244 réponses à ce sujet

[Mad.Hatter]

Cheating in single-player would imply that there is some rule or norm to violate and cheat against. The only rule or norm that is universal to all end-users of a particular game is the EULA that games force you to sign before installing them. Anything less than universal is subject to relative morality and therefore cannot be labeled unless you start a moral argument against certain actions that players do in their own games (I think Paul wrote, "Woe unto the impatient, for their use of nefarious codes shall rob them of eternal satisfaction of their doings. Verily I say unto ye, use not codes that thy games shall be pleasing.").

If you break the EULA, you could be considered cheating. My question is, what do I care if you break your own license agreement?

Obviously cheating in multiplayer is a different affair because you are adding interactions that most companies are not willing to govern. I think everyone agrees about multiplayer cheating--it's gaining an unfair advantage over another player.

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

 As an aside, most of the cheat code usage I've done in the OC was for spawning in dye pots and trap crafting components. Yeah, I know...... I'm shameless.

If I want a particular weapon for a PC, I'll open the tool set, make it, and put it in the module. I did that recently for a weapon master I was playing in the OC. In chapter 3, he "found" a heavy flail with; +3 enhancement, 1d4 sonic damage, 1d4 acid damage, and keen.  I named it, "Thumper".  ;^)

[AmstradHero]

As a modder/builder, I also agree with Andarian's post.  The modder (and the designers of the original game) have gone to a lot of effort to establish a level of difficulty that will be challenging but achievable with the tools that the player is given with the confines of the game itself. Players who choose to use cheats or other options are not getting the experience that the designers intended, ergo they are cheating. Yes, it's that simple.

If you as a player choose to use cheats or modify a module/game such that you experience it in a way that is different from the original design, if it's in a single player context and thus you're not affecting anyone else's game experience, by all means, go for it.  However, you should note that you are not getting intended experience that the development team worked so hard to create. You're getting something different. As a result, you're likely not going to get the same sense of satisfaction as the player that perserveres without those cheats and overcomes a challenge. If I go all the way back to the days when I was playing the original Doom, as soon as I used cheats, there was no challenge anymore. The enjoyment dropped because there was no difficulty, no challenge to overcome, no sense of achivement in victory. Mileage may vary of course, and you might just be playing for the experience rather than the overall package offered by the game, so yes, you're playing the way you want to play. However, you're not playing by the rules that were set forth by the designers of the game, so you're cheating.

Console commands are included for testing purposes, so that the designers/tester can quickly push their way through parts of the game to make sure that things are working properly.  If you modify a game/module such that the difficulty is changed, yes, you're cheating, because you're modifying the rules of the game that was originally given to you. If you give yourself extra money/experience/items through console commands, you're doing the same thing. Trying to say that it's not "cheating" is a fallacy. In a single player experience, no, you're not harming anyone else, but it's still "cheating" via any definition of the world because you're operating outside of the pre-defined rules of the game.

I think it's interesting to note is the "pro cheating" people appear to have an overwhelming need to justify their use of console commands (or the like) to people who disapprove of cheating. I don't approve or disapprove of cheating. If you wish to cheat, then that's fine, as long as you're doing it in a single player experience, as doing so in multiplayer ruins the level playing field of that everyone should abide by. However, if you attempt to say "I'm not cheating", while you're modding a game to add in extra special powerful items, or make yourself a few levels higher than you should/could be then you're only trying to delude yourself. If you don't play by the rules of the game, you're cheating, plain and simple. It's your choice, but it's still cheating by any definition of the word.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 07 mai 2011 - 10:31 .

[Elhanan]

I reckon can live with the notion that some here consider me a cheater. Guess I will have to tell my party, well if there was one, but there ain't as I am playing Solo.

And I will continue to do so, with your benevolent permission or not. I will continue to bypass the hauling of loot about while searching for stories, as I have 'gone to a lot of effort to craft a character worthy of the future challenge'. But Players needs, wishes, and desires are secondary to those of Modders; ain't they. Seen this kind of thinking before on many threads, too.

I will continue to change the rules as my purpose is to have fun; not try and figure out why creators never make mistakes.; just need to ask why there are 'magic need to hit monsters' in my way after that item strip. Right; was the intended challenge. Got it.

Now to be fair, most mod creators are more lenient in their thinking, as they want folks to see their stories; not wondering why some Vorpal blade was placed in that last store when all I have is strarting gold. And I will continue to give them feeback.

But for these omniscient morale guardians of solitary play that intended to have us make multiple trips to their fantasy Wally worlds, I may compromise and play their games as I wish; just simply skip the feedback part as it is tainted thru my deceptive choice.

[AmstradHero]

I would contend that offering advice or feedback to other players or developers/modders based on a playthrough that utilised a modded version of the adventure, or a character that has been altered through console commands provides limited benefit.

