63 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

So most likely there are about 20 other threads devoted to this. I don't know, but let's add another anyway.

First off, let's examine the enemies within the Primeval Thaig. We fight Golems. That's right, Golems. This suggests that the Dwarves of the Primeval Thaig discovered a way to create Golems long before Caridin did. What's even stranger is that these Golems seem to use some sort of magic as well. By that I mean when the Golem you first fight is crouching and drawing in energy. Golems using spells isn't something we've seen before, save for in Amgarrak.


Second, let's examine how thin the Veil is. We know that there are spirits in the Veil, and that the Veil thins with much death. What if they dabbled too far into magic? What if the Dwarves of the Primeval Thaig are in some way responsible for the presence of the Darkspawn. As we know, the current Dwarves first sighted the Darkspawn in the Deep Roads. What if these Dwarves of Old are to blame? 

Third, let's examine the Profane, otherwise known as Rock Wraiths. Dwarven Mythos states that these creatures are dwarves whom even the Stone has rejected, and are forced to wander the caverns in an unnatural state of being. They are neither alive nor dead. The hunger demon told us that they feed off of the lyrium in the caverns. When we fight them, they are able to cast some spells to attack us. Now this can be attributed to one of two things. The first being their feeding off of the lyrium is what gave them their magic. The other one is that these Dwarves could cast magic when they were alive and continue to do so in their newfound state of madness

Fourth, we know that within the Primeval Thaig is a type of lyrium called Red Lyrium. This new and strange form of the magical stone is far more potent and deadly than normal lyrium. It drives the people who hold it into a state of insanity that is far beyond anything seen by the people of Thedas. A few  theories have been thrown around. Some being:

• It has to do with the Old Gods - Bartrand remarks upon how he hears singing, as does Varric. We know that the Archdemon sings to the Darkspawn and the Ghouls, as Ruck mentions the song. So too does the Mother. So far this theory, being one I thought up and a few other people liked/agreed with, is grasping at straws. Still, it is within the realm of possibility.
  
  
  
• It emphasizes things that are already present - With Meredith we saw her paranoia increase probably more than three times, eliminating all trace of her thinking rationally. With Bartrand, it's hard to say. Maybe his greed? I'm not really sure. This too is within the realm of possibility.
  
  
  
• It allows magic - Ok this is one I just now thought up, but what if when Sandal said "not enchantment" he was able to cast a spell because of how close he was to the Primeval Thaig? He was certainly closer than the rest of the expedition, save for Hawke and Company. What if this lyrium allowed Dwarves to use magic? What if the Dwarves of old were actually able to use magic, explaining how the Primeval Thaig was built? Maybe Red Lyrium gave them the ability to use magic, whereas Blue Lyrium rendered them resistant to it.

 



Sadly, there was at least one other thing I wanted to examine, but because I was typing so much I can't remember what it was. I have a ******-poor memory sometimes. Anyway, let's discuss!
edit: moved things around. Hopefully it looks better.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 mai 2011 - 06:08 .

[TEWR]

Shale was magically altered though do to Wilhelm, so that might be why


As for Caridin, I see your point. Why other golems didn't do this though is a mystery.

[Augustei]

I always thought the reasoning for red lyrium sending people insane was simply because it was extremely concentrated. So like where normal lyrium that templars drink takes like a couple of decades to send someone crazy this one takes weeks or months.. But then there was the calling it was making so yeah The Old god relation is quite possible and I do believe that the dwarves of this thaig could indeed be the cause of the darkspawn

[TEWR]

that's actually not a bad relation. Maybe it has to do with pressure? The farther down the lyrium is, the more potent and deadly?

I'm also going to add up top how the Profane, who in Dwarven Mythos are Dwarves the Stone rejects, also seem to use magic. So this also supports the idea that Dwarves could once use magic.

Then, there's the Nexus Golem who says "We were once more than we are." which could mean that Dwarves were once mages too.

If there's one thing DA2 did right, it was give us more stuff to speculate on besides the Mage-Templar War.

[Esbatty]

The Primeval Thaig's Red Lyrium idol seemed to have transformed the old inhabitants tot he point that even Demons came to prey on them. Couple this with Kirkwall's thin veil, and bringing the Lyrium Idol to Kirkwall, it seemed to bring the demons out into the city and Sundermount.

[TEWR]

I've never once had that happen in my kill Branka runs. hmmm.... I take it Branka wasn't a rogue? Because if she was, it could be attributed to a Rogue type ability. But I think she was a warrior.

And I agree, Eleni Zinovia's comment might have something to do with the Primeval Thaig. Assuming the two events coincide with another.

As for "The Stone lives beneath Orlais", I feel that just refers more to Kal-Sharok. Kal-Sharok is situated underneath a mountain pass that is in between Orlesian lands and Anderfelsian lands

[Augustei]

Hey I just remembered, what about that dead dwarf in the deep roads in the calling that came to life and brought them all into the fade. Didn't the corpse begin to glow red? Maybe the idol is related to demons perhaps even that story of the blood ritual and the ancient demons like Gaxxkang etc

[TEWR]

I haven't read the books sadly. Are they any good? I know The Calling gives more insight into the Grey Wardens and The Stolen Throne details the Rebellion against Orlais.

