244 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

AndarianTD wrote...

"Gave my tale to the Vault?" Since when? My "tale" is my own intellectual property and hasn't been "given" to anyone, thank you very much. My work, Sir, is not a gift.

And for your information, my mods are hosted on my own website, not on the Vault; what my Vault pages contain are
links to those downloads. That happens to be Vault policy for authors who want to retain control of their work rather than "give it away" -- as I happen to know very well, since I helped Maximus write it.

My bad; appears I may not have played any of your works, or at least never completed one. In any event, you likely received no feeback, nor are likely to get any now. Be happy and content.

Signed - Balaam

Modifié par Elhanan, 10 mai 2011 - 01:10 .

[CBrachyrhynchos]

AmstradHero wrote...

I'm AmstradHero, and I am a cheater. I don't cheat all the time, and I don't cheat in multiplayer, but in certain single player experiences, I am a cheater.

And you know what? I don't care. Why do you?

Oh yes, this. I cheat at sp electronic games, crosswords, sudoku, and chess puzzles. I am a cheater, and I really don't care.

[CBrachyrhynchos]

Elhanan wrote...
So in this example, the module is the DM because it tells your story, or you remain to be the DM from afar? Strange; seems I must have either have a grunch of DM's stored on my old computer, or you may have failed to notice the flaws in your story, and that we fixed them. Must have stepped away for a slice, I guess.

We have chess, shogi, and go puzzles that were published over 800 years ago. So yeah, the idea that someone might set the rules for a puzzle and then publish it for the world to see isn't a radically new idea.

[Tybae]

Skelhorn wrote...

To cheat or not to cheat? To break the rules or abide by them?

To my mind this age old argument comes down to our definition of these terms.

Therein lies the truth.  You can't properly define anything that's subjective, just like cheating in SP.  Well said sir.

[Elhanan]

CBrachyrhynchos wrote...

We have chess, shogi, and go puzzles that were published over 800 years ago. So yeah, the idea that someone might set the rules for a puzzle and then publish it for the world to see isn't a radically new idea.

Does chess require a DM? Are there varied rules for solo play? One may cheat in them, but the comparson ends there for me. Apples; oranges.

[Elhanan]

Tybae wrote...

Skelhorn wrote...

To cheat or not to cheat? To break the rules or abide by them?

To my mind this age old argument comes down to our definition of these terms.

Therein lies the truth.  You can't properly define anything that's subjective, just like cheating in SP.  Well said sir.

Missed one: Which rules to choose?

[Tybae]

Elhanan wrote...

Tybae wrote...

Skelhorn wrote...

To cheat or not to cheat? To break the rules or abide by them?

To my mind this age old argument comes down to our definition of these terms.

Therein lies the truth.  You can't properly define anything that's subjective, just like cheating in SP.  Well said sir.

Missed one: Which rules to choose?

No I didn't and I'd prefer you didn't put words in my mouth. 

[Elhanan]

Tybae wrote...

Missed one: Which rules to choose?

No I didn't and I'd prefer you didn't put words in my mouth. 

Would not think of it, though you might consider thought before speech.

I was attempting to include the above statement in the former one you quoted, and replied to earlier. If I was including words, it was to that previous idea. But again, reading, context, comprehension, are not up to chips on shoulders.

*worries for the humanoid race*

The main idea is wider than remaining within the rules of the mod; they must also include which rules are chosen to govern the game.

Modifié par Elhanan, 10 mai 2011 - 04:29 .

[Shadooow]

AmstradHero wrote...

It's like the Fighting Fantasy books - sure you could just go "oh, I have to fight... well, I just win this fight automatically." You were free to do that, I'm sure I did on some occasions while reading them. But that was cheating, because I wasn't playing by the established rules of the game/book - thus ruining the excitement of going around and defeating a dangerous creature while battered and bruised after my last fight.

Yeah, I still got these books, good times really. And I cheated in there too sometimes too, like find out what was other options in conversation etc.

Anyway I think u totally described the point in your posts. Couldnt agree more,

[Elhanan]

AmstradHero wrote...

... I'm not claiming ultimate authority over the player. As a mod designer, I don't care if players use console commands to play my mods. But if they do so, they're not playing as I designed. They're not adhering to the rules of D&D, nor the setting that I created for them. Plainly put, they're cheating. I don't care if they cheat. Not one iota. But to say that they aren't cheating is an untenable position.