If a player is not playing by the rules that the developer set out, any feedback that is provided to them on the quality of the gameplay of their adventure if largely void because the player hasn't experienced the gameplay that the developer provided them with. This extends further and can also affect the atmosphere of the adventure as well. Say the designer created a journey in which you're always supposed to be struggling, forced to pick between whether you should decide to upgrade your equipment as much as possible, or sacrifice your own power for the sake of helping others. Really forcing the player to pick between being benevolent or focusing solely on their own well-being. If a player uses a console command to give themsleves the gold to be able to do both, they've immediately destroyed that atmosphere and are not getting the same experience as players who are forced to make those tough decisions. There are plenty of ways that gameplay and difficulty can be (or rather, should be) used to generate atmosphere and tension throughout a game. If a player is using cheats, they're not getting the originally intended experience.

Following this through, recommendations to other players about whether they should or should not play particular modules/games based on a playthrough utilising cheats are inherently flawed. The cheating player has not experienced the adventure as it was intended to be played, thus their comments and suggestions to other players are coloured by how they've modified the game.

Again, I'll reiterate that I'm not casting a moral judgement on anyone who uses mods/console commands to give themselves new items/gold/spells/experience/invulnerability or whatever. Heck, I've done it myself on occasion in order to finish mods that I just found too impossibly difficult no matter what I did. However, as soon as I started using those cheats, I recognise that my opinion on the game was flawed. The fact that I found the combat impossibly difficult is something I can comment on (and I did do so on the couple of occasions that it happened), but immediately after using cheats, there's very little I can comment on in terms of gameplay. I know I cheated, and I how no compunctions about saying that, but I have to recognise that it irrevocably changes the experience that the developer created.

If you're not following the rules of the game, you're cheating, plain and simple. Whether you consider that a "bad thing" is entirely your choice. But if you're being responsible and fair in sharing your opinion or thoughts on the game, your decision to not adhere to the rules of the game is something that you must take into consideration when telling others about it. As a modder/developer, I couldn't care less whether people use cheats in a single player context. If they wish to use cheats to make themselves ridiculously powerful and romp through the game, that's the player's choice. However, if they subsequently complain that the game was terrible, had no atmosphere and rate it poorly because it was so easy, that's when I'll take offense.

End note: Of course, sometimes less experienced developers make the mistake of making difficulty ridiculously hard because they know all the secrets of how to win and there's no hope for the "average" player to prevail. But this is poor design that the developer should be made aware of, and subsequently fix.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 08 mai 2011 - 12:50 .

[Elhanan]

Lowlander wrote...

The other side of this is that this isn't an entirely solo activity, once you start giving feedback/advice based on your gold cheat play through.   Like when I said  SoU wouldn't be my choice as a good newbie module as it was quite a grind at the beginning. Your opinion differed but what is that opinion worth, when you essentially skipped the grind with gold cheating.

Because I did not cheat until the replay, as I remarked earlier.

Almost every beginner campaign starts you off with nothing scrounging to afford minimimal mundane gear, let alone loading up on magic swords from the beginning, which also significantly alters balance.  Part of the satisfaction comes in overcoming those humble beginnings.  Maybe it doesn't for you, but I think you do a disservice to the new player when you recommend a module on the basis of your cheats and essentially serve as an example of cheating, making it that much more likely they will start cheating right from the beginning.

And again you missed the part where I post based on what was done, and how. If I used a gold cheat, I omit bonuses derived from said info, as I did with Dallo. Ask  him yourselves, as we had a long conversation on this very topic at the time.

Pls read fully, and avoid assumptions.

[Elhanan]

AmstradHero wrote...

I would contend that offering advice or feedback to other players or developers/modders based on a playthrough that utilised a modded version of the adventure, or a character that has been altered through console commands provides limited benefit.

If a player is not playing by the rules that the developer set out, any feedback that is provided to them on the quality of the gameplay of their adventure if largely void because the player hasn't experienced the gameplay that the developer provided them with. This extends further and can also affect the atmosphere of the adventure as well. Say the designer created a journey in which you're always supposed to be struggling, forced to pick between whether you should decide to upgrade your equipment as much as possible, or sacrifice your own power for the sake of helping others. Really forcing the player to pick between being benevolent or focusing solely on their own well-being. If a player uses a console command to give themsleves the gold to be able to do both, they've immediately destroyed that atmosphere and are not getting the same experience as players who are forced to make those tough decisions. There are plenty of ways that gameplay and difficulty can be (or rather, should be) used to generate atmosphere and tension throughout a game. If a player is using cheats, they're not getting the originally intended experience.

