181 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

What the heck are you taking about?  Your mage loving delusion spouts forth in all theads and all discussions where it doesn't belong. 

I'm addressing what's presented to us in the storyline. If you're going to take someone to task for addressing the problems with the Chantry, you should expect a response. Meredith is the de facto dictator of Kirkwall for three years, where she has her templars stationed in the Viscount's Keep, preventing the replacement of the prior ruler when she could have been having the templars clean up the city-state.

Beerfish wrote...

The poster whom I made my post about was talking about all the thugs and robbers and such in the city and complained that the chantry wasn't doing anything about it.

You also failed to negect to address that Meredith, the Knight-Commander, was acting as the de facto Viscount of Kirkwall.

Beerfish wrote...

Aveline is the head of the city guards, that 's whose job it is to look after the common crime of the cities, not the templars and not the chantry.

Considering that Meredith tried to have Aveline replaced with a templar and is directly responsible for the chaos that ensues on the streets that directly endangers the civilians of Kirkwall...

[CerealWar]

Beerfish wrote...

CerealWar wrote...


The game's biggest plot hole is that the Chantry spends all these resources keeping these pathetic mages in check when common thugs that have the ability to vanish, drop all debuffs, back stab tanks for 75% of their health, knockback EVERYONE, back flip out of stuns, and pick pocket potions in mid combat, are allowed free reign. You think the chantry would have addressed this problem by now.

That is not the Chantries job they do not rule cities or states outright.  That is up to the Viscount and the city guards.  (Of course the Chantry gets blamed for everything and anything.)

The Chantry formed the templars to counter a perceived mage threat. I would argue that if rogues were always as they are, the Chantry would not have evolved into it's current role, instead taking a more anti-rogue stance early in its history. This is a plot hole.

[Viyu]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Viyu wrote...

Plothole's still there because of Nathaniel.

It's impossible for Anders and Justice to have met if Anders was never recruited by the Warden-Commander and Justice was killed in the Dragonbone Wastes if the Architect was spared, but we also have Leliana alive even if the Warden killed her at the Urn of Sacred Ashes, so it doesn't seem that the writers gave much thought to explaining how Anders knew a dead Justice or how Leliana came back from the dead.

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Anders makes a point in several conversations that blood magic can only be learnt from demons.

Actually, Anders asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accident, or from a demon. Jowan apparently learned it from books on the subject (which is why they were taken from the library) and the Orlesian Warden can learn it from a book in Amaranthine. Learning it from a demon is merely one possible avenue. However, I understand the frustration that if Hawke learns it, it's never once addressed by any of the companions. I thought Merrill would have taught him the specialization, but regardless, Anders continually takes her to task for using blood magic (which I don't agree with him on, and neither do the Wardens) while he ignores the protagonist blood mage.

Issues like blood magic were addressed for The Warden in one disabled scene where Wynne called him out on it but he can dismiss her concerns by saying it's "Grey Warden magic" (that was disabled because it bugged the Landsmeet, and still does if it's enabled with a mod) but since The Warden tells Levi Dryden that the order doesn't prohibit blood magic, it makes more sense than Hawke using blood magic (or any magic) without repercussions from the guard or the templars, even when he performs magic in front of them.

Here's a question: Why did Wesley get on Bethany for being a mage but suddenly no one notices the magic used when you're trying to get into Kirkwall? The writers have the capacity to let gameplay and storyline intermingle, but it just seems too painfully convienient when they seem to forget about it.

Modifié par Viyu, 08 mai 2011 - 11:38 .

[Sabriana]

My personal first indication that something wasn't right was when Wesley said "Apostate..[...]" and not "Apostates..[...]" seemingly only addressing Bethany and ignoring her sister's (Hawke) mage status.

[Viyu]

@Sabriana

"...." ;

You do have a point. Though perhaps he was focusing on Bethany because she seems more vulnerable than Hawke. But at least they didn't ignore the issue entirely. But you mean to tell me that a place swarming with Templars with no more room for refugees WOULDN'T take notice? Now look, I could see if they let them go because they saved the guards lives, but that's better than acting like it matters one minute and not the next....

Modifié par Viyu, 08 mai 2011 - 11:49 .

[Sabriana]

Viyu wrote...

@Sabriana

"...." ;

You do have a point. Though perhaps he was focusing on Bethany because she seems more vulnerable than Hawke. But at least they didn't ignore the issue entirely. But you mean to tell me that a place swarming with Templars with no more room for refugees WOULDN'T take notice? Now look, I could see if they let them go because they saved the guards lives, but that's better than acting like it matters one minute and not the next....

Oh, I'm in full agreement with you. I've lamented and whined about that in numerous threads. Not only does a ******-poor, unharrowed, illegal refugee mage fling spells around with reckless abandon in broad daylight in front of many guards, but she does it in the Gallows.

