead Justice or how Leliana came back from the dead.

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Anders makes a point in several conversations that blood magic can only be learnt from demons.

Actually, Anders asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accident, or from a demon. Jowan apparently learned it from books on the subject (which is why they were taken from the library) and the Orlesian Warden can learn it from a book in Amaranthine. Learning it from a demon is merely one possible avenue. However, I understand the frustration that if Hawke learns it, it's never once addressed by any of the companions. I thought Merrill would have taught him the specialization, but regardless, Anders continually takes her to task for using blood magic (which I don't agree with him on, and neither do the Wardens) while he ignores the protagonist blood mage.

Issues like blood magic were addressed for The Warden in one disabled scene where Wynne called him out on it but he can dismiss her concerns by saying it's "Grey Warden magic" (that was disabled because it bugged the Landsmeet, and still does if it's enabled with a mod) but since The Warden tells Levi Dryden that the order doesn't prohibit blood magic, it makes more sense than Hawke using blood magic (or any magic) without repercussions from the guard or the templars, even when he performs magic in front of them.

[Beerfish]

CerealWar wrote...


The game's biggest plot hole is that the Chantry spends all these resources keeping these pathetic mages in check when common thugs that have the ability to vanish, drop all debuffs, back stab tanks for 75% of their health, knockback EVERYONE, back flip out of stuns, and pick pocket potions in mid combat, are allowed free reign. You think the chantry would have addressed this problem by now.

That is not the Chantries job they do not rule cities or states outright.  That is up to the Viscount and the city guards.  (Of course the Chantry gets blamed for everything and anything.)

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

That is not the Chantries job they do not rule cities or states outright. That is up to the Viscount and the city guards. (Of course the Chantry gets blamed for everything and anything).

Isn't Meredith ruling Kirkwall for three years as the de facto Viscount? Aren't mages getting whipped, illegally made tranquil, and raped under her administration? Doesn't Grand Cleric Elthina do nothing about her subordinate for seven years, including when the Knight-Commander becomes a dictator over the city-state? I'd say people place blame at the Chantry for a reason.

[Addai]

Sabriana wrote...

To me, it is a plot-hole. The central issue of the whole story is templar/chantry/mages. To allow the player to chose the mage built should have consequences. The story doesn't even try to explain why Hawke gets away with being a mage, while other mages are in danger of being slaughtered on sight when they are simply trying to leave the gallows.
 
.......

As far as I'm concerned, status and riches should not be enough to keep the templars away from Hawke. It didn't work for Isolde, and she had both. Not to mention that Connor was a blood relation to the royal line, nephew to Queen Rowan. That didn't help him much, and Isolde tried to circumvent the law on her own. That didn't work out so well, didn't it?

(husband)


I considered this to be a form of "plot armor".    It's not just that you get rich later on, but that your character is one of the few people who can reliably get things done... allowing other people to go out of their way to look the other way.   Furthermore if they did attack you it would simply be another ambush or large battle.   So the game makes it easy and just doesn't deal with it,; because after all you already are getting attacked regularly while walking down the street etc.


http://tvtropes.org/.../Main/PlotArmor

[Knight Templar_]

Aside from timeline issues there isn't really any plot holes.
I mean people like to go on about you not being locked up for being a mage, but the whole point of the trip into the deep roads was to have money and status to keep the templars at bay. We know people have got by by bribing templars, the issue would be that they don't show this well enough.

[TJPags]

Knight Templar wrote...

Aside from timeline issues there isn't really any plot holes.
I mean people like to go on about you not being locked up for being a mage, but the whole point of the trip into the deep roads was to have money and status to keep the templars at bay. We know people have got by by bribing templars, the issue would be that they don't show this well enough.

Bribing the Templars may be a nice explanation for Acts 2 and 3, but what about Act 1?

If I'm not mistaken, the quest where you save Cullen is in Act 1.  I took 3 mages with me to do that.  No reaction.  Used magic against the Templars when do the Karl quest, too.  Nothing.

It's plot armor, to me, not a plot hole.  Because otherwise, it would be too much trouble to put conditions on magic use, or they'd have to limit magic use somehow.

But it's not just the timeline.  Anders is always a Warden, Anders always somehow meets Justice, he always knows Nate, etc.

[Knight Templar_]

TJPags wrote...


But it's not just the timeline.  Anders is always a Warden, Anders always somehow meets Justice, he always knows Nate, etc.

Right Anders.
Yeah there's a lot of issues around his history.

[Beerfish]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

That is not the Chantries job they do not rule cities or states outright. That is up to the Viscount and the city guards. (Of course the Chantry gets blamed for everything and anything).

Isn't Meredith ruling Kirkwall for three years as the de facto Viscount? Aren't mages getting whipped, illegally made tranquil, and raped under her administration? Doesn't Grand Cleric Elthina do nothing about her subordinate for seven years, including when the Knight-Commander becomes a dictator over the city-state? I'd say people place blame at the Chantry for a reason.

What the heck are you taking about?  Your mage loving delusion spouts forth in all theads and all discussions where it doesn't belong.  The poster whom I made my post about was talking about all the thugs and robbers and such in the city and complained that the chantry wasn't doing anything about it.

Aveline is the head of the city guards, that 's whose job it is to look after the common crime of the cities, not the templars and not the chantry.