Following this through, recommendations to other players about whether they should or should not play particular modules/games based on a playthrough utilising cheats are inherently flawed. The cheating player has not experienced the adventure as it was intended to be played, thus their comments and suggestions to other players are coloured by how they've modified the game.

Again, I'll reiterate that I'm not casting a moral judgement on anyone who uses mods/console commands to give themselves new items/gold/spells/experience/invulnerability or whatever. Heck, I've done it myself on occasion in order to finish mods that I just found too impossibly difficult no matter what I did. However, as soon as I started using those cheats, I recognise that my opinion on the game was flawed. The fact that I found the combat impossibly difficult is something I can comment on (and I did do so on the couple of occasions that it happened), but immediately after using cheats, there's very little I can comment on in terms of gameplay. I know I cheated, and I how no compunctions about saying that, but I have to recognise that it irrevocably changes the experience that the developer created.

If you're not following the rules of the game, you're cheating, plain and simple. Whether you consider that a "bad thing" is entirely your choice. But if you're being responsible and fair in sharing your opinion or thoughts on the game, your decision to not adhere to the rules of the game is something that you must take into consideration when telling others about it. As a modder/developer, I couldn't care less whether people use cheats in a single player context. If they wish to use cheats to make themselves ridiculously powerful and romp through the game, that's the player's choice. However, if they subsequently complain that the game was terrible, had no atmosphere and rate it poorly because it was so easy, that's when I'll take offense.

End note: Of course, sometimes less experienced developers make the mistake of making difficulty ridiculously hard because they know all the secrets of how to win and there's no hope for the "average" player to prevail. But this is poor design that the developer should be made aware of, and subsequently fix.

As the solo player makes said rules, it ain't so plain or simple. And the above is your opinion; not fact. IMO.

And again, I try not discredit the mods for issues made by cheats. For confirmation, you need to ask the Mod crafters themselves, and verify posts made at the time. But it would seem more assumptions are made based on prior experiences without actually reading the full context of my posts. And that is prejudicial, I believe.

[AmstradHero]

Elhanan wrote...
And again, I try not discredit the mods for issues made by cheats. For confirmation, you need to ask the Mod
crafters themselves, and verify posts made at the time. But it would seem more assumptions are made based on prior experiences without actually reading the full context of my posts. And that is prejudicial, I
believe.

I was not making any judgement or assuming anything, I was contributing my point of view on the following comment:

Lowlander wrote...
I think you do a disservice to the new player when you recommend a module on the basis of your cheats and essentially serve as an example of cheating, making it that much more likely they will start cheating right from the beginning.

You seem to have interpreted my post to be attacking you, but I kept the terms of my post generic - if you've interpreted the "you" at the very end to mean you specifically as opposed to a generic "you" of anyone who uses cheats, then you've wholly misinterpreted the intention of my post.

However, I'll address you directly for the remainder of this post.

Elhanan wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...
If you're not following the rules of the game, you're cheating, plain and simple

As the solo player makes said rules, it ain't so plain or simple. And the above is your opinion; not fact. IMO.

I'm afraid you couldn't be more wrong here. The solo player does not make the rules, and to suggest as such is blatantly incorrect. A game (particularly a computer game) comes with a pre-defined a set of rules. In an FPS, it's things like how accurate a particular gun is, how fast it can fire, how much ammunition is in a clip. In an RTS, it's how much and how long it takes for a particular building or unit to be created, or the tech prerequisites for creating new units/building. In a D&D setting this is things like how many hit points a particular class is given per level, how much experience is granted fromkilling a particular monster or disarming a particular trap.

These things are all the pre-defined rules that come with the game. If you do anything to change these rules or otherwise do not abide by them, you are cheating. That is the definition of cheating, and to claim otherwise is utterly ridiculous. Let's go to a definitive source on the English language, the Oxford dictionary: "to gain an unfair advantage by deception or breaking rules, esp. in a game or examination." By giving yourself extra resources through a console command, you have met the very definition of cheating.

Unwittingly or not, you're actually making the situation look worse through your actions. You refuse to admit that you are cheating, yet you have stated that you deliberately break or subvert the constraints and restrictions placed upon you in games/mod. That's cheating. Your refusal to admit this suggests that you believe you should have the right to operate outside of the restrictions that the designers chose to create, and that the majority of players adhere to.

As I've stated before, I honestly don't care if you (or anyone else) cheat. But to do so and then claim "I'll do whatever I like and it's not cheating" only lends weight to the argument that cheating and cheaters are "bad". You cheat in some mods/games because you find it more fun. Big deal. Just don't try and claim that you don't cheat.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 08 mai 2011 - 07:06 .

[Shadooow]

Well said AmstradHero but what about modifications. You said that in D&D games its how many hitpoints have classes. I guess its correct, but we ll know how rangers suck and there is plenty of modifications on vault that boost him per 3.5 rules. If you install this into your game its cheating or modding?

