181 réponses à ce sujet

[blauterranit]

Viyu wrote...

blauterranit wrote...

That is it. Knight-commander Meredith is taking more power that her status giver her. She is intruding in guard's affairs beeing a Templar, creating a tense relation between bothoof forces. Viscount is not respected at all by anyone: Arishok says it, Mother Petrice says it, Ser Cullen says it, current people say it too (if you click over some of them). Even corruption grews up under his mandate.. see Jeven, captain of guardmen when Hawke family arrive to Kirkwall.

Meredith wish, yearn for power, for controlling all the city because she beleive she's the one who can do it perfectly right.
Anyway, guardmen don't worry about apostate mages cause it's a Templar's problem, and Templars begin becoming confused by their knight-commander and her orders. And consecuently, mage have more opportunity for run away and created the chaos... in the middle: Hawke.
I have understanding this way... a great puzzel where personalities of each character push to the final confrontation.

But the guards answer to Meredith, they actually come out and say it before you speak to Ewald. I believe the person who says it goes by the name Wright. So why would they at least not notice it and give a second thought to the security of their job positions should any witnesses notice?

This one is just a guard trying to control a huge concentration of exhausted, hungry, desesparated refugees, accumulating such a mass of people at the gate of the city that, really would they care about one possible apostate?? They living a crisis, in that situation who cares about an outlaw mage?

Yes, he say that Meredith command, but the policeman on the corner of your city surely answer you the same naming your Army General, anyway he would no care for an issolate suspicious desrter-outlaw among thousands refugees, that's for army forces!!!! For guard, at the moment, only urgency is control refugees, no more. As any city in any time in such extreme circunstances!

[Sabriana]

In Exile wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

My personal first indication that something wasn't right was when Wesley said "Apostate..[...]" and not "Apostates..[...]" seemingly only addressing Bethany and ignoring her sister's (Hawke) mage status.

I thought he was speaking in general. As in, ''Such a thing as an apostate is always dangerous'' versus ''This one apostate is dangerous''. When he mets your group he says (at least with a mage Hawke) ''Apostates''.

With all due respect, but no he does not. I reloaded twice to check if I heard that right, and every time he said "Apostate..." stepping threateningly toward Bethany, using the singular not the plural. Unless my game is glitched, but I read other posters saying the same thing.

The guards have no reason to conceal Hawke's mage status. Whatever for? It's a criminal offense in Andrastian countries to conceal an illegal mage. There were many guards involved fighting off the deserters. I don't believe they would all agree to a woman/man to conceal a mage who just flung spells around in the Gallows of all places.

During the Fenris recruitment, Aveline mentions that the guards also step in when encountering illegal mages. Granted, she shows more leniency and states "bad" mages, but it does indicate that the guards do their job and stop criminal activity. An illegal mage is simply that: illegal. As in not legal.

It makes little sense that Ewald would committ a crime in Templar Haven out of gratitude, but still refuses to let Hawke and company enter Kirkwall.

[Viyu]

blauterranit wrote...

Viyu wrote...

blauterranit wrote...

That is it. Knight-commander Meredith is taking more power that her status giver her. She is intruding in guard's affairs beeing a Templar, creating a tense relation between bothoof forces. Viscount is not respected at all by anyone: Arishok says it, Mother Petrice says it, Ser Cullen says it, current people say it too (if you click over some of them). Even corruption grews up under his mandate.. see Jeven, captain of guardmen when Hawke family arrive to Kirkwall.

Meredith wish, yearn for power, for controlling all the city because she beleive she's the one who can do it perfectly right.
Anyway, guardmen don't worry about apostate mages cause it's a Templar's problem, and Templars begin becoming confused by their knight-commander and her orders. And consecuently, mage have more opportunity for run away and created the chaos... in the middle: Hawke.
I have understanding this way... a great puzzel where personalities of each character push to the final confrontation.

But the guards answer to Meredith, they actually come out and say it before you speak to Ewald. I believe the person who says it goes by the name Wright. So why would they at least not notice it and give a second thought to the security of their job positions should any witnesses notice?

This one is just a guard trying to control a huge concentration of exhausted, hungry, desesparated refugees, accumulating such a mass of people at the gate of the city that, really would they care about one possible apostate?? They living a crisis, in that situation who cares about an outlaw mage?

Someone who cares about his job and life would. If Meredith found out about what they did they would've been hung, as Anders states helping apostates is a hangable offense. These guards answer directly to Meredith. Even Aveline states that she's looking the other way rearding Anders, because her DUTY is to turn him in. And even though they are all refugees, the guard still managed a zero tolerance policy up until that point, so yes it does matter. And just letting in an apostate when they have no room? Not buying it, at all. My issue is that even if it was ONE outlaw mage you would think they'd have acknowledged it at least, and THEN decide to let them go.

