44 réponses à ce sujet

[LivelyLaughter]

First I want to say that I am a fan of Bioware, they make games that I truly feel apart of and want to put time into.

With that said, I was really into the story and the relationship my character had formed with her companions, plus the fighting and everything else. My favorite companion was Bethany, who, near the end said something to the effect of, family is the most important thing and that she would be at my characters side. (something like that)

Anyway, the way the game ended seemed like a major slap in the face after sending over 100 hours, I mean back in DA Origins there was a celebration, congratulations, a chance to chat with the companions one last time. As well some idea that all the various choices I made through out the game were receiving some type of partial too full closure; along with suspenseful hints that more was yet to come...in the new game.

Jump forward to the end of DA 2 and in regard to siding with the mages and the loyalty of all the companions, is that they still all split up and go there own way. along with leaving the potential for becoming viscount, Bethany who had said family was all that mattered still departs (which is completely opposite of what the story was leading me to think should happen). What it comes down too is that DA 2 was essentially left with without a true ending or final chapter! I mean sure Varric provides his final thoughts and comments, but they are vague and thin at best.

Honestly I feel cheated by the "ending", Bethany should have stayed at Hawk's side and there should definitely have been some additional seconds of end game movie sequence...at the bare, absolute bare minimum Hawk should have been shown giving directions to here companions as they fled the city (or something like that). That way giving some idea, some closure to everything! Because, like I said, Varric's coments are so vague that it makes it seem as though everyone but him feel off the face of the earth.

All of this is why I'm truly disappointed and totally disgusted in the way Bioware decided to end the game, because this means that any future DLC or DA3 might or might not have anything to do with providing better closure to the game.

At this point, I had wanted to do another play through using a different class, but it really seems pointless considering the ending. I do know this, if the future DLC and expanion (if there is one) do not provide a better continuation from where this game ended, I will simply not buy it. To just leave an audience hanging the way Dragon Age 2 does at the end...is completely and utterly  not acceptable!

These are just my opinions, if others disagree that's there opinion.

[Foolsfolly]

Look, simply put: Act 3 is not good.

I liked the companion side quests and the Anders explosion was well done. And other than that...it's just not good.

[frustratemyself]

How did you manage to drag it out for 100 hours?

[thedistortedchild]

LivelyLaughter wrote...
 I'm truly disappointed and totally disgusted in the way Bioware decided to end the game

I want this made into a banner.... 

Also everything you said is 100% how I feel about the ending. 
thedistortedchild +20 friendship

Modifié par thedistortedchild, 04 mai 2011 - 05:36 .

[LivelyLaughter]

thedistortedchild wrote...

LivelyLaughter wrote...
 I'm truly disappointed and totally disgusted in the way Bioware decided to end the game

I want this made into a banner.... 

Also everything you said is 100% how I feel about the ending. 
thedistortedchild +20 friendship

::chuckles:: You just helped improve my evening by +20 happiness after the sad/bad game ending! As I'm at least relieved that I'm not alone about this.

[Plaintiff]

LivelyLaughter wrote...

All of this is why I'm truly disappointed and totally disgusted in the way Bioware decided to end the game, because this means that any future DLC or DA3 might or might not have anything to do with providing better closure to the game.

On the contrary, the opposite seems more likely. Frankly, I think the epilogue slides at the end of Origins were a mistake, especially given their subjective nature depending on how you played the game. The writers wrote themselves into corners, ended up retconning a lot of stuff and now people are pissed because Leliana is alive when she shouldn't be and blah blah blah.

By leaving it open-ended, the writers are giving themselves more freedom. When it comes to DLC, I'm willing to bet good money that the companions and the circumstances under which they leave Hawke will be the main focus. As for DA3, well, it shouldn't be about Hawke anyway, in my opinion. It should introduce a new protagonist instead.

At this point, I had wanted to do another play through using a different class, but it really seems pointless considering the ending. I do know this, if the future DLC and expanion (if there is one) do not provide a better continuation from where this game ended, I will simply not buy it. To just leave an audience hanging the way Dragon Age 2 does at the end...is completely and utterly  not acceptable!