[Elhanan]

The rules for RPG's are guidelines, open to the application and interpretation of those playing the game. Hence there are variations, House rules, etc for all and everyone of those that play the game.

In a solo game, those guidelines are determined by the Player. While the rules designer may have had another idea or intention, the rules are open to being changed by those actually playing the game, and in this case: the solo Player.

Modifié par Elhanan, 08 mai 2011 - 11:24 .

[Shia Luck]

[quote]Lowlander wrote...

[quote]Shia Luck wrote...
I don't care what word you use. I do care which meaning. Cheat has multiple meanings. When used about SP computer games the meaning is very different to it's other meanings.
[/quote]

We agree up to this point. Cheat has a different meaning in computer games vs sexual infidelity, or misrepresentations on your taxes. Obviously. 

I never said they were the same thing and I have always indicated that in the context of computer games it  doesn't have the same meaning, nor does it have to. [/quote]

Actually no. You have consistently used the definition of cheating in MP while talking about cheating in SP. You get indignant about cheating because you perceive someone has been hurt by an SP cheater, namely yourself. You also equate it with cheating in an academic exam.


[quote]Lowlander wrote...

I shouldn't be surprised in this
shortcut, instant gratifications, cheating is OK if you don't get
caught, society that so many just use cheat codes to pimp their
characters rather than deal with the constraints of the game. But this
Attitude makes me sick.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sick.png[/smilie]

... Heck these days people are more proud
of themselves when the get good results from academic cheating:

http://www.cheatingc...mic-dishonesty/
[/quote]

[quote]Lowlander wrote...

There are no rules in English that indicate a word must have the same meaning in multiple contexts, much to the contrary, almost the entire vocabulary of english is very context sensitive. [/quote]

I am arguing for muliple meanings. Trying to claim I am not is a strawman argument. I strongly suggest you learn to read other people's posts and use the quote button. This whole thing did start because you were insistent the OP should use unarmed when they clearly asked for a dual wield kama build.

[quote]Lowlander wrote...
It is IMO downright silly to argue that people can't use the common term for cheating in single player games, just like they have for decades on the basis of a complete nonsense argument. [/quote]

The argument is right there on page 1. If it is nonsense, prove it. Calling it nonsense when your own argument is to invent things I have not said is ..in fact, a much better example of cheating. So stop cheating lowlander and argue honestly by using the quote button, because a forum is an MP environment so I have every right to get indignant about your attitude..



[quote]AmstradHero wrote...

As a modder/builder, I also agree
with Andarian's post.  The modder (and the designers of the original
game) have gone to a lot of effort to establish a level of difficulty
that will be challenging but achievable with the tools that the player is given with the confines of the game itself. [/quote]

...acheivable
for the majority of people, yes. We will always be able to find
examples of people who need to "cheat" to make it acheivable for them,
or choose to cheat to make it enjoyable for them.

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
Players who choose to use cheats or other options are not getting the experience that the designers intended, ergo they are cheating. Yes, it's that simple. [/quote]

So, your definition of cheating is to change something? So I would be cheating when i wear the jacket from my skirt suit with a pair of jeans instead of the skirt the designer intended?

Btw,
the only explicit comment bioware have made about "cheating" is on the
old site where in the "For Players" section they list exactly how to do
it under the title "console commands".

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
If
you as a player choose to use cheats or modify a module/game such that
you experience it in a way that is different from the original design, if it's in a single player context and thus you're not affecting anyone else's game experience, by all means, go for it.  However, you should note that you are not getting intended experience that the development team worked so hard to create. You're getting something different. [/quote]

Ahhhhhh so the bolded bit is required for someone else to take a moral stace against this type of cheating? I completely agree.

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...

As a result, you're likely not going to get the same sense of
satisfaction as the player that perserveres without those cheats and
overcomes a challenge.[/quote]

While I agree on a personal level
and always play my first playthrough without modification, I don't think
you can apply this to anyone but yourself. I think that is very
dependent on the desires and abilities of the person playing the game.

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
Console
commands are included for testing purposes, so that the
designers/tester can quickly push their way through parts of the game to
make sure that things are working properly. [/quote]

Ummm, see my point about how they are listed in the "For Players" section of the old website. I don't see how you can prove they were intended only for designers.

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...

If you modify a game/module such that the difficulty is changed, yes,
you're cheating, because you're modifying the rules of the game that was
originally given to you. If you give yourself extra
money/experience/items through console commands, you're doing the same
thing. Trying to say that it's not "cheating" is a fallacy.[/quote]

A
fallacy? How? Let's be clear, the argument here is whether anyone has a
moral justification to denigrate someone else for SP cheating, as
Lowlander is doing. It's been expressed in quite a few different ways,
one of which said "it is not cheating", but that statement uses the mp
definition, a sentiment you clearly agree with.

