59 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Encouragement! In that case...

It's possible that Flemeth is trying to raise the Old Gods to become a new pantheon of sorts, by releasing them from their underground imprisonment. It's even made me wonder if the darkspawn are the only beings who can release them at all... which could possibly mean that Flemeth was behind them as well, and that the darkspawn only exist to free the Old Gods, whose souls can then be transplanted. However, since other Archdemons seem to have been obliterated before, this seems unlikely, or at least is unlikely to have worked for all of the Old Gods.

[Rifneno]

Esbatty wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Another hypothesis: Flemeth is Fen'Harel, trying to make up for sealing away the Dalish gods by bringing the old magic back into the world. Andraste was likely her first attempt, but it apparently failed, unless all Flemeth wanted was to defeat those who'd destroyed Arlathan.

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter/blog.

Ditto.    But I think the Dumat/Andraste theory is better by far.  Someone with incredible powers, arguably the most powerful person in Thedas' history, appears right after the Dumat archdemon was slain once and for all.  That's a hell of a coincidence.

It's also worth noting that although the First Blight gets extensive lore coverage, the name of what should be one of the greatest heroes in history, the Grey Warden who slew Dumat, is unknown.

[Brockololly]

Faroth wrote...

Maybe Morrigan is Flemeth...or Flemeth as she should be.

Eh....when BioWare starts taking story points from the Star Wars prequels and has Morrigan the unaltered clone of Flemeth a la Jango and Boba Fett...ummm yeah.

[Amagoi]

The idea of Flemeth being beheaded by Samuel Jackson sounds pretty nice to me, personally. But yeah. When ideas are taken right out of those movies, I think it's time for the writing team to throw in the towel.

[Esbatty]

I still want the chance to romance Flemeth, no matter how much that may irk Gaider. Male Praying Mantis's cannot help themselves, otherwise there wouldn't be anymore of them.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Andraste being the Old God baby of Dumat would paint her Exalted March in an interesting light. It'd would be like she was trying to repent of the First Sin by leading humanity to believe in the Maker.

[Esbatty]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Andraste being the Old God baby of Dumat would paint her Exalted March in an interesting light. It'd would be like she was trying to repent of the First Sin by leading humanity to believe in the Maker.

I like that.

[Dave of Canada]

Based off what we're hinted at in the game:
Every being used to have magic. (Sandal prophecy, Nexus Golem ramblings)
Flemeth is very, very old.
Flemeth wants the Old God Baby.
Flemeth's "when you leap, you learn how to fly" thing seems to suggest siding with the Mages over the Templar.
[Witch Hunt] Morrigan, if you refused the ritual, suggests her plans weren't that nefarious or something.

My theory:
Flemeth played a part in removing magic from the world, one of her regrets that she "knows well" (how every mage is locked up, prosecuted, ect). Maybe as a way to repent, she wants to bring magic back to the world with the assistance of the Old God Baby which Sandal's prophecy references as bringing back magic.

Those are my two cents.

/shrug

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 06 mai 2011 - 07:36 .

[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Andraste being the Old God baby of Dumat would paint her Exalted March in an interesting light. It'd would be like she was trying to repent of the First Sin by leading humanity to believe in the Maker.

Indeed.  But it's also possible that being born anew in human form, she (he?) wouldn't even remember life as Dumat.  It's entirely possible that if Andraste was the Dumat OGB, she didn't even know it.

But really, I love this Andraste=Dumat OGB theory.  It's frickin' brilliant.  Look at the timeline.  Andraste's army managed to defeat the Tevinter Imperium because they were still reeling from 200 years of blight mayhem.  As far as I could find in the codexes, they don't give exact times but it seems very plausible that the OGB could've had time to grow into an adult while Tevinter is still reeling from the First Blight.  Even if the dates don't match up precisely, it's been a thousand years, it'd be easy for a decade to get lost in the shuffle.

[Razor_Zeng]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Faroth wrote...

Maybe Morrigan is Flemeth...or Flemeth as she should be. Morrigan will return in DA3 to lead the Hero of Ferelden, Hawke, and Varric to Rohan where Flemeth has taken over the kingdom.