[Esbatty]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I haven't read the books sadly. Are they any good? I know The Calling gives more insight into the Grey Wardens and The Stolen Throne details the Rebellion against Orlais.

Stolen Throne was more of an Origins set up while The Calling was more for Awakening. Although there is some cross pollination. They're damn good reads.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...




[*]It has to do with the Old Gods - Bartrand remarks upon how he hears singing, as does Varric. We know that the Archdemon sings to the Darkspawn and the Ghouls, as Ruck mentions the song. So too does the Mother. So far this theory, being one I thought up and a few other people liked/agreed with, is grasping at straws. Still, it is within the realm of possibility.

Don't forget that dwarves are predisposed to hearing lyrium (which is supposed to sing on its own). Perhaps this lyrium sounds different, but if the dwarves are the only ones who can hear it it may have nothing to do with the darkspawn.

(Then again, it may indeed be tainted lyrium, and only the dwarves can hear it because it's tainted *lyrium*.)

If this is of interest to your debate, I did a blog on Lyrium not so long ago and mentioned the Primeval Thaig. I won't spam this thread with it, but here's a piece:

"Add to this we can even find Corrupted Lyrium as a resource (in addition to Raw Lyrium and Refined Lyrium, although they all serve the same purpose as 'lyrium' reagents in the end), and things get even murkier, especially considering there is no information on this corrupted lyrium. Corrupted by what? Blight? Magic? Whatever corrupted that weird idol and Primeval Thaig in the Deep Roads?"

[Deputy Secretary of Awesome]

The Primeval Thaig has me really intigued.

Is it in fact Dwarven at all?
Or a very early Dwarven society?
Maybe the first civilisation that stumbled upon the Darkspawn?
Or is it the remnants of the civilisation that the Darkspawn used to be before they were corrupted?

[Corker]

Re: magic, my pet theory is that, like every other intelligent race on Thedas, dwarves used to be able to go to the Fade and do magic. Something bad happened in Primeval Thaig - either the Bad Thing itself stripped them of their ability to do magic, or (my preference) the Bad Thing was so bad, the dwarves destroyed their own ability to do magic to make sure it would never happen again.

I doubt it caused the darkspawn. There's a very long time between the beginning of dwarven history, which this thaig predates, and the first darkspawn sightings - some of the elves of Arlathan escaped to Cadash Thaig when their empire fell, and that was a good 1,000 years before the first Blight.

[Abispa]

I think it's a Thiag created by prehistoric Dwarves long before they lost their ability to use magic and dream. I've always been curious if the Dwarven resistance to magic may be been the result of generations being exposed to lyrium and becoming immune to it, which is why they can do rune crafting without becoming tranquil.

Through DA:O, DA:A, and D2, Bioware has hinted that there were once human, Elvhen, and Dwarven civilizations that were different from what exists now, that they all had a closer relationship and that magic was more prevalent.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

that's actually not a bad relation. Maybe it has to do with pressure? The farther down the lyrium is, the more potent and deadly?

I posted a similar theory a few weeks ago, http://social.biowar...72117/4#7116196 ... obviously didn't get much of a response though.  =/  Anyway, this brings up something else I've wanted to mention for a week or so.  Look at the lyrium in the Primordial Thaig.  Much of it is clearly used by the thaig's former residents to make things.  The pillars are clearly manmade (err, dwarfmade?) of red lyrium.  But there's also...  for a lack of a better word, what looks like roots of it.  As if it's growing.  And when you think about it, if there wasn't a self-replenishing supply of it there then the Profane wouldn't still be there eating it after thousands of years.  Could the lyrium be some sort of strange plantlife?

I sure hope they aren't recycling the Thorian though.  The lyrium idol and darkspawn corruption are already too close to indoctrination.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I've never once had that happen in my kill Branka runs. hmmm.... I take it Branka wasn't a rogue? Because if she was, it could be attributed to a Rogue type ability. But I think she was a warrior.

Really?  I usually play on Normal (or even easy, before the spell shaping mod... I hate friendly fire), I powergame and sometimes even abuse the Winter Forge to make ridiculously overpowered stuff, always leave the Deep Roads to last because I hate that part, and I still don't usually have the dps to take her out before she does the splitting thing.

Anyway I don't think we should pay too much attention to battle mechanics.  Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.  If it was Sandal using lyrium for magic I'd say maybe it meant something, but Branka was born and raised in Orzammar, she was just a random madwoman that needed some "epic" battle mechanic.  Besides, if we're asking questions about that part, I prefer the question be "why does the anvil shatter from one hammer blow?  it's literally made to take thousands of hits with a hammer!"

[Blacklash93]

My theory is that the red lyrium is basically the blood magic version of regular lyrium.

It looks like blood veins, for one. It's red, obviously, but the way it branches out by design resembles the ends of blood veins.