[quote]AmstradHero wrote...
...if you attempt to say "I'm not cheating", while you're modding a game to add in extra special powerful items, or make yourself a few levels higher than you should/could be then
you're only trying to delude yourself. If you don't play by the rules
of the game, you're cheating, plain and simple. It's your choice, but
it's still cheating by any definition of the word.
[/quote]

So you have to gain an advantage to cheat?

So if I use console commands, to drop my level and thereby change the experience the designers intended, I am not cheating? 
Because if you agree with that then all the stuff about designer intent
and who console commands are designed for is irrelevant.

[quote]Tybae wrote...

[quote]Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

 @ Lowlander

For
the record. I've been playing chess since the early 1960's, (actually
won a few, too) and D&D since the late 1970's. Not once have I ever
cheated while playing ANY game with other people.

I use the
command console occasionally to enhance my game experience when I play
NWN in SP. Do I consider it cheating myself out of some level of fun?
No. I've played through the OC, and other SP mods, many times without
using the cheat codes, and I know the difference. Do I care that some
others view it as cheating? No. Everyone's entitled to their own
opinion. What I do care about is when someone attaches derogatory labels
to others simply because the others don't hold the same beliefs or
agree with that person's opinion. If you want to play your game without
using the cheat codes that's fine. If you want to believe that using
them is cheating, that's fine too. But to insult other people just
because they don't agree with you is arrogant and self-righteous, and
shows signs of having serious control issues. That's the reason I've had
this discussion with you. Not because I care one way or the other what
anyone thinks about using the cheat codes in SP. Use them or not. It's
your business. But don't insult other people simply because they
disagree with you. That's just wrong.

Gregor
[/quote]

I'd just like to say how much I agree with the above statement.  Well said Gregor. 

[/quote]

Yes, very well said.

Have fun

EDIT:
[quote]Lowlander wrote...

[quote]Elhanan wrote...

But for
these omniscient morale guardians of solitary play that intended to have
us make multiple trips to their fantasy Wally worlds, I may compromise
and play their games as I wish; just simply skip the feedback part as it
is tainted thru my deceptive choice.[/quote]


The other side of this is that this isn't an entirely solo activity, once you start giving feedback/advice based on your gold cheat play through.  
[/quote]

I suggest you quote where Elhanan has done that. Or just stop accusing people of things they have not said or done.

Modifié par Shia Luck, 08 mai 2011 - 11:47 .

[Shia Luck]

oops *blush*

Modifié par Shia Luck, 08 mai 2011 - 11:45 .

[AndarianTD]

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

It seems the base controversy isn't over actual cheating, but the definition of cheating. So, for the sake of discussion, let's use the "base" defintions found in the wikipedia.

CHEATING: Cheating refers to the overt or covert breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation. The rules infringed may be explicit, or they may be from an unwritten code of conduct based on morality, ethics or custom, making the identification of cheating a subjective process...

Okay.... so how would you apply the concept of cheating to a single player version of NWN, using these definitions of the concept?

I have to challenge the assumptions of this approach from the outset. Not only do I think this is the wrong definition to start from, but so does Wikipedia. If you look at the disambiguation link in the above entry for "cheat," the first alternative meaning listed takes you to a page specifically titled Cheating in Video Games, which starts as follows:

Cheating in video games involves a video game player using non-standard methods for creating an advantage beyond normal gameplay...

While this definition admittedly needs improvement (even the Wiki callout says so), its very presence emphasizes two important points that have been made by other commenters here. The first is that cheating is recognized as having a more specific and specialized meaning in the context of computer games, relative to other uses. The second is that the reference to "non-standard methods" implies the existence of "standard methods," aka rules, from which they are a deviation.

I also think we should keep in mind that for decades now we've seen books, columns, magazines and websites dedicated to publishing "game cheats" and "cheat codes." Gaming culture long ago established an understanding of what "cheating" means in the context of a computer game that lacks the strong moral stigma it may have in other contexts, such as cheating qua "marital infidelity."

Modifié par AndarianTD, 08 mai 2011 - 12:23 .

[AmstradHero]

Shia Luck wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...
Console commands are included for testing purposes, so that the designers/tester can quickly push their way through parts of the game to make sure that things are working properly.

Ummm, see my point about how they are listed in the "For Players" section of the old website. I don't see how you can prove they were intended only for designers.

Ask anyone in the game industry why cheats are in games. Sure, they're left in there so players can use them, but their primary purpose is to aid development and testing. Some games have items that only exist for testing purposes and can only be gained via console commands and never through actual play - and are so blatantly overpowered that they were never intended to be obtained by the player. I'm afraid this is game design 101, so I'm sorry, but your argument here holds absolutely no weight.