Wait...what?

I joked in another thread that since we see Flemeth can be in more than one place at a time, and obviously can shapeshift, has a knack for tricking people, maybe Morrigan is just copy of Flemeth.  Then I thought about it and realized it made more sense than it should.  Now the joke scares me.  

I don't think Flemeth would have "prepared" for her death of Morrigan was really Flemeth, although I don't know what the doppleganger Flemeth plans to do if the real Flemeth was never killed in the first place.

New Flemeth is going to settle down Male Hawke and have Dragonhawke babies. Babies with fleathers. Fleathers being leather feathers.

[Faroth]

Brockololly wrote...

Faroth wrote...

Maybe Morrigan is Flemeth...or Flemeth as she should be.

Eh....when BioWare starts taking story points from the Star Wars prequels and has Morrigan the unaltered clone of Flemeth a la Jango and Boba Fett...ummm yeah.

It was a joking reference to another movie where one spell caster claims to be another "as he should have been."  The other clue is the reference to Rohan in my silly example of DA3's plot. 

[helloween7]

My pet wild theory of the moment is that Flemeth is indeed one of the Old Gods, but one that never was tainted and is supposed to be sleeping still (namely, Razikale, the Dragon of Mystery).

I also like the idea of Sandal being the product of a Dark Ritual gone wrong due to the target embryo being dwarven and partially immune to magic/disconnected from the Fade, or even the result of the chain of circumstances leading to the soul transfer occurring naturally (the dwarven Warden(s) had a wild party the night before the Archdemon was slain and, well, accidents happen.)

Modifié par helloween7, 06 mai 2011 - 02:38 .

[LobselVith8]

Rifneno wrote...

Indeed.  But it's also possible that being born anew in human form, she (he?) wouldn't even remember life as Dumat.  It's entirely possible that if Andraste was the Dumat OGB, she didn't even know it.

The first Archdemon Dumat was killed in 992 TE, and Andraste lead the armies with her husband Maferath in 1020 TE.

Let's hope the child Urthemiel doesn't remember his prior life as an Archdemon. I can imagine how well the father/son conversations will go if that isn't the case.

[deuce985]

Morrigan is Flemeth. It is obvious the ritual has been done before by Flemeth because Morrigan is so sure it works. Which leads me to believe Morrigan was born by a dark ritual. Perhaps Flemeth taught her everything she knew because Morrigan has untapped potential. Having similar powers to a Old God. Flemeth could be a God. The question is who? A long lost one, the Elven god that supposedly still exists or is she the original Archdemon Dumat(sp?)? She clearly has more intelligence than a typical archdemon who never seem to communicate "intelligently". You could say Flemeth was just a normal person too who became a powerful mage at one time. Doing what no other mage could do in gaining Old God powers? This is likely the case to me, as it would make more sense for her to bed down with a Warden and fit the tale about Flemeth. And she is a master shapeshifter. Morrigan does mention Flemeth is something more than a abomination too. Perhaps possessed by Dumat himself from the Fade. Dragons obviously go there as everyone else does. As evidenced in Awakening.

The theory on these forums she is the Elven god is quite interesting when you look at the entire thing. It also would fit into DA2 where the amulet was given to the Dalish and they told how to summon the one out of it. They obviously did not fear the one in the amulet...maybe because they knew who it was?

Modifié par deuce985, 06 mai 2011 - 05:38 .

[Faroth]

I thought Flemeth didn't actually teach Morrigan anything about the Dark Ritual, though. From my understanding, Morrigan was supposed to return the Dark Grimoire to Flemeth, but she kept it and it was within the book that she learned of the ritual.

Morrigan and Flemeth aren't one and the same, though it seems Morrigan believe Flemeth takes over the body of her daughter as another way of extending her life.

So far the only powers we legitimately know Flemeth has is that she's extremely long lived, supposedly can transfer her soul to another body, and she's an incredibly powerful shapeshifter being able to take a dragon's form.

What of these powers are similar to an Old God's? That isn't entirely clear.

There does seem to be some worthwhile speculation of her connection to the Elven gods, though.

Time will tell!