Modifié par Viyu, 09 mai 2011 - 11:05 .

[blauterranit]

NO, he make his job: no one refugee can enter in Kirkwall whitout permission. He's not a templar, so he is not forced to take care about apostate. In fact, he and his men show in the first confrontation that he need the help of a foreign (Hawke) to stop those who wants enter by using force!!! Poor guard, he's not a hero, In his place I'd think to save my bloody ass and let this freindly "apostate" to templar's hands (problem by magic = problem for templars) , and going controlling provocative refugees with... normal weapons.

Duty in chaos is hard to handle, especially when you think that a foreing commander can dare order to another forces which are not its responsability... And the truth is that Aveline is not right as she wants to seem, or she'd given Hawke mage (Bethany or Champion) , Anders and Merril to Templar... and she did not... freindship? hypocrisy? cowardice? choose it! Maybe she is obliged to bring some denounced apostates to Templars cause the damned Meredith has made a military coup after Viscount dead, and so saving her freinds from a inevitable tranquility ritual or death!
Real as life :-) accomplishment of duty at 100% is not real.. only a dream for dreamers... or naive people.
PD
Hawke always ask to Anders and Merril if templars have seen them, any reference about guardmen, why? Oh! maybe mages are only matter of Templars and Chantry, and Circle? Yes!

[Sabriana]

An illegal mage is a not legal mage. It is a criminal offense to conceal a criminal. The guards act against "bad" mages as per Aveline. Aveline risks her neck for Hawke or Bethany. That was also very poorly done, storywise. However, she seems to risk her neck/job frequently for her buddies. She shifts the guards around and protects Fenris, for example.

At the time of the incident Aveline is not yet a guard, btw. Later on she is even the Captain of the Guard. An explanation for her behavior could be grounded in friendship and loyalty, just as as the behavior of Ser Maurevar Carver was.

After the incident in the Gallows, Ewald doesn't even let Hawke and co into the city out of gratitude. Why on earth would he risk his job or even his neck for someone he's just met?

A simple citizen can end up in dire circumstances for aiding and abetting an illegal mage. What do you think would happen to an officer of the law, namely a city guard, no matter what rank.

[Viyu]

You take a crack at it, I've tried telling blauterranit several times. Look, if Aveline, a member of the guard tells Anders that she's doing him a favor by looking the other way, then obviously the Guard has orders to arrest apostates just as much as the chantry. Mages that are not locked up in the circle are considered apostates: i.e illegal mages.

Modifié par Viyu, 09 mai 2011 - 09:09 .

[Abispa]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Abispa wrote...

Bethany turns herself into the Templars. In several conversations with Hawke she pretty much says that she feels responsible for the family having a rough life and her mother never smiling. And early on in the game Bethany and Aveline have a dialog where Bethany has been using her to get information on the Circle and seemed conflicted about whether or not she should continue to be an apostate. Constantly being forced to pay bribes would probably weigh on her conscience even more, since she's one of the few mages in DA2 to actually HAVE a conscience.

Bethany asks Hawke not to fight Cullen if the protagonist provides an aggresive response to the Knight-Captain, but she's upset with Hawke because she's a Circle mage and he's free in Act II.

In my play-through she pretty much tells me that her joining the Circle is for the best.

[LobselVith8]

Abispa wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Abispa wrote...

Bethany turns herself into the Templars. In several conversations with Hawke she pretty much says that she feels responsible for the family having a rough life and her mother never smiling. And early on in the game Bethany and Aveline have a dialog where Bethany has been using her to get information on the Circle and seemed conflicted about whether or not she should continue to be an apostate. Constantly being forced to pay bribes would probably weigh on her conscience even more, since she's one of the few mages in DA2 to actually HAVE a conscience.

Bethany asks Hawke not to fight Cullen if the protagonist provides an aggresive response to the Knight-Captain, but she's upset with Hawke because she's a Circle mage and he's free in Act II.

In my play-through she pretty much tells me that her joining the Circle is for the best.

The Friendship and Rivalry bars don't alter dialogue with the siblings. Bethany is upset with Hawke in Act II since she's a Circle mage and Hawke is free, and in Act III Bethany admits she didn't know how free she was until she was imprisoned in the Gallows. She says her time as a Circle mage showed her that the Maker doesn't want the mages to be locked up.

[Abispa]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Abispa wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Abispa wrote...

Bethany turns herself into the Templars. In several conversations with Hawke she pretty much says that she feels responsible for the family having a rough life and her mother never smiling. And early on in the game Bethany and Aveline have a dialog where Bethany has been using her to get information on the Circle and seemed conflicted about whether or not she should continue to be an apostate. Constantly being forced to pay bribes would probably weigh on her conscience even more, since she's one of the few mages in DA2 to actually HAVE a conscience.