By that logic any movie, book or game that left substantial room for a sequel is bad because it "leaves the audience hanging". DA2 is an installment in the middle of an ongoing series, resolving all the plot threads now would be stupid.

Personally,  I'm not disatisfied with the ending in the least. It's not common practice to give players a brief rundown of their character's lives post-game. The current conflict is resolved (or not, as the case may be) and the characters live happily ever after, at least until the next game.

[Whailor]

What annoyed me most was that BW keeps marketing DA2 with a slogan "Rise to power.. by any means necessary" and yet this doesn't show anywhere. Take DA: O, at the end there was a nice crowning ceremony, player could speak with people and so on. Basically you saw that you really did "achieve" your power. Or your friends did. In DA2 this is just hanging there and at best is mentioned by Varric, with few words. I expected that if my person becomes a viscount then I actually see the coronation ceremony, get to speak with people and friends and what not. Varric can later say that Hawke moved on, but as it is now it leaves Hawke's story hanging in the air, he feels more like some "filler person" between DA: O and DA3. Hopefully DA3 will not be such a mess what DA2 is, else the quality of the series is on a serious downward slope.

[Augustei]

Potential for becoming Viscount? If you side against the Templars you have 0 potential for becoming Viscount.. they are the ones who allow people to take the title and if your their enemy they wont let you take it. That said though, I agree with you regarding the ending makes the game a slap in the face

[Shadowbanner]

Why does everybody who criticizes DA2, whether by starting a new forum thread or writing an Amazon review, feel the urge of writing in the first line:

"First of all let me say I'm a huge Bioware fan, bla bla bla -rant continued-"

Does it add more credibility to what you write? There must be something psychological to it. Has anyone else noticed this trend?

It's ok, you don't need to excuse yourself, you dislike the game, we get it; join the crowd. No need to be a BioWare fan to dislike it. Bioware's employees are human and have slipped up. No pasa nada.

Modifié par Shadowbanner, 04 mai 2011 - 11:48 .

[Yrkoon]

Shadowbanner wrote...

Why does everybody who criticizes DA2, whether by starting a new forum thread or writing an Amazon review, feel the urge of writing in the first line:

"First of all let me say I'm a huge Bioware fan, bla bla bla -rant continued-"

Does it add more credibility to what you write? There must be something psychological to it. Has anyone else noticed this trend?

lol 

Well, I can't speak for Amazon reviews, but it's definitely a trend here, and  I can totally understand why.
 
It has to do  with  the bizzare, line-in-the-sand type battlefield that is this forum, Where if you criticise the game you're a hater, and if you praise the game, you're a fanboi.   So starting your thread by giving lip service to the company, right before  you verbally shred one of their games, is  one way to  distinguish yourself from the typical "hater" and sound more "reasonable"... I suppose.

The  flipside also happens a lot.  Someone who's about to lay    a  heaping pile of praise on  the  game will typically begin their post with:  "um ok, I'd like to start by saying that this game  is not perfect, it does have many flaws, BUT....

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 mai 2011 - 12:01 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Shadowbanner wrote...

Why does everybody who criticizes DA2, whether by starting a new forum thread or writing an Amazon review, feel the urge of writing in the first line:

"First of all let me say I'm a huge Bioware fan, bla bla bla -rant continued-"

There are those who do not like Bioware as an RPG developer. People who would rather play shooters, or would rather if their character had a sword that the gameplay either be a button masher like God of War, or prefer the Japanese form of RPGs. There are a myriad of other game developers and genres out there that do things different than Bioware. People who prefer those types of games may pick up Dragon Age and bash it, regardless of how good the game actually may be, because it is not their style.

People who have been playing Bioware games for over a decade love the developer and have been impressed with their story-telling abilities and compelling narratives. That has been Bioware's strong suit and a trademark of the company.

So if someone says they have been playing and loving Bioware games for years, but suddenly find this one having a lot of faults, I'd say it DOES give them more credence. People who bashed on DAO because they liked Call of Duty games more than Bioware-type games is what caused the drastic overhaul of Dragon Age, not people who loved DAO and helped make it into 2009's Game of the Year.