Not much to go on, but it's as plausable as any other theory out there.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 04 mai 2011 - 12:06 .

[TEWR]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Don't forget that dwarves are predisposed to hearing lyrium (which is supposed to sing on its own). Perhaps this lyrium sounds different, but if the dwarves are the only ones who can hear it it may have nothing to do with the darkspawn.

(Then again, it may indeed be tainted lyrium, and only the dwarves can hear it because it's tainted *lyrium*.)

If this is of interest to your debate, I did a blog on Lyrium not so long ago and mentioned the Primeval Thaig. I won't spam this thread with it, but here's a piece:

"Add to this we can even find Corrupted Lyrium as a resource (in addition to Raw Lyrium and Refined Lyrium, although they all serve the same purpose as 'lyrium' reagents in the end), and things get even murkier, especially considering there is no information on this corrupted lyrium. Corrupted by what? Blight? Magic? Whatever corrupted that weird idol and Primeval Thaig in the Deep Roads?"

Yes but Bartrand was talking to someone. When we hand the lyrium ring over to Justice, the game shows us what the "singing" actually was. It was a soft, melodious hum. Bartrand was actually talking to something.

Whether Meredith was hearing any singing is unknown. If so, I bet she thought it was The Maker singing to her.

[Foolsfolly]

It emphasizes things that are already present - With Meredith we saw her paranoia increase probably more than three times, eliminating all trace of her thinking rationally. With Bartrand, it's hard to say. Maybe his greed? I'm not really sure. This too is within the realm of possibility.

While this is a possibility, I really don't think the Idol does such. I don't see forcing people to eat lyrium and the like as being related to greed. Likewise, I don't see how raising a ghost Golem has anything to do with anything.

If it does anything I think the idol does:

1- Whatever the Plot Requires, ask no questions.
2- It's alive and does what it wants.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yes but Bartrand was talking to someone. When we hand the lyrium ring over to Justice, the game shows us what the "singing" actually was. It was a soft, melodious hum. Bartrand was actually talking to something.

Whether Meredith was hearing any singing is unknown. If so, I bet she thought it was The Maker singing to her.

Yes, Meredith was hearing something.  One of the NPC's mentions that people keep hearing Meredith talking to someone in her office, but finding she's alone when they go in.  Bartrand also mentions that the idol "wanted to be worshipped."  It seems the idol isn't just making a hum but is actually talking to its victims.  Or at least whatever poisonous effect it has is making them think they hear voices.

...  This is really out there, but...  could the magistrate's son have been affected by it somehow?  I figured he was just suffering from severe schizophrenia but this also fits and it'd make more sense from a storytelling point of view.

Edit to add...

Foolsfolly wrote...

While this is a possibility, I really don't think the Idol does such. I don't see forcing people to eat lyrium and the like as being related to greed. Likewise, I don't see how raising a ghost Golem has anything to do with anything.

If it does anything I think the idol does:

1- Whatever the Plot Requires, ask no questions.
2- It's alive and does what it wants.

It's also possible that Bartrand's nuttiness was due to being seperated from it.  Withdraw, if you will.  The ghost golem?  NFI there.  =/

Modifié par Rifneno, 04 mai 2011 - 01:03 .

[TEWR]

It would make that quest more interesting...


I'd still kill him, but I'd empathize with the b*stard

[Sussurus]

Just to add something else...
DA:O in the urn of Andraste ashes quest, Oghren explicitly states that the sheer amount of Lyrium in the mountain is of a nature he'd never felt.
That everything there was of a result of its influence and not divine in nature.

Lyrium of such power or quantity seems to pretty much make anything real.

The idol itself could be a god, or have so much power that its presence around sentient creatures shapes belief into something else.

Also the singing is not only exclusive to the old gods... chant of light.
Andrastes voice singing and calling the maker.
Dalish songs to mark moments of importance.

I don't think Sandal suddenly became able to use magic...
I think he is a member of whatever dwarven race lived in the Thaig.
More than likely we will see more of his people soon, or at least those that drove them.

Maybe they were the fisrt Darkspawn.
Tevinter and Dwarven experiments to be used in one of the civil wars that the race goes through.
Dwarven mages turned abomination, effected by Lyrium, destroying themselves.
The other dwarves found ways to tranquil themselves in an effort to stop the spread.. but the spawn evolved.

Modifié par Sussurus, 04 mai 2011 - 01:17 .

[TEWR]

maybe Sandal is a descendant of the Primeval Thaig Dwarves, who were able to use magic?

[Sussurus]

Yes that is my theory... bound to be wrong though.

Just Bodhan finds him alone in the deeproads and adopts him.
He is an enchanter, a savant.
Looks not much like any other dwarf in game.
Knows the ancient thaig, and has knowledge beyond your character.

Flemith has an interest in him... "the lady with the scary laugh."

[TEWR]

Yep I picked up on the Flemeth bit too.


I always laugh when he scratches his ass. I must say, DA2 Sandal is a win.