Bethany asks Hawke not to fight Cullen if the protagonist provides an aggresive response to the Knight-Captain, but she's upset with Hawke because she's a Circle mage and he's free in Act II.

In my play-through she pretty much tells me that her joining the Circle is for the best.

The Friendship and Rivalry bars don't alter dialogue with the siblings. Bethany is upset with Hawke in Act II since she's a Circle mage and Hawke is free, and in Act III Bethany admits she didn't know how free she was until she was imprisoned in the Gallows. She says her time as a Circle mage showed her that the Maker doesn't want the mages to be locked up.

Sorry, but from the way I read your original post, I thought you were saying that Bethany was mad at Hawke at the time she turned herself in. Yes, I know she would be unhappy in the Gallows AFTER being there for three years, but early in the game she was conflicted about whether or not it would be for the best and THAT was what I was originally commenting on.

[blauterranit]

Viyu wrote...

You take a crack at it, I've tried telling blauterranit several times. Look, if Aveline, a member of the guard tells Anders that she's doing him a favor by looking the other way, then obviously the Guard has orders to arrest apostates just as much as the chantry. Mages that are not locked up in the circle are considered apostates: i.e illegal mages.

Ok, I give up, I leave, I drop out, I surrender. All is white or black. Hoppefully life would so easy and the environment never affects us. And less all over 6 years of ours lives!!

And, yes, After playing DA for some months I still don't know what makes the difference between an apostate (Hawke (you or Bethany), Anders or Merril) and a mage of the circle.... Thanks for illuminating my ignorance after so many posts.

Maybe I am to narrow-minded for this game and it's a plot. By the way,,, where is it explaining that guards have order to arrest apostates for beeing just apostates? Why mages are affraid of Templars and not of guards? Maybe someone from Bioware could answer me ;-) 

PS
Bethany BEFORE joing the circle, of course... while Aveline was a simple guard... That's duty!.. or not

[Abispa]

@ blauterranit -- I always figured that a guard is SUPPOSED to at least report apostates to Templars and that it was up to the guard's discretion whether or not s/he would try to apprehend one without Templar back up (since guards don't have the Tempars' defenses against magic). One of the reasons I think that the guards are even more inept at tracking mages than the Templars is that early in the game they are corrupt and later in the game (under Aveline) there's a heated rivalry between the two groups.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Abispa wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Abispa wrote...

Bethany turns herself into the Templars. In several conversations with Hawke she pretty much says that she feels responsible for the family having a rough life and her mother never smiling. And early on in the game Bethany and Aveline have a dialog where Bethany has been using her to get information on the Circle and seemed conflicted about whether or not she should continue to be an apostate. Constantly being forced to pay bribes would probably weigh on her conscience even more, since she's one of the few mages in DA2 to actually HAVE a conscience.

Bethany asks Hawke not to fight Cullen if the protagonist provides an aggresive response to the Knight-Captain, but she's upset with Hawke because she's a Circle mage and he's free in Act II.

In my play-through she pretty much tells me that her joining the Circle is for the best.

The Friendship and Rivalry bars don't alter dialogue with the siblings. Bethany is upset with Hawke in Act II since she's a Circle mage and Hawke is free, and in Act III Bethany admits she didn't know how free she was until she was imprisoned in the Gallows. She says her time as a Circle mage showed her that the Maker doesn't want the mages to be locked up.

When do we see Bethany in Act 2?

[Abispa]

@ TJPags -- I believe LobselVith8 is referring to a letter that Bethany may have sent in Act II.

[TJPags]

Abispa wrote...

@ TJPags -- I believe LobselVith8 is referring to a letter that Bethany may have sent in Act II.

That's the only interaction I recall.  And I don't think there was any animosity in that letter . .  .she seemed very happy there, overall - certainly didn't seem mad at Hawke . . .

[LobselVith8]

Hey, TJPags. Bethany is with Orsino when the Qunari attack Kirkwall at the end of Act II, remember? I was surprised she seemed hostile to Hawke since she does tell him to back down from murdering Cullen at the end of Act I.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hey, TJPags. Bethany is with Orsino when the Qunari attack Kirkwall at the end of Act II, remember? I was surprised she seemed hostile to Hawke since she does tell him to back down from murdering Cullen at the end of Act I.

Oh, I'd forgotten that.

Okay, we do see her.

But now I don't remember how she acts . . .off to youtube to find it . . .I'll be back.

[blauterranit]

Abispa wrote...