If you noticed that a friend was having a problem, where their actions no longer reflected who they were and was causing them to do bad things, would the fact that you have known them for ten years and seen their previous behavior NOT have a factor in the weight of your opinion?

[Sabriana]

I agree. In several points actually. The disclaimer states to me that the OP knows Bioware, and has expectations toward their titles. It also tells me that people are driven to the disclaimers because simple criticism/praise is highly likely to be followed by posts claiming hater/fanboi. Lastly, it tells me that the poster is not a new RPG player, and has at least some experience playing the genre.

Last agreeing statement: Yes. Act III was simply bad, imo

No, I did not hate the game, to me it was as average as the many hybrids on the market. Unfortunately I was stupid enough to purchase it at full price. Imo. Your mileage may vary. <---- also a disclaimer. It seems to be the law around here lately. The Order dictates, and Qun demands it.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Sabriana wrote...

I agree. In several points actually. The disclaimer states to me that the OP knows Bioware, and has expectations toward their titles. It also tells me that people are driven to the disclaimers because simple criticism/praise is highly likely to be followed by posts claiming hater/fanboi. Lastly, it tells me that the poster is not a new RPG player, and has at least some experience playing the genre.

Last agreeing statement: Yes. Act III was simply bad, imo

No, I did not hate the game, to me it was as average as the many hybrids on the market. Unfortunately I was stupid enough to purchase it at full price. Imo. Your mileage may vary. <---- also a disclaimer. It seems to be the law around here lately. The Order dictates, and Qun demands it.

Yes. But it also has to do with your personality, Sabrina. You simply accept that people have different opinions. You don't get angry when someone believes something else. In case you are unsure I see that you simply ask or resond that you are uncertain what the poster thinks. The people who can't do nothing but write one liners and post motivationals don't have any tools other than those to get their point accross. It is those people that are the problem. I think that the disclaimers are meant for them.

[Plaintiff]

I don't see how stating that you're a Bioware fan has any more credibility than people who say stupid **** like "I have a lot of [insert minority] friends, but..."

I don't think having a history with Bioware makes your opinion more valid, mentioning it just makes you sound arrogant and set in your ways. I haven't played Baldur's Gate or any Bioware games prior to Origins and frankly I'm glad I haven't because there seems to be a some sort of correlation between being a long-time Bioware fan and being a condescending jackass.

It's no coincidence that the term "fan" is derived from "fanatic". When you **** about every single change like it's some sort of personal betrayal, it's probably time to step back, take a deep breath and calm the **** down. Bioware told you there would be changes, they're not to blame if you don't like them.

[Yrkoon]

Plaintiff wrote...


I don't think having a history with Bioware makes your opinion more valid,.

If one's opinion  happens to be based on a quality comparison  being made to all the  other Bioware titles they've played, then, hell yes,    it certainly would make it more valid.

Much more valid than if someone who's  Brand new to bioware games  (only played one of them) comes on here and says something like:  wow, Bioware's really gone downhill with their games!

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 mai 2011 - 02:34 .

[Plaintiff]

Yrkoon wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...


I don't think having a history with Bioware makes your opinion more valid,.

If one's opinion  happens to be based on a quality comparison  being made to other Bioware titles, then, hell yes,    it certainly would make it more valid.

And there's *a lot* to be said about a game    if it happens to  to not live up to a company's long proven standards.

Hey. Hey. Guess what. You know what else is subjective? Quality. That's why there's more than one reviewer in the world. Because not everyone agrees about what's good.

There are no "long proven standards", and saying so is silly. What there is, is a long catalogue of games that, from what I can gather of the testimonies I keep hearing around here, didn't really do anything special, except continue following the "tried-and-true" formula of traditional RPGs. And that's fine, I like tried-and-true. If you like traditional RPGs to the exclusion of other kinds of games, then of course you're going to be upset when a company mixes things up a bit.