I don't buy the "she helped the guards, so they're greatful". People talk. People can be bribed. The Gallows is the Templar HQ in the Templar bastion of Thedas.

[Viyu]

Sabriana wrote...

Viyu wrote...

@Sabriana

"...." ;

You do have a point. Though perhaps he was focusing on Bethany because she seems more vulnerable than Hawke. But at least they didn't ignore the issue entirely. But you mean to tell me that a place swarming with Templars with no more room for refugees WOULDN'T take notice? Now look, I could see if they let them go because they saved the guards lives, but that's better than acting like it matters one minute and not the next....

Oh, I'm in full agreement with you. I've lamented and whined about that in numerous threads. Not only does a ******-poor, unharrowed, illegal refugee mage fling spells around with reckless abandon in broad daylight in front of many guards, but she does it in the Gallows.

I don't buy the "she helped the guards, so they're greatful". People talk. People can be bribed. The Gallows is the Templar HQ in the Templar bastion of Thedas.

My problem is that they never acknowledged Hawke or Bethany was a mage, when they should've done that and then decide to look the other way for saving their lives, or whatever other plausible reason. It seems like weak storytelling to me for them to act utterly stupid about it like that didn't just happen. That would've been an utterly easy plothole to fill, and makes me rather worried about the more complicated ones they didn't think through.

[TJPags]

Viyu wrote...

Here's a question: Why did Wesley get on Bethany for being a mage but suddenly no one notices the magic used when you're trying to get into Kirkwall? The writers have the capacity to let gameplay and storyline intermingle, but it just seems too painfully convienient when they seem to forget about it.

"Let's set our new game in a place where mages are treated harshly, and Templars have all the power!!"

"What if a player decides they want to play a mage?"

"Why would that be a problem?"

"Well, shouldn't the character be arrested as an apostate?"

"What?  Of course not!!  If they don't care, we don't care!!  Nobody will notice"

[Viyu]

TJPags wrote...

Viyu wrote...

Here's a question: Why did Wesley get on Bethany for being a mage but suddenly no one notices the magic used when you're trying to get into Kirkwall? The writers have the capacity to let gameplay and storyline intermingle, but it just seems too painfully convienient when they seem to forget about it.

"Let's set our new game in a place where mages are treated harshly, and Templars have all the power!!"

"What if a player decides they want to play a mage?"

"Why would that be a problem?"

"Well, shouldn't the character be arrested as an apostate?"

"What?  Of course not!!  If they don't care, we don't care!!  Nobody will notice"

It should've been a red flag that they'd do something like this when they said "we'll look the other way" when the subject came up about importing a dead warden in Awakening, instead of coming up with an in-story reason why the Warden survived despite slaying the Arch demon without Morrigan's ritual.

[blauterranit]

Ok, let's make it easy... Guardmen are "policemen" of free civil population of Kirkwall and Templars are "military police" of potential dangerous magic population. They are an Army with HQ at Gallows.

When Hawke's family try to enter in Kirkwall, the men who stop them are GUARD under Viscount command, not Templars (as Wesley was....) under Knight-commander orders. And in the first you see that internal relation between both forces doen't be... quite friendly.
Maybe I've wrotte it wrong again...

[Viyu]

blauterranit wrote...

Ok, let's make it easy... Guardmen are "policemen" of free civil population of Kirkwall and Templars are "military police" of potential dangerous magic population. They are an Army with HQ at Gallows.

When Hawke's family try to enter in Kirkwall, the men who stop them are GUARD under Viscount command, not Templars (as Wesley was....) under Knight-commander orders. And in the first you see that internal relation between both forces doen't be... quite friendly.
Maybe I've wrotte it wrong again...

I still don't see it that way, since the guards said that Knight Commander Meredith is breathing down their necks before you talk to Ewald.

[Foolsfolly]

Viyu wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Viyu wrote...

Here's a question: Why did Wesley get on Bethany for being a mage but suddenly no one notices the magic used when you're trying to get into Kirkwall? The writers have the capacity to let gameplay and storyline intermingle, but it just seems too painfully convienient when they seem to forget about it.

"Let's set our new game in a place where mages are treated harshly, and Templars have all the power!!"

"What if a player decides they want to play a mage?"

"Why would that be a problem?"

"Well, shouldn't the character be arrested as an apostate?"

"What?  Of course not!!  If they don't care, we don't care!!  Nobody will notice"

It should've been a red flag that they'd do something like this when they said "we'll look the other way" when the subject came up about importing a dead warden in Awakening, instead of coming up with an in-story reason why the Warden survived despite slaying the Arch demon without Morrigan's ritual.