Shia Luck wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...
If you modify a game/module such that the difficulty is changed, yes, you're cheating, because you're modifying the rules of the game that was originally given to you. If you give yourself extra money/experience/items through console commands, you're doing the same thing. Trying to say that it's not "cheating" is a fallacy.

A fallacy? How? Let's be clear, the argument here is whether anyone has a moral justification to denigrate someone else for SP cheating, as Lowlander is doing. It's been expressed in quite a few different ways, one of which said "it is not cheating", but that statement uses the mp definition, a sentiment you clearly agree with.

Incorrect. I have stated repeatedly that I do not wish to, nor will, denigrate anyone who uses cheats in a single player context. However, if you're using cheats in an MP context, you are unfairly gaining an advantage against other players who are playing by the rules - this is bad behaviour. Anyone who disagrees with that most certainly deserves widespread derision.

Playing in a single player context where you're only affecting your play experience and are not harmfing anyone else's play experience (taking into considerations my previous provisos regarding feedback and reviews/opinions delivered to other players) is perfectly fine. However, it is still cheating by the definition of the word. My issue is with people saying "I'm not cheating because it's only single player." No, it's still cheating, it's just not affecting anyone. Therein lies the difference.

Shia Luck wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...
...if you attempt to say "I'm not cheating", while you're modding a game to add in extra special powerful items, or make yourself a few levels higher than you should/could be then you're only trying to delude yourself. If you don't play by the rules of the game, you're cheating, plain and simple. It's your choice, but it's still cheating by any definition of the word.

So you have to gain an advantage to cheat?

So if I use console commands, to drop my level and thereby change the experience the designers intended, I am not cheating? Because if you agree with that then all the stuff about designer intent and who console commands are designed for is irrelevant.

If we're going by the explicit definition of the word cheat in the English language, yes, you do have to gain an advantage to cheat. If you choose to deliberately disadvantage yourself, then you're modifying the game experience, of that there is no doubt, but technically, you're not cheating. You're also still changing the designer's intended experience, and I'd argue that potentially you've compromised your ability to provide objective and valid feedback on the game.

I am not ascribing any moral judgement to using cheats in single player. I've used cheats. I have no problem with saying that. Suggesting that single player cheats are "bad" is not really an argument I consider valid. But to say that you're not cheating because you're just "making house rules" is something that must be considered equally invalid.

If you break a law, but no one is harmed by that action, and no one finds out about it, you've still broken the law.

[jmlzemaggo]

In my opinion cheating is the only approch for truly not cheating... only later on.
Those who never cheat can't talk about cheating.
I'm down here to try everything. So my brain requires. Then only I'm allowed to see if it fits me. Not to mention, than any experiment changes you, so no experimentation means... you can't talk about cheating. Unless seing it as a religion from the start. Which is not my religion. 
After years of cheating I know better today why I'm no cheater anymore.
Since I became a liar...   
(That last one is only for the joke.)
 
Because I'm having fun at the moment only if playing fair, maybe only finally discovering the amazing balance and genius of our NWN.
Until I cheat again.
No rules, never rules.

But truth, always truth. 

I truly believe games are made to experiment things... you maybe better not do, or could do, in real life.
And, last but not least, having the opportunity to understand why. By trying it. 
A gift.
And when I see a gift... I rarely resist.
Some do, I heard... 

Is there only one side of cheating I don't like? Yes, when you forget you're playing and start using it for real life...
Gaming is enoug as a cheat already.
Quite a dangerous one actually... :innocent:

One last one? Okay, okay, if you insist: I recently playtested one of the greatest modules of all. 
I didn't cheat. 
And I think I don't need to explain why to any of you, true NWN lovers. <3

A game is a playground for life. 
Do you know any other opportunity to feel what it is to be evil for instance? 
Without necessarily killing your stepmother I mean...

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 08 mai 2011 - 12:44 .

[AndarianTD]

Shia Luck wrote...

Anyway, I got a question for everyone. If I play HotU, for example, and I use console commands to spawn in low level magic items and reduce my ability scores making my character much weaker, have I cheated?

I think so, yes, for the reasons that I explained in my first post on the thread. I don't think that cheating is necessarily about "gaining advantage," although that's overwhelmingly the most common motivation for it. I think it's about breaking the rules -- independently of whether the intention in doing so is to gain an advantage, assume a handicap, or neither and something else entirely.

I also think that the idea that "cheating" requires gaining a competitive advantage over others -- and that consequently, there is no such thing as cheating in an SP game -- is, with all due respect, just plain wrong. As i pointed out [above], the Wikipedia definition that cited it is the incorrect entry for a discussion about computer gaming. However, it's not even correct on its own merits, since as a general definition it fails to account for obvious counterexamples such as "cheating at solitare" and "cheating on a diet."