To rearrange it a bit: As a mod designer, I don't care if players use console commands to play my mods. But if they do so, they're not playing as I designed, nor the setting that I created for them.

I agree with this. I am not playing the mod as designed; nor the setting you made. I am altering both for my own pleasure, enjoyment, and preference of rules.

But the whole business of not adhering to the rules of D&D is bogus. I simply choose differerent rules than you; does not make it into anything else. If I adhere to my new set of rules, I am not cheating, but may be cheating if I violate them.

Seems sound to me.

Modifié par Elhanan, 10 mai 2011 - 11:40 .

[CainMaris]

Elhanan wrote...

But the whole business of not adheringing to the rules of D&D is bogus. I simply choose differerent rules than you; does not make it into anything else.

And that's pretty much the bottom line for me.

Y'all can define the heck out of what constitutes The Game, what isFun and Enjoyable, and what is Proper Play for yourselves.

I'm going to do likewise.

When you try to tell me that my choices are wrong, and I'm a bad thing (call it cheater if you like, seriously wev), and that your opinion is somehow relevant to me, I'm going to be mostly  amused by the self-importance and generally ignore you. At least you aren't inflicting yourself on politics. Yet. I hope.

It moves from ridiculous to annoying when you choke out a thread where someone was looking for information and advice with your arrogated authority, and when the recent post/last reply entry in this forum is taken up for days on end by Very Important, Grown-Up People (just ask them) busily telling everyone else What Is and Is Not Correct about what other people are doing with a massively customizable, single-player game.

There's a specific forum for multi-player and persistent worlds. Any shreds of merit in a discussion of  "It's Cheating and You're All a Bunch Of Cheating Cheaters" are of relevance there, not here.

Can we stop feeding the trolls, now?

[Shia Luck]

Skelhorn wrote...

Ah but did you notice how I cunningly brought alignment into the thread?

All I need now is Wizards v Sorcerers and we have the perfect storm.

Here goes:
"Lawful Wizards who cheat are better than Chaotic Sorcerers who don't." [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angel.png[/smilie]

*laughing madly*  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie] ..

Skelhorn wrote...
'Cheating' means to break the rules. From what I can see there is common understanding and agreement on this. The real issue then is on how we define 'the rules'.

In the one camp - lets call these guys 'Chaotics' - are those that define the rules as being dynamic, flexible, yielding. Not so much rules as 'whatever I feel is right at the time'. The only rule is that there are no rules. The logic of this argument seems irrefutable. By defining the rules in this way it becomes impossible to break them, impossible to cheat.

In the other camp - the 'Lawfuls' - are those that define the rules more specifically. For them the rules are those that are more commonly accepted as universal, as in chess, cards or marriage. Or those rules defined by the game designer or module creator. Using cheat codes or any other technique outside those defined by this criteria would certainly be breaking the rules and considered cheating.

So who is right?

Both are. Both camps are correct according to their own definition of the rules.

While I agree, and giggle, at this. You did miss one. Not eveything is a dichotmy, no? (I would claim there is always a third answer but... I'll try stay on topic *grin*) .... You forgot the neutrals *grin*.

The neutrals define a set of rules that apply only to that game, changing specific things, but once started, not changing those rules at all. *grin*

Skelhorn wrote...
Well this is philosophy. Or as we like to say 'alignment'. ...

It is interesting to think how much our perception is determined by our perspective. How our experiences are shaped by our definitions of ourselves and our world that we hold to be true, but that in reality are subjective beliefs.

Well, we've had Death Of The Author  *grin* ... Is it now Death of the CPRG developer? Or Death of the Alignment System? *grin*

(Link for anyone who doesnt know wtf I am talking about...

Modifié par Shia Luck, 10 mai 2011 - 10:57 .

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

 Okay, so this thread has been debating cheating or not in SP mode of NWN. About the only thing we've all agreed upon is that cheating is only possible when someone breaks the rules. I've been doing a small bit of reading, and I've come up with a few interesting tidbits.

Within the context of NWN, since that's the game we're all playing, there are no rules that can be broken by the average SP individual. I spent some time perusing the NWN manual that came with my game, and there are no "rules" listed in it. There are references to "rules", and they indicate that the rules are hard coded into the game engine, and should not be "worried about" by the player. Here's the references with page numbers.

NWN manual wrote...