Would it have been so freaking hard to have the choices in Origins import for a dead Warden and then have the player create a new Warden-Commander?

I mean, that doesn't seem so difficult.

[blauterranit]

That is it. Knight-commander Meredith is taking more power that her status giver her. She is intruding in guard's affairs beeing a Templar, creating a tense relation between bothoof forces. Viscount is not respected at all by anyone: Arishok says it, Mother Petrice says it, Ser Cullen says it, current people say it too (if you click over some of them). Even corruption grews up under his mandate.. see Jeven, captain of guardmen when Hawke family arrive to Kirkwall.

Meredith wish, yearn for power, for controlling all the city because she beleive she's the one who can do it perfectly right.
Anyway, guardmen don't worry about apostate mages cause it's a Templar's problem, and Templars begin becoming confused by their knight-commander and her orders. And consecuently, mage have more opportunity for run away and created the chaos... in the middle: Hawke.
I have understanding this way... a great puzzel where personalities of each character push to the final confrontation.

[Viyu]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Viyu wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Viyu wrote...

Here's a question: Why did Wesley get on Bethany for being a mage but suddenly no one notices the magic used when you're trying to get into Kirkwall? The writers have the capacity to let gameplay and storyline intermingle, but it just seems too painfully convienient when they seem to forget about it.

"Let's set our new game in a place where mages are treated harshly, and Templars have all the power!!"

"What if a player decides they want to play a mage?"

"Why would that be a problem?"

"Well, shouldn't the character be arrested as an apostate?"

"What?  Of course not!!  If they don't care, we don't care!!  Nobody will notice"

It should've been a red flag that they'd do something like this when they said "we'll look the other way" when the subject came up about importing a dead warden in Awakening, instead of coming up with an in-story reason why the Warden survived despite slaying the Arch demon without Morrigan's ritual.

Would it have been so freaking hard to have the choices in Origins import for a dead Warden and then have the player create a new Warden-Commander?

I mean, that doesn't seem so difficult.

Or they could've explained that someone used a necromancy spell, or interviened just before the Archdemon dies to pevent the Warden's death. To raise their hands up and ignore it altogether is simply beyond me.

[In Exile]

Sabriana wrote...

My personal first indication that something wasn't right was when Wesley said "Apostate..[...]" and not "Apostates..[...]" seemingly only addressing Bethany and ignoring her sister's (Hawke) mage status.

I thought he was speaking in general. As in, ''Such a thing as an apostate is always dangerous'' versus ''This one apostate is dangerous''. When he mets your group he says (at least with a mage Hawke) ''Apostates''.

[In Exile]

Viyu wrote...
Or they could've explained that someone used a necromancy spell, or interviened just before the Archdemon dies to pevent the Warden's death. To raise their hands up and ignore it altogether is simply beyond me.

There was no in-story reason for the Warden to live. The only way out was that Alistair or Loghain died, or otherwise you had the DR.

The whole point is that the archdemon doesn't die without a soul to counterbalance it.

[Abispa]

The mage storyline is the most painful for me to play since the MANY face-palm moments tear me right out of the story. Some cheap, but more acceptable ways to get around Hawke and/or Bethany being a mage in Kirkwall would be to have the guards or Templars who see them use their powers 1) state they are obligated to protect the heroes that saved them, 2) they are sympathetic to mages and disapprove of Meredith's heavy handed tactics, 3) the Grand Cleric herself grants the Hawkes some special status, 4) they are bribed by the Hawkes (costs gold each time caught), 5) they don't care about the Hawkes being mages as much as they want to screw over Meredith and/or the Grand Cleric, or 6) Bioware gave us an option to "turn off" showy magic powers when fighting in front of witnesses (forcing the Hawkes to use martial staff combat to avoid detection).

EDIT: Maybe Bioware could give the mages a new skill tree for mages to develop their dagger, staff or unarmed combat prowess to use when magic would be problematic.

Modifié par Abispa, 08 mai 2011 - 11:28 .

[Viyu]

Abispa wrote...

The mage storyline is the most painful for me to play since the MANY face-palm moments tear me right out of the story. Some cheap, but more acceptable ways to get around Hawke and/or Bethany being a mage in Kirkwall would be to have the guards or Templars who see them use their powers 1) state they are obligated to protect the heroes that saved them, 2) they are sympathetic to mages and disapprove of Meredith's heavy handed tactics, 3) the Grand Cleric herself grants the Hawkes some special status, 4) they are bribed by the Hawkes (costs gold each time caught), 5) they don't care about the Hawkes being mages as much as they want to screw over Meredith and/or the Grand Cleric, or 6) Bioware gave us an option to "turn off" showy magic powers when fighting in front of witnesses (forcing the Hawkes to use martial staff combat to avoid detection).