Modifié par AndarianTD, 08 mai 2011 - 01:55 .

[Shia Luck]

AmstradHero wrote...

Shia Luck wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...
Console commands are included for testing purposes, so that the designers/tester can quickly push their way through parts of the game to make sure that things are working properly.

Ummm, see my point about how they are listed in the "For Players" section of the old website. I don't see how you can prove they were intended only for designers.

Ask anyone in the game industry why cheats are in games. Sure, they're left in there so players can use them, but their primary purpose is to aid development and testing.... I'm afraid this is game design 101, so I'm sorry, but your argument here holds absolutely no weight.

I disagree. You yourself state they're left there for players to use them so therefore they are NOT ONLY for designer's use. Their primary purpose is irrelevent so long as one of their purposes is for players to use them. I'm afraid that's logic 101, so I'm sorry, it is your argument that leads to a false conclusion.

AmstradHero wrote...

Shia Luck wrote...
So you have to gain an advantage to cheat?

So if I use console commands, to drop my level and thereby change the experience the designers intended, I am not cheating? Because if you agree with that then all the stuff about designer intent and who console commands are designed for is irrelevant.

If we're going by the explicit definition of the word cheat in the English language, yes, you do have to gain an advantage to cheat. If you choose to deliberately disadvantage yourself, then you're modifying the game experience, of that there is no doubt, but technically, you're not cheating.

OK. So,  I can assume you agree then that designer intent and the existence of console commands is not part of any definition or rationale of cheating?

AmstradHero wrote...
You're also still changing the designer's intended experience, and I'd argue that potentially you've compromised your ability to provide objective and valid feedback on the game.

Agreed. Cheating while playtesting seems very counter productive to me.

AmstradHero wrote...

Shia Luck wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...
If you
modify a game/module such that the difficulty is changed, yes, you're
cheating, because you're modifying the rules of the game that was
originally given to you. If you give yourself extra
money/experience/items through console commands, you're doing the same
thing. Trying to say that it's not "cheating" is a fallacy.

A
fallacy? How? Let's be clear, the argument here is whether anyone has a
moral justification to denigrate someone else for SP cheating, as
Lowlander is doing. It's been expressed in quite a few different ways,
one of which said "it is not cheating", but that statement uses the mp
definition, a sentiment you clearly agree with.

Incorrect.
I have stated repeatedly that I do not wish to, nor will, denigrate
anyone who uses cheats in a single player context.

"Incorrect"????  Sorry, did you see that as me accusing you of that position? My apologies if you thought that but that is not what I meant. I was explaining what the actual issue of this discussion is because while it's always interesting to hear people's views about designer intent etc, such things aren't relevant to cheating. Cheating, if it is an MP environment it deserves derision, if it's in an SP environment, it deserves no derision. That is what I think you agree with and what I and gregor and others are arguing against lowlander about.

[Shia Luck]

AndarianTD wrote...

Shia Luck wrote...

Anyway, I got a question for everyone. If I play HotU, for example, and I use console commands to spawn in low level magic items and reduce my ability scores making my character much weaker, have I cheated?

I think so, yes, for the reasons that I explained in my first post on the thread. I don't think that cheating is necessarily about "gaining advantage," although that's overwhelmingly the most common motivation for it. I think it's about breaking the rules -- independently of whether the intention in doing so is to gain an advantage, assume a handicap, or neither and something else entirely.

You're the first person to take that opinion. It is the only logical one if you're claiming there are rules and designer intent that are relevent. 

AndarianTD wrote...
I also think that the idea that "cheating" requires gaining a competitive advantage over others --

MP environment?

AndarianTD wrote...
...and that consequently, there is no such thing as cheating in an SP game -- is, with all due respect, just plain wrong.

Ahhh, I see.... so you define others as NPCs in the game?

[AndarianTD]

AmstradHero wrote...

Ask anyone in the game industry why cheats are in games. Sure, they're left in there so players can use them, but their primary purpose is to aid development and testing. Some games have items that only exist for testing purposes and can only be gained via console commands and never through actual play - and are so blatantly overpowered that they were never intended to be obtained by the player. I'm afraid this is game design 101, so I'm sorry, but your argument here holds absolutely no weight.

I'm afraid that I have to strongly agree with AmstradHero here (as well as with just about everything else he's written on the thread). With all due respect, one of my basic problems with the line of argument that seems to have led to it is the extent to which it evinces the denial of what seem to me to be obvious facts, and widespread common sense and common usage regarding the meaning of the word "cheating." I think this is a case in point.