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Morrigan said that going with the Warden to have the Old God Baby was the reason that Flemeth sent with them in the first place.

Andraste being Dumat is possible. Timeline wise it would seem to fit almost perfectly ( at least possibly. I don't think we have an exact date of Andraste's birth.) But I would have to question that if Dumat's soul was transferred to a mortal baby, how would anyone know that a Grey Warden must be sacrificed to kill an Archdemon? I mean, he would have been the first one they learned that from.

[Augustei]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

So, in DAO, we see that in the option to do the Dark Ritual with Morrigan, Flemeth is actually the mastermind behind the whole concept. Flemeth was the one who trained Morrigan with everything she knows, put her in place with the Warden, showeed her the ritual, etc., etc.

My question is... has Flemeth tried this before? And, furthermore, has she suceeded? 

The Wardens believed in DAO that no one had survived absorbing an archdemon before. But is it possible that they may have faked their deaths, distorted history, or something of the like, in order to conceal the fact that someone else may have done the Dark Ritual as well to save their own hide?

If so (and this is really the gist of my post), could it be possible that there have been previous OGB in the past? And that they sired a family line of some of the more prestigous houses in the DA world? The Couslands? The Orlesian Imperial line? Possibly even the Aeducans (since we can see that a dwarven male PC in DAO can partake in the Dark Ritual)?

Curious to see people's thoughts on this.

The Couslands are not really a prestigous house, Ferelden is a backwater and the couslands aren't even the primary family in it, same kind of applys to the Aeducans except orzammar isn't a backwater.

The Theirins maybe, or yeah the Orlesian Imperial line.. Maybe the Antivan one

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Indeed.  But it's also possible that being born anew in human form, she (he?) wouldn't even remember life as Dumat.  It's entirely possible that if Andraste was the Dumat OGB, she didn't even know it.

The first Archdemon Dumat was killed in 992 TE, and Andraste lead the armies with her husband Maferath in 1020 TE.

Let's hope the child Urthemiel doesn't remember his prior life as an Archdemon. I can imagine how well the father/son conversations will go if that isn't the case.

"Yeah.. Sorry about killing you that one time, but you were being a real arse and killing everybody"

[Rifneno]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Indeed.  But it's also possible that being born anew in human form, she (he?) wouldn't even remember life as Dumat.  It's entirely possible that if Andraste was the Dumat OGB, she didn't even know it.

The first Archdemon Dumat was killed in 992 TE, and Andraste lead the armies with her husband Maferath in 1020 TE.

Let's hope the child Urthemiel doesn't remember his prior life as an Archdemon. I can imagine how well the father/son conversations will go if that isn't the case.

So the most powerful person in Thedas' history just happened to appear as an adult 28 years after the Dumat archdemon was slain.  Could that really be a coincedence?  I've read a lot of thought-provking theories on these forums that make a lot of sense, but this Andraste/Dumat one is the only one I honestly think has a > 50% chance of turning out to be true.

deuce985 wrote...

Morrigan is Flemeth. It is obvious the ritual has been done before by Flemeth because Morrigan is so sure it works. Which leads me to believe Morrigan was born by a dark ritual. Perhaps Flemeth taught her everything she knew because Morrigan has untapped potential. Having similar powers to a Old God. Flemeth could be a God. The question is who? A long lost one, the Elven god that supposedly still exists or is she the original Archdemon Dumat(sp?)?

My money's firmyl on Fen'Harel.  Only because Fen'Harel is clearly still around going by that codex in the Black Emporium.  In Act III there's a box of messages there, but they're all in code and the NPCs don't know what they mean.  Once deciphered, they seem to be talking of current day events and one of them reads "An eclipse as Fen'Harel stirs."  The point of the codex seemed to be to tell us that FH is definitely still around.

(For anyone that wants to decipher those for themselves to verify, write the messages backwards as they're reversed.  Then shift each letter 3 to the left.  So for instance, D becomes A, K becomes H, B becomes Y.  It's what's called a Caesar cipher.)

Filament wrote...

I dunno, I kind of like that Andraste, for all we know, is just some charismatic person who claimed to speak to her deity. It nicely parallels the history of religions in the real world. If we are to go and say, no actually she had the soul of the head honcho Old God all along, and make it a matter of fact rather than just speculation, well that feels like it would cheapen the whole thing.