EDIT: Maybe Bioware could give the mages a new skill tree for mages to develop their dagger, staff or unarmed combat prowess to use when magic would be problematic.

Mages were twice as fast in combat compared to Warriors but more especially rouges and had no drawbacks. Low HP? Pleaaase. If you're a far ranged fighter it usually never becomes a serious issue. At least trying not to be detected would be a serious drawback. Even Fable II, as horrid a game that had the guards fined the hero for using their powers in public.

[Viyu]

blauterranit wrote...

That is it. Knight-commander Meredith is taking more power that her status giver her. She is intruding in guard's affairs beeing a Templar, creating a tense relation between bothoof forces. Viscount is not respected at all by anyone: Arishok says it, Mother Petrice says it, Ser Cullen says it, current people say it too (if you click over some of them). Even corruption grews up under his mandate.. see Jeven, captain of guardmen when Hawke family arrive to Kirkwall.

Meredith wish, yearn for power, for controlling all the city because she beleive she's the one who can do it perfectly right.
Anyway, guardmen don't worry about apostate mages cause it's a Templar's problem, and Templars begin becoming confused by their knight-commander and her orders. And consecuently, mage have more opportunity for run away and created the chaos... in the middle: Hawke.
I have understanding this way... a great puzzel where personalities of each character push to the final confrontation.

But the guards answer to Meredith, they actually come out and say it before you speak to Ewald. I believe the person who says it goes by the name Wright. So why would they at least not notice it and give a second thought to the security of their job positions should any witnesses notice?

[Big I]

Knight Templar wrote...

Aside from timeline issues there isn't really any plot holes.
I mean people like to go on about you not being locked up for being a mage, but the whole point of the trip into the deep roads was to have money and status to keep the templars at bay. We know people have got by by bribing templars, the issue would be that they don't show this well enough.

Then why isn't Hawke able to bribe the templars to keep Bethany out of the Circle?

[Viyu]

Probably because it'd have been BEYOND easy to bribe them with all the loot you get in the deep roads, and the writers wanted her taken away to the circle once you got back. It would have been a huge loophole in their plans.

[Abispa]

Bethany turns herself into the Templars. In several conversations with Hawke she pretty much says that she feels responsible for the family having a rough life and her mother never smiling. And early on in the game Bethany and Aveline have a dialog where Bethany has been using her to get information on the Circle and seemed conflicted about whether or not she should continue to be an apostate. Constantly being forced to pay bribes would probably weigh on her conscience even more, since she's one of the few mages in DA2 to actually HAVE a conscience.

[Abispa]

Viyu wrote...

Abispa wrote...

The mage storyline is the most painful for me to play since the MANY face-palm moments tear me right out of the story. Some cheap, but more acceptable ways to get around Hawke and/or Bethany being a mage in Kirkwall would be to have the guards or Templars who see them use their powers 1) state they are obligated to protect the heroes that saved them, 2) they are sympathetic to mages and disapprove of Meredith's heavy handed tactics, 3) the Grand Cleric herself grants the Hawkes some special status, 4) they are bribed by the Hawkes (costs gold each time caught), 5) they don't care about the Hawkes being mages as much as they want to screw over Meredith and/or the Grand Cleric, or 6) Bioware gave us an option to "turn off" showy magic powers when fighting in front of witnesses (forcing the Hawkes to use martial staff combat to avoid detection).

EDIT: Maybe Bioware could give the mages a new skill tree for mages to develop their dagger, staff or unarmed combat prowess to use when magic would be problematic.

Mages were twice as fast in combat compared to Warriors but more especially rouges and had no drawbacks. Low HP? Pleaaase. If you're a far ranged fighter it usually never becomes a serious issue. At least trying not to be detected would be a serious drawback. Even Fable II, as horrid a game that had the guards fined the hero for using their powers in public.

In my mind a mage should be a poor-to-barely-okay melee fighter AND would still be able to use her non-showy powers, like healing, haste and heroic aura. The only problem would be the Templars, who SHOULD be able to detect such things, but then again they're supposed to be able to detect mages by close proximatey even if they aren't using magic.

[LobselVith8]

Abispa wrote...

Bethany turns herself into the Templars. In several conversations with Hawke she pretty much says that she feels responsible for the family having a rough life and her mother never smiling. And early on in the game Bethany and Aveline have a dialog where Bethany has been using her to get information on the Circle and seemed conflicted about whether or not she should continue to be an apostate. Constantly being forced to pay bribes would probably weigh on her conscience even more, since she's one of the few mages in DA2 to actually HAVE a conscience.

Bethany asks Hawke not to fight Cullen if the protagonist provides an aggresive response to the Knight-Captain, but she's upset with Hawke because she's a Circle mage and he's free in Act II.