Everyone who plays NWN and has used the console knows full well that it steps outside the game's ruleset and is not intended for normal player play. It was created for testing and debugging purposes, and to give meta-gaming power to a Dungeon Master in DM-based multiplayer play. (It bears keeping in mind that unlike many other CRPGs, NWN1 was actually designed to facilitate DM-mediated MP play as well as SP play.) That's why most console commands start with dm_, and why you have to explicitly enter a "~DebugMode" command to get access to them.

For players to use the NWN console to modify the play experience created and intended by the game designer (other than to fix bugs) is to break the rules -- that is, to "cheat." That's not a crime, but it is so straightforwardly obvious to me that I have a hard time understanding why some folks seem to object to identifying it for what it is.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 08 mai 2011 - 03:08 .

[AndarianTD]

Shia Luck wrote...

AndarianTD wrote...

I don't think that cheating is necessarily about "gaining advantage," although that's overwhelmingly the most common motivation for it. I think it's about breaking the rules -- independently of whether the intention in doing so is to gain an advantage, assume a handicap, or neither and something else entirely.

You're the first person to take that opinion. It is the only logical one if you're claiming there are rules and designer intent that are relevent.

I think that's right.
 

Shia Luck wrote...

AndarianTD wrote...

I also think that the idea that "cheating" requires gaining a competitive advantage over others --

MP environment?

What about it? I didn't say that it can't involve gaining a competitive advantage over others, only that it doesn't necessarily require it.

Shia Luck wrote...

AndarianTD wrote...

...and that consequently, there is no such thing as cheating in an SP game -- is, with all due respect, just plain wrong.

Ahhh, I see.... so you define others as NPCs in the game?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Can you clarify?

Modifié par AndarianTD, 08 mai 2011 - 03:09 .

[Shia Luck]

AndarianTD wrote...
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Can you clarify?

I
was attempting to clarify and realised I had misread your post as to
what you were saying was wrong. My apologies. I completely understand
your position and agree it is a logical one. My disagreement is with
those who think there is a moral problem about cheating in sp games,
and, in a purely philosophical sense, pointing out the poor logic being
used.

Lowlander wrote...
Cheating Definition:

I have always indicated I was speaking of the term as used in computer games, as it has been used in single player computer games for decades, where no secondary party need be taken advantage of for cheating to occur. One that simply involves subverting rules, using exploits to gain advantage/take short cuts. 

As you can perhaps now see from Andarian's posts. It's either about rules and breaking them in any way OR about gaining an advantage. There is no logic in defiing it as requiring rules except that which Andarian has used. If you take Andarian's approach, then you can claim the cheater has not seen the design concept. Your issue is about the fact they get an advantage over a computer game. Like I said, your argument of being morally superior is the same as someone saying "I play on hardcore and you play on normal so I am better than you and will not respect you."

Lowlander wrote...

This is the definition of cheating in this context for decades.

Another point you are inconsistent about. You try to claim that a meaning has validity because of it's tradition and denigrate me for using a dictionary definition of cheating. Then later you claim that lanaguage is evolving all the time, which is a counter to your own arguments. You can't have it every way.

Lowlander wrote...
Potential Consequences of Cheating:

Privately:
If you do the above privately, tell no one a give no indication it was ever done, it is still cheating in the context of computer games, but it is inconsequential to the rest of the world. It absolutely doesn't matter to anyone but the cheater. It may deprive the cheater of a sense of satisfaction because they know they cheated. It does for me, but I can't speak for everyone on this, the function of the brains reward center is not universal.

This is the first time you have admitted how someone else plays their SP game should be inconsequetial to you. I would be glad you have finally accepted this if the next bit didn't contradict it when you then denigrate and besmirch the SP cheater.

Lowlander wrote...
Socially:
Once you bring your private cheating, into a public space there are more potential consequences.  The one that I object to, is experienced players suggesting cheating and serving as an example of cheating to new players, The threads (other than this one) where I made comments on this, were threads for people new to the game. Indoctrinating them into cheating before they even have a chance to play clean.  This is my main objection to taking private cheating public.  But there are also other issues, as having a common context for discussing anything to do with the game (which is what we do here).

An mp environment, yes.

Lowlander wrote...
When I am talking to a cheater, what is the weight of their opinion on anything if they just take shortcuts routinely.

Because we are all clear that in MP evironments, forums etc, cheating is not something you should do. Just because in an SP game someone may cheat does not mean that they lie on forums about it. You are assuming that about them. You are saying "once a cheater, always a cheater, even in very different environments", which is why I keep saying you are confusing mp and SP environments. Your response, the consequences if you like,  to both situations is the same. Denigration of the sp cheater. 

So I repeat, you still do not have any right to feel morally superior or accuse SP cheaters of anything as you have been doing throughout both threads.