Except she had incredible powers.  That's why they thought she was divine and mages sometimes believe she was just an extremely powerful mage.  There has to be a source for her powers, and this makes perfect sense.  I understand why you'd like the symbolism, but I don't think it's fair to say this cheapens it.

[HSHAW]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Morrigan said that going with the Warden to have the Old God Baby was the reason that Flemeth sent with them in the first place.

Andraste being Dumat is possible. Timeline wise it would seem to fit almost perfectly ( at least possibly. I don't think we have an exact date of Andraste's birth.) But I would have to question that if Dumat's soul was transferred to a mortal baby, how would anyone know that a Grey Warden must be sacrificed to kill an Archdemon? I mean, he would have been the first one they learned that from.

Think of it this way.

#1: The ones who would be the first Grey Wardens figure out how to become Grey Wardens.

#2: Flemeth seduces and sleeps with one of them before the fight to kill Dumat.

#3: Grey Wardens fight Dumat, killing him but dying of their wounds in the process and nobody realizes that the Dark Ritual occured since the Warden that did it dies of his injuries.

#4: "Andraste" is born.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

But all the other Archdemons died in the way that the Grey Wardens believed to be the same way Dumat died. It just seems like too much of a coincidence that they mistakenly thought they killed Dumat one way that turned out to be the only way to kill an Archdemon.

[Dio Demon]

Flemeth perhaps is just a mage that has figured out like Avernus the secret to living for ages. But her body slowly falls apart so she made a deal with a demon so she can live without a proper body. The demon taught her how to perform the ritual so she did it with a Grey Warden before Dumat was slain.

When the OGB was born she allowed the child to grow and reach its full potential before she did something to consume its power. So she was able to change her form at will.

Not wanting anyone to match her power she donned the name Andraste and waged war against the powerful Tevinter Imperium and Maferath, Andraste's husband was the Warden who slayed Dumat. But during the crusade against the Tevinter Imperium he realised that he created a monster and betrayed Flemeth/Andraste. But she predicted this and created a fragment of herself so that she could return.

But her power was never the same so she had 'daughters' and consumed their power in an attempt to regain her lost power. So during the start of the fifth blight and she saw her opportunity to fully regain her power. So she sent Morrigan with the Warden but Morrigan decided to pull one up on Flemeth and attempt to protect the baby from Flemeth.

Modifié par Crazy Eyed One, 07 mai 2011 - 04:51 .

[Rifneno]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

But all the other Archdemons died in the way that the Grey Wardens believed to be the same way Dumat died. It just seems like too much of a coincidence that they mistakenly thought they killed Dumat one way that turned out to be the only way to kill an Archdemon.

Facts are often lost in time as the stories are repeated.  It'd be easy for something like that to get mixed up.  For example, recent historical evidence indicates Hercules might have been real.  Seriously.  Hercules.  Obviously he wasn't really the son of Zeus and never slew an immortal hydra, but some evidence points to the legend being based on a real hero who fought injustice.

More importantly, we have virtually no information on the Warden who slew Dumat.  The Second Blight, lead by archdemon Zazikel, was defeated by Corin.  The Third Blight, we have very little information on for some reason.  The slayer of the archdemon is unknown, but very little is known.  The Fourth blight, lead by archdemon Andoral, was defeated by Garahel.  The First and Third Blights are ended by unknown heroes.  The Third Blight seems to be regarded of little importance and is only given a paragraph or so of information.  The archdemon Toth was defeated at Hunter Fell by the armies of Tevinter and Orlais.  It looks to have been the second quickest and cleanest Blight, of course behind the Fifth that our Wardens ended so quickly some scholars aren't even sure it was a Blight.  On the other hand, the information on the First Blight is fairly detailed.  It has four codexes all of its own.  How is something as noteworthy as the name of the Warden who ended it mysteriously left out?  That sent up some red flags with me a month or so ago when I was listing the heroes who slew the archdemon and couldn't find anything on Dumat's.  There almost has to be more to this story than we're told.