Game Options allow you to tweak the game difficulty and changeother gameplay options. We recommend most people play thegame on the default settings, since the game is evenly balanced atthese settings. If you are an experienced Dungeons & Dragons play-er, you might consider selecting the “Hardcore D&D” option. Thissetting implements some of the more complex aspects of the rulessystem.  (page 22)
Neverwinter Nights is based on the 3rd Edition of the Dungeons& Dragons roleplaying game....The Dungeons & Dragons rules set has been carefully designed tofacilitate your travels, and Neverwinter Nights takes full advantageof that flexibility. The convenience of a computer roleplayinggame means that the majority of rules and functions are handledbehind the scenes, leaving you free to enjoy your adventures with-out worrying about rules. (page 38)

Now, more interesting than that is the issue about using the console commands to do the "cheating". Contrary to what someone said, they are mentioned in the manual, and they do not refer to them as "cheat codes". They are simply console commands. So they are not "hidden" or "secret", and are not only intended for use by developers. The manual even explains how to bring up the console, and includes a short list of some of the commands you can use. Again, here's the reference with page number.

NWN manual wrote...
Command line To use a command line action, you can bring up the console usingthe tilde key. You can also enter console commands into the chatwidow by prefacing them with a double pound “##”.
MAPPING A COMMAND LINE TO THE QUICKBARTo map a command to the quickbar, right click in the quickbarslot to bring up a radial menu. Select the map command lineoption. Enter a label. Then enter the command prefaced with ##.
COMMON COMMANDS
(there was a short list of commands here, but they didn't transfer correctly. If you want to see them, open your manual and look for yourself)
(page 171)

There's a bone, ya'll chew on it for a while if you like.

Modifié par Gregor Wyrmbane, 11 mai 2011 - 04:26 .

[Elhanan]

Lowlander wrote...

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

Now, more interesting than that is the issue about using the console commands to do the "cheating". Contrary to what someone said, they are mentioned in the manual, and they do not refer to them as "cheat codes". They are simply console commands. So they are not "hidden" or "secret", and are not only intended for use by developers. The manual even explains how to bring up the console, and includes a short list of some of the commands you can use. Again, here's the reference with page number.

Those instructions are for using the command line in the DM client. If you try to follow those instructions as given in the regular game, nothing will happen.

But since you DM yourself, naturally you play the game int he DM client, Right?

So the same commands are 'cheats' because they are reached using another method for the Player client? Why am I not surprised at this logic. And you seem to omit the ref made to there being more than a single set of rules from which to choose.

[Shadooow]

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

 Okay, so this thread has been debating cheating or not in SP mode of NWN. About the only thing we've all agreed upon is that cheating is only possible when someone breaks the rules. I've been doing a small bit of reading, and I've come up with a few interesting tidbits.

Within the context of NWN, since that's the game we're all playing, there are no rules that can be broken by the average SP individual. I spent some time perusing the NWN manual that came with my game, and there are no "rules" listed in it. There are references to "rules", and they indicate that the rules are hard coded into the game engine, and should not be "worried about" by the player. Here's the references with page numbers.

NWN manual wrote...

Game Options allow you to tweak the game difficulty and changeother gameplay options. We recommend most people play thegame on the default settings, since the game is evenly balanced atthese settings. If you are an experienced Dungeons & Dragons play-er, you might consider selecting the “Hardcore D&D” option. Thissetting implements some of the more complex aspects of the rulessystem.  (page 22)
Neverwinter Nights is based on the 3rd Edition of the Dungeons& Dragons roleplaying game....The Dungeons & Dragons rules set has been carefully designed tofacilitate your travels, and Neverwinter Nights takes full advantageof that flexibility. The convenience of a computer roleplayinggame means that the majority of rules and functions are handledbehind the scenes, leaving you free to enjoy your adventures with-out worrying about rules. (page 38)

Now, more interesting than that is the issue about using the console commands to do the "cheating". Contrary to what someone said, they are mentioned in the manual, and they do not refer to them as "cheat codes". They are simply console commands. So they are not "hidden" or "secret", and are not only intended for use by developers. The manual even explains how to bring up the console, and includes a short list of some of the commands you can use. Again, here's the reference with page number.

NWN manual wrote...
Command line To use a command line action, you can bring up the console usingthe tilde key. You can also enter console commands into the chatwidow by prefacing them with a double pound “##”.
MAPPING A COMMAND LINE TO THE QUICKBARTo map a command to the quickbar, right click in the quickbarslot to bring up a radial menu. Select the map command lineoption. Enter a label. Then enter the command prefaced with ##.
COMMON COMMANDS
(there was a short list of commands here, but they didn't transfer correctly. If you want to see them, open your manual and look for yourself)
(page 171)

There's a bone, ya'll chew on it for a while if you like.

