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[blauterranit]

Breifing, Act I. Templars who knows Hawke magic status:
Ser Cullen (you saved his life, so he can show you mercy as the Ferelden Templar Ser Carver showed to Hawke's father, and he needs your help for findding Keran and discover the mistery of demons possession of some recluts) wise duty vs unwavering duty.
Reclut Keran (you saved his life and worries about sister life, Macha, so he show you absoluty thanfull)
Ser Trash (he tink that mage are people too and appreciatte the further help you could give him)

All three of them knows terror of abominations and are smart enough to recognize reall help source (Hawke).

Act II

Noble status of Amell family in Kirkwall story help its members enjoy some free movment. Nobility and its nobles protect them. Launcet Family is an Orlaisian inmigrant, a second class nobles in Kirkwall.

Power of knight-commander Meredith:

She led the confrontation against Viscount Threnhold and his son, Perrin. Once defeated them, she put on their place a new viscount: Dumar, who, as the first guard at the enter of Kirkwall explain, he DO anything that Meredith ask for, even being a Templar Knight-commander. Captain Edwal doesn't care about magic demostration because Hawke SAVE him (Hawke the great saviour :-)) At that moment, guards only are there for "to ensure the refugees do not jump the walls", they are doing this job for several months. And in his inside, no guard wants to obey a Fanatic Templar, and they do the minimum to go ahead in their rutinary lives. That's the story Bioware give us, maybe we don't like some actitude of some guards or templars or anyone, but they are quite consistent with the city history. if you konw it...

And, all over that, Meredith is a traumatized vindictive woman who lost her family in her sister's hands... Anders kill a lot of innocents with his one act, but Meredith killed a lot of innocent people (families and freinds of mages) for several, several years... on own personal revenge, taking avantage that Kirkwall was destroid in absolut chaos for war....

After all, Kirkwall was a Tevinter Imperium city, with magic deeply rooted, and then suddendly came the qunary followed by The Chantry.... What a weak country identity thet have!!!

[Viyu]

blauterranit wrote...

Abispa wrote...

@ blauterranit -- I always figured that a guard is SUPPOSED to at least report apostates to Templars and that it was up to the guard's discretion whether or not s/he would try to apprehend one without Templar back up (since guards don't have the Tempars' defenses against magic). One of the reasons I think that the guards are even more inept at tracking mages than the Templars is that early in the game they are corrupt and later in the game (under Aveline) there's a heated rivalry between the two groups.

taking as an analogy with military and police, a police officer is not required to arrest a deserter from the army, which is the treatment to the Mages by the Templars. Innocent prisoners declared deserters if they flee cause their Maker told it so (religion , con la iglesia hemos topado!).

For the world that Bioware present to  us, magic and its environment is the exclusive competence of the Templars, the Chantry and the Circle. If Her Grace doen't dare to opt for one or other, why should interfere the Viscount Guards? I think the crack is on your vison of little details that deprive you see the global world of DA. Justa question, did youever read all books, notes, letters and codex of items in the game? History of Kirkwall, study of the fifth blide, History of The Guard of Kirkawll etc..  Well the remember that magic is an abomintion after Maker words cause some of follower choosed adored another God.  The lover of The Maker, Andraste, unfaithfull to her husband defend Him in a epical war. The magic and mages where declared a diabolical curse, and thousands years after, even those mages who don't believe in he Maker are locked in a prison, called The Circle. ok till now?

Guards of Kirkwall are in its foundation created to facing invasors, Templars included. and keep Kirkwall independence. Anyway, any guardmen has forced to serve Templars. Meredith force them.

Don't confuse Duty with Sense of Justice, or history of Kirkwall and tis poulation with imposition of Thedas, or inquisition Templar. Be water and try to understand Kirkwall and its Guards to be able to undersatnd the whole history.

Worser is the whole plot of the years when Hawke's family lived in a very small, small village named Lothering (10 years is told us) and never see a Sister of Chantry that the Hero of Ferelden met in a tavern in a moment, not hidden!! Named it Leliana!