The only "standard" that exists is the one people have built up in their heads based purely on personal preference and no sort of objective data at all. I don't really give a crap if you like DA2 or not, I know my opinion of it and nobody else is going to sway me by bleating about "the good old days" when games didn't have voice acting and the stories were "like, so original" when in fact they were the same stories everyone else was telling but you didn't care because you were fifteen. Like DA2 or don't, but acting like every change is a slight against you, or obnoxiously parading your gaming history around like it matters just makes you look like a toolbag.

[Yrkoon]

Plaintiff wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...


I don't think having a history with Bioware makes your opinion more valid,.

If one's opinion  happens to be based on a quality comparison  being made to other Bioware titles, then, hell yes,    it certainly would make it more valid.

And there's *a lot* to be said about a game    if it happens to  to not live up to a company's long proven standards.

Hey. Hey. Guess what. You know what else is subjective? Quality. That's why there's more than one reviewer in the world. Because not everyone agrees about what's good..

  So?  We weren't discussing facts.    Nor were we discussing  the nature of subjectivity.  We were discussing whether or not a given opinion is VALID.

You cannot ignore the background and context (or lack thereof) when determining  the validity of an opinion.      That is why people who  seek legal advice tend to  listen to what a lawyer says, instead of the burger flipper at McDonalds.  Same  concept.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 mai 2011 - 03:08 .

[Ramus Quaritch]

That's what happens when you have such a short, rushed development cycle. You can thank EA for that.

[Plaintiff]

Yrkoon wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...


I don't think having a history with Bioware makes your opinion more valid,.

If one's opinion  happens to be based on a quality comparison  being made to other Bioware titles, then, hell yes,    it certainly would make it more valid.

And there's *a lot* to be said about a game    if it happens to  to not live up to a company's long proven standards.

Hey. Hey. Guess what. You know what else is subjective? Quality. That's why there's more than one reviewer in the world. Because not everyone agrees about what's good..

  So?  We weren't discussing facts.  We were discussing whether or not a given opinion is VALID.

Do you read my posts at all or do you just pick a sentence at random, make a half-assed attempt to refute it and then pat yourself on the back for a job well done?

All given opinions are equally valid. The only game I need to play to be on the same level as every other poster is DA2. This heirarchy of history-based validity, like Bioware's "standard", exists only in your own mind.

[Yrkoon]

Plaintiff wrote...

Do you read my posts at all or do you just pick a sentence at random, make a half-assed attempt to refute it and then pat yourself on the back for a job well done?

The latter, if I sense that the poster's rantings  don't even approach jr. high level, and thus not worth my attention

But where were we?  Oh yeah...

Plaintiff wrote...

All given opinions are equally valid.

That's not  even remotely true.


When I need a medical opinion, I'll seek it from a physician, not, say, a stockboy at Walmart.  Why?  because  a Doctor's opinion  on medical subjects is far more valid than the stockboy's opinion on medical subjects.  


Similar concept here.  When someone comes on this board and tells me that  DA2 is the only bioware game he's ever played, I  *won't* place more validity on his opinions - no matter what  they are -  than I will if someone comes on here and says:  hey, I've been playing Bioware games since 2001 and I think DA2 is  (insert opinion of the game)

The latter contains context.  A comparison is about to be made...  I can sink my teeth into comparisons because comparisons  are how you judge subjective things  (ie.  it's better than X; it's more actiony than Y;  It's got better Graphics than Z; the story is more fleshed out than  V.  etc.)

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 mai 2011 - 03:45 .

[Vicious]

I remember when I played the game, Anders blew up the Chantry and I thought it was because I did the justice quest. And I was like wow, this is like the best rpg ever, something so inconsequential made it impossible for me to get a decent ending.

Then i realized it was all forced. Everything happens no matter what you do. The game is a glorified flashback.

I was a sad bear

[Sabriana]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

I agree. In several points actually. The disclaimer states to me that the OP knows Bioware, and has expectations toward their titles. It also tells me that people are driven to the disclaimers because simple criticism/praise is highly likely to be followed by posts claiming hater/fanboi. Lastly, it tells me that the poster is not a new RPG player, and has at least some experience playing the genre.

Last agreeing statement: Yes. Act III was simply bad, imo

No, I did not hate the game, to me it was as average as the many hybrids on the market. Unfortunately I was stupid enough to purchase it at full price. Imo. Your mileage may vary. <---- also a disclaimer. It seems to be the law around here lately. The Order dictates, and Qun demands it.