I can't see why this should change anything?

[Elhanan]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

I can't see why this should change anything?

It doesn't for me; simply bolsters my previous statements.

[CBrachyrhynchos]

Interestingly, more and more game publishers are adopting cheating-detection systems for SP games on Steam. Resurrecting a character from a Torchlight Hardcore game is an example.

[Elhanan]

CBrachyrhynchos wrote...

Interestingly, more and more game publishers are adopting cheating-detection systems for SP games on Steam. Resurrecting a character from a Torchlight Hardcore game is an example.

Based simply on this thread alone, it would seem that there are more and more game creators that may insist on following the rules they used to craft the mod. But as NWN1 had different creators . designers, and offerend varied rule, the same is not said for it and this thread.

[Elhanan]

Lowlander wrote...

No.

I am just pointing out the errors in the latest rationalization. It was originally about designer intent, which he claimed we had no way of knowing. I stated that if designers intended you to use cheat codes to play the game, they would have made them availabl in the manual. But there is no way you would know how to cheat using the manual that came with the game.

He just made an erroneous claim that such information was in the manual.

But the instructions for using the command line in the DM client will not work in the regular game. So that statement stands.

This was never about the broader cheating issue, just the designer intent issue.

Of course since then we have had actual mod designers show up and explicitly tell you their intent, and you guys just attacked and argued with them. Apparently hearing the actual designer intent isn't good enough, just a reason to get more defensive and engage in more convoluted rationalizaiton.

This thread took a turn into the twilight zone with levels of self deception and rationalizing I didn't expect to see over something as trivial as cheating in a single player game.

If people get so defensive, rationalize so heavily over something as trivial as cheating in a computer games, then no wonder some so easily fall for 911 CIA conspiracy nonsense, or buy the corporate line denying Human impact on Global Warming. They have simply made a decision and have become so invested, they rationalize away any pesky facts.

Heinlein really nailed it when he said: "Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal"

It was not I that began all this by slapping labels on folks for suggesting that Game Implemented command codes would fix and/or enhance the game. There are only so many sticks & stones I am willing to endure.

And I am somewhat apethetic if said designers had intent for their choice of rules, as we are discussing a solo NWN1 game. And while some profess that it does not matter, some continue to toss the sticks & labels..

The idea that 'Clean Play' is the only pure way to play this solo game seems to be irrational.

Modifié par Elhanan, 11 mai 2011 - 03:31 .

[Elhanan]

Lowlander wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

The idea that 'Clean Play' is the only pure way to play this solo game seems to be irrational.

I don't think I said that. But I really don't get your point here. In this context "clean" and "pure" are close to synonymous. So indicating they are would not be irrational. 

* NWN1 has varied rules; the default (ie; Clean Play) settings are not the only way to play.
* NWN1 included Command codes as well as other optional rules.
* NWN1 includes a DM Client, Multiplayer, and Toolkit to every player.

* Adding other rules be it the optional Difficuly Slider, the nwn.ini, command codes,DM Client, Multiplayer, or Toolkit does not equate to cheating in solo game.

* To believe that others must adhere to a single set of defined rules in a solo game seems irrational.

[Elhanan]

Lowlander wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

* Adding other rules be it the optional Difficuly Slider, the nwn.ini, command codes,DM Client, Multiplayer, or Toolkit does not equate to cheating in solo game.

Yes I am aware of your rationalizations around this.

But even if you convince a few people not to call these activities ( giving yourself unlimited gold, buying all the uber gear in the shops, giving yourself restricted items from the mod, etc...) cheating, it is unlikely any of them would call this "style" of play  "pure". 

The post I quoted, you said it was irrational to equate "clean" and "pure". That is baffling nonsense.

It makes much less sense to equate "pure" with your "style" of play where you give yourself what ever you want to gain gear/take shortcuts.

I don't think anything has done more harm to the "it's not cheating" argument than the absolutely baffling level of defensiveness and rationalizing lately.  But it is hard to look away from it, in a train wreck kind of way...

I ain't going for a majority of concensus; rarely care.

I am not calling your style of play pure, or mine; was using the term sarcastically to define your 'Clean' style of play, as you seem to attach a stigma to anything else.

Little baffling about it, though it might be for you.

If one plays solo, choose the rules and settings you desire, try and adhere to them, and have fun! Just be careful when posting feedback....