If they are facing overcrowding, the LAST thing they should reasonably do is accept more people in the city, and most particularly apostates, when there are a ton of witnesses who could, and out of bitneress probably WOULD tell Meredith. Thrask was understandable, he was being resourceful on the downlow, but hardly anyone else. I keep saying this, but why don't these guards and templars place more value on their own lives? Should they even think of helping mages, why don't any of them at least consider that they could be hung for what they've done? It makes absolutely no sense.

For some reason they can be duty abiding when it comes to being suspicious of Anders when they supposedly visit his clinic, but not Hawke. Wow.

Modifié par Viyu, 13 mai 2011 - 03:18 .

[blauterranit]

Strange, I can undeerstand this no-sense. Maybe because there is really some countries under cruel dictatorship in real world and I can understand how an oppressed sector of population can found support from other people, no matter legalicy, or laws. After all, Kirkwall is a no-stopped invaded city and its culture is just survivance. Can't you make talk your PNC with population of Kirkwall and what are their thoughts? I haven't calculated how many years took Kirkwall war after war but if I was a guard or a inhabitant for the 2 lastest generation I'd showed my nonconformity with templar inviders doing just my real job, not which ones that an kinght-commander-invadsor-dictatorial-vindictive wants. Do you never question the orders form a person like her???
Or maybe you confuse Kirkwall with Denerim... a city with a certain level of democracy (ehem!)
Have you any minimum of empathy with these people who had such unfortunnatly history and fate? I just see human actions, no-sense? surely, like real live.
Or if you prefer robots o modern-insensitive funtionaries?

Repeat: no-sense with our modern mind or culture, perfectly acceptable for an medieval-imaginary-chaotic-misstreated city.

[blauterranit]

For some reason they can be duty abiding when it comes to being suspicious of Anders when they supposedly visit his clinic, but not Hawke. Wow.

Maybe would be because Anders is conspirating against The Chantry and helping mages flee from the Gallows, constantly contacted with apostates, and Hawke not?

[Thothistox]

The invisible mage problem has been dealt with in this forum so I thought I might bring up another plot hole that bothers me: Aveline and the guards. Think about it. Hawke starts off his/her first year in Kirkwall doing work for smugglers or thugs and squeaky-clean Aveline agrees to go along with it. Then, after the year is over Aveline becomes a city guard, precisely the sort of person whose job it is to hunt down smugglers and thugs. Not only that, but she's a perfectionist and ambitious and she eventually deposes the captain and becomes captain herself. Miss squeaky-clean still has plenty of time for Hawke though. In fact, she has so much time you wonder how she does anything as a guard. Notice that her approval rating roughly corresponds to her preferences as a lover of the restoration of law and order. Notice also, that she has no problem with you continuing missions for your thugs or smugglers. She also has no problem with you, the character who spent a year smuggling and being a thug with her, walking right into her quarters and talking to her and potentially betraying what you did together. Imagine a modern parallel. Suppose an illegal immigrant to the U.S.A. bribes his way into the country and spends a year selling hard drugs, and then quits and becomes a cop and then eventually becomes chief of the L.A. police... oh and on the side he continues to work with the drug dealers. I know that the DA world is more anarchic and the analogy is imperfect, but you can see why I don't find this easy to believe.

The storytelling in DA2 is sloppy and it lacks motivation. It honestly looks like they had two teams of people: one that did the action and designed the characters, and the other whose responsibility was to do the story and fit the characters into it. When they realized that they were each going in a different direction they put in a few band-aid solutions in the form of banter dialogue and codex entries, but the experience is still cringeworthy and confusing, and completely spoils immersion.

To do a good RPG you don't need a brilliant story because you're making people live what you're telling. However, the story must be consistent.

...Other plot holes: I killed Zevran and he came back, this time in a very gay form. I killed Wynne... but Anders said that the blight was stopped by "two mages, one of them an apostate". (My warden was a warrior that time.)

[Xilizhra]

Notice also, that she has no problem with you continuing missions for your thugs or smugglers.

Actually, she takes rivalry hits for you accepting them.
Also, I don't believe Aveline did any work for Athenril/Meeran; at most, she'd pay for her share out of her guard salary, if she had to pay anything directly at all (I agree that her entrance into the city wasn't well enough looked at).

[hussey 92]

How Leliana can die in origins and then be alive in DA 2 is a big plot hole for me

Modifié par hussey 92, 21 mars 2012 - 01:46 .