@ blauterranit -- I always figured that a guard is SUPPOSED to at least report apostates to Templars and that it was up to the guard's discretion whether or not s/he would try to apprehend one without Templar back up (since guards don't have the Tempars' defenses against magic). One of the reasons I think that the guards are even more inept at tracking mages than the Templars is that early in the game they are corrupt and later in the game (under Aveline) there's a heated rivalry between the two groups.

taking as an analogy with military and police, a police officer is not required to arrest a deserter from the army, which is the treatment to the Mages by the Templars. Innocent prisoners declared deserters if they flee cause their Maker told it so (religion , con la iglesia hemos topado!).

For the world that Bioware present to  us, magic and its environment is the exclusive competence of the Templars, the Chantry and the Circle. If Her Grace doen't dare to opt for one or other, why should interfere the Viscount Guards? I think the crack is on your vison of little details that deprive you see the global world of DA. Justa question, did youever read all books, notes, letters and codex of items in the game? History of Kirkwall, study of the fifth blide, History of The Guard of Kirkawll etc..  Well the remember that magic is an abomintion after Maker words cause some of follower choosed adored another God.  The lover of The Maker, Andraste, unfaithfull to her husband defend Him in a epical war. The magic and mages where declared a diabolical curse, and thousands years after, even those mages who don't believe in he Maker are locked in a prison, called The Circle. ok till now?

Guards of Kirkwall are in its foundation created to facing invasors, Templars included. and keep Kirkwall independence. Anyway, any guardmen has forced to serve Templars. Meredith force them.

Don't confuse Duty with Sense of Justice, or history of Kirkwall and tis poulation with imposition of Thedas, or inquisition Templar. Be water and try to understand Kirkwall and its Guards to be able to undersatnd the whole history.

Worser is the whole plot of the years when Hawke's family lived in a very small, small village named Lothering (10 years is told us) and never see a Sister of Chantry that the Hero of Ferelden met in a tavern in a moment, not hidden!! Named it Leliana!

[blauterranit]

ouch! this is suddently so quiet.....

[Nordic Warlord]

Well, I guess you were right all the way, blauterranit. The guards in Kirkwall are corrupt so it's naive to expect they will go by the book and report every possible apostate to the templars. It is not their problem. Crowd control is far more important at that moment.

[Chugster]

being constantly attacked by templars in every fight would make playing as a mage or with one very annoying, very quickly...not sure how having to dodge templars throughout the game would be any fun

[helloween7]

Chugster wrote...

being constantly attacked by templars in every fight would make playing as a mage or with one very annoying, very quickly...not sure how having to dodge templars throughout the game would be any fun

Yet it's okay if those attacking you are bandits? There are droves of those in Kirkwall (and the Guard doesn't do squat about them either). Having the Templars be the ones to attack you a couple of times wouldn't hurt, IMO.

However, I'd rather have implemented a quest right after setting foot in the Gallows (or while in the service of the criminal band of choice) to address this issue, like striking a deal with the Carta, or bribing some key templars... anything that would explain (however thinly) Hawke's immunity to Templar scrutiny in Acts I and II.

Modifié par helloween7, 12 mai 2011 - 10:42 .

[Viyu]

In my opinion, gamers by and large don't get to whine about how easy the game is and then whine about Templars fighting.

[0x30A88]

Mostly that the game breaks with the lore on occaiton and you could practice blood magic in front of a templar's nose. Teleportation is described as unfeasable with DA magic, yet it is done in DA2.

[HSHAW]

Gisle Aune wrote...

Mostly that the game breaks with the lore on occaiton and you could practice blood magic in front of a templar's nose. Teleportation is described as unfeasable with DA magic, yet it is done in DA2.

Gaider explained this as enemy mages using an illusion to make themselves appear invisible and running across the room (with a really fast running speed for gameplay's sake).

Also, didn't Morrigan teleport beyond the Fade in Witch Hunt?

[Viyu]

This is poor storytelling. You can explain it, but the story itself isn't getting the message to the viewer. Again, what if people don't bother to come to the website or these boards? The problem is that the story-- the actual narrative never makes that actual connection within the tale itself, so his explanation feels more like--and forgive my lack of a better word-- a fanwank with benefits. "Explaining" things off screen is good for covering non-essential story elements, like Dumbledore being gay in Harry Potter. But not something that should've characterized the seriousness of the witch hunt in DA2.

But more importantly, I find this logic problematic. There are many specializations that YOU can use, and clearly you are not invisible, as enemies can see you, even if you fight in front of templars or city guards no less. More importantly, you can also manipulate enemies in grotesque fashion that would warrant eyebrows. And naturally since those enemies are visible since you and your party can see them, I find this lacking in believability.

Modifié par Viyu, 13 mai 2011 - 10:01 .