Yes. But it also has to do with your personality, Sabrina. You simply accept that people have different opinions. You don't get angry when someone believes something else. In case you are unsure I see that you simply ask or resond that you are uncertain what the poster thinks. The people who can't do nothing but write one liners and post motivationals don't have any tools other than those to get their point accross. It is those people that are the problem. I think that the disclaimers are meant for them.

That's nice of you. Thanks Back at you, btw.

As for opinions, I think it does matter if a person knows developer X and their way of creating games when discussing shortcomings/improvements. Every dev company has different fingerprints on how they produce their wares. I more or less know what to expect from them, because I'm familiar with their product(s).

I would never expect a companion driven game from Bethsoft. I would never expect fabulous area designs from Bioware, and I would always expect an extremely buggy game from Obsidian (but very well written). Those are just examples, there is certainly more to it.

I would not dismiss someone's opinion about a game if she/he is new to the dev company, but I would also know that there are things that a newcomer might not yet know.

[SleepyBird]

Wow, I simply could not disagree more.  The ending of DA2 was so much more satisfying and complete for my Hawke than Origins was for my Warden.  I guess it depends on how the game played out for you personally.  I played both games as a girl, and the end of Origins felt like a half-assed work-around of a storyline clearly planned out for a male Warden - the offer Morrigan makes to a female Warden incredibly poorly thought out and emotionally unsatisfying.    I felt angry and cheated and it only got worse when I was unable to prevent Alistair's death in my first playthrough.  A death which was completely unacknowledged in that big end game party.  My Warden's heart was utterly broken but no one cared or bothered to mention it.  It was the single most unsatisfying and disappointing moment I ever experienced in a game. 

My Hawke, on the other hand, got to be the key figure at the start of an upcoming war between the mages and the Chantry.  That is just plain awesome - and even more importantly, available to every Hawke regardless of your gender.  My Hawke got a nice romantic moment with her LI before the final battle, as well as a mention from Varric that they stayed together.  My Hawke is alive and feels like an important part of the world she lived in.  I love that the end felt like it was just the beginning of something even bigger, and that Hawke was the crux of it all.

I don't understand the whining about the fact that Ander's can't be stopped from destroying the chantry.  Some things have to happen for the sake of storytelling.  If it were possible to stop him, we would now have an even bigger mess than the old god baby for the next game to try to sort out.  Half the player base wants the baby to come back and be a critical story point; the other half of players died to prevent that storyline from taking place, so how can the writers possibly make all players happy?  If Anders could be stopped, than the players who stopped him would be totally justified in not wanting the Chantry war to go forward in the next game.  There is already an outcry about retconning Lilliana's and Ander's deaths, and any mention of the old god baby immediately starts a forum war of why the baby must or must not return, it's good sense on BioWare's part to make some things non-optional.

[Plaintiff]

Yrkoon wrote...
The latter, if I sense that the poster's rantings  don't even approach jr. high level, and thus not worth my attention

But where were we?  Oh yeah...

This isn't really disproving my aformentioned hypothesis that "long-time Bioware fans are condescending jackasses"

It's funny that you bring up jr. high because the cliqueyness and elitism of these forums is a major blast from the past.

That's not  even remotely true.


When I need a medical opinion, I'll seek it from a physician, not, say, a stockboy at Walmart.  Why?  because  a Doctor's opinion  on medical subjects is far more valid than the stockboy's opinion on medical subjects.

"Hurr durr I'll take a single sentence out of context and construct my entire argument around it". You, my friend, have the makings of a fine politican. I really, really thought keeping it short would keep you from getting confused. All opinions are equally valid, when we are discussing a videogame that we have all played. Your metaphor is so laughably inept that... well, I laugh at it. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Similar concept here.  When someone comes on this board and tells me that  DA2 is the only bioware game he's ever played, I  *won't* place more validity on his opinions - no matter what  they are -  than I will if someone comes on here and says:  hey, I've been playing Bioware games since 2001 and I think DA2 is  (insert opinion of the game)

So you admit to elitism.

The latter contains context.  A comparison is about to be made...  I can sink my teeth into comparisons because comparisons  are how you judge subjective things  (ie.  it's better than X; it's more actiony than Y;  It's got better Graphics than Z; the story is more fleshed out than  V.  etc.)

But that's not what's going on here. People are acting as if they've been personally insulted and are parading their opinions around like they are objective truth when, in fact, playing and liking Bioware's previous titles means nothing except that you played and liked Bioware's previous titles. Having played other games by Bioware doesn't speak for how good of quality this game is in comparison to the others. It just speaks for how in line it is with their personal taste.

To support an argument that the game is good or not, one would need reasonably objective arguments for what's wrong with it and that has nothing to do with other games Bioware has made. And you know what? When people are squawking about being stabbed in the back or slapped in the face they are not demonstrating reason or objectivity.

You can say what you like about my level of maturity (nice use of ad hominem by the way), but I'm not belittling anyone's opinion the way you are mine. I'm simply pointing out the poor way they choose to express it.

[Yrkoon]

Plaintiff wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
The latter, if I sense that the poster's rantings  don't even approach jr. high level, and thus not worth my attention

But where were we?  Oh yeah...

This isn't really disproving my aformentioned hypothesis that "long-time Bioware fans are condescending jackasses"

It's funny that you bring up jr. high because the cliqueyness and elitism of these forums is a major blast from the past.

Jr. High elitism?  Say what?  Where did you go to jr. high?

That's not  even remotely true.


When I need a medical opinion, I'll seek it from a physician, not, say, a stockboy at Walmart.  Why?  because  a Doctor's opinion  on medical subjects is far more valid than the stockboy's opinion on medical subjects.

"Hurr durr I'll take a single sentence out of context and construct my entire argument around it".

Bullsh*t.    Out of context nothing.    When you make an absolute statement,   I'm gonna  bring it down with  an example that disproves it.  Don't like it?  Then don't make silly absolute statements.

<gag>

Similar concept here.  When someone comes on this board and tells me that  DA2 is the only bioware game he's ever played, I  *won't* place more validity on his opinions - no matter what  they are -  than I will if someone comes on here and says:  hey, I've been playing Bioware games since 2001 and I think DA2 is  (insert opinion of the game)

So you admit to elitism.

Except that it's not elitism.  It's simply an example of how to whittle through a sea of opinions and find the ones that are most valid for the subject being discussed.   (DA2 IS a sequel, remember?)  I tend to apply similar  judgement-making with different subjects of discussion.  For example,    If this were a discussion about what NEW bioware fans thought of DA2, I would discard all opinions made by long time Bioware fans.

The latter contains context.  A comparison is about to be made...  I can sink my teeth into comparisons because comparisons  are how you judge subjective things  (ie.  it's better than X; it's more actiony than Y;  It's got better Graphics than Z; the story is more fleshed out than  V.  etc.)

But that's not what's going on here. People are acting as if they've been personally insulted and are parading their opinions around like they are objective truth when, in fact, playing and liking Bioware's previous titles means nothing except that you played and liked Bioware's previous titles. Having played other games by Bioware doesn't speak for how good of quality this game is in comparison to the others. It just speaks for how in line it is with their personal taste.


To support an argument that the game is good or not, one would need reasonably objective arguments for what's wrong with it and that has nothing to do with other games Bioware has made. And you know what? When people are squawking about being stabbed in the back or slapped in the face they are not demonstrating reason or objectivity.

You can say what you like about my level of maturity (nice use of ad hominem by the way), but I'm not belittling anyone's opinion the way you are mine. I'm simply pointing out the poor way they choose to express it.

Of course that's exactly what's going on here.    And of course the vast VAST majority of DA2's criticism  (at least on this forum)  stems directly  from the fact that it was such a huge letdown  from the first game.  Or to be more accurate, if you REALLY care to  try and understand where the vast majority of the gripes are coming from, and what they're really about,  then I'd suggest you try to understand the CONTEXT here.  Their  opinons become a little more   valid when you do.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 mai 2011 - 05:48 .