244 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadooow]

Elhanan wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

No. The designer creates the rules that are used to play the mod or game. In some cases, they'll produce difficulty levels to allow the player to customise the challenge to suit their skill level. If the player chooses to operate outside of the standard functionality of the game (e.g. using console commands that won't work without additional "out-of-game" modification to settings files), then they're not playing the same game. They're using cheats.

Again, you're arguing with a bucketload of literature and doctrine on game design regarding rule mechanics if you say the designer's rules don't matter. But I guess that as a player that you know better than veterans of the game industry and people who dedicate large portions of their life writing about it?

Sometimes, I might. A few old souls may seem to recall this Anient One being among the first to ask on the forums for needed fixes to be made for the 3E Ranger. And seeing that the NWN1 Ranger is far above the lesser model, I cannot claim responsibility for the improved model, but was found to be correct when compared to the 3.5 version coming out soon thereafter. I ain't always right, but the same can be held for being wrong, too.

While the designer may wish, desire, and cross both their typing fingers for their rules to be used in play, it is the Player that decides and actually plays the game. Adding files, haks, and other possible rule variants does not make the Player a cheater.  The designer's choices do matter, as many will play the default methods, even myself. But it is still the indv Player that makes the final decision.

Yes I agree but it depends on usage. For me, if you install ranger per 3.5 hak into your single player game its not cheating. But if you raise your abilities up to 255 then you are cheating. Its about player intend. If player wants to make things easier, faster, cheaper, etc. he is cheating and not modding anymore.

[Elhanan]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

[Yes I agree but it depends on usage. For me, if you install ranger per 3.5 hak into your single player game its not cheating. But if you raise your abilities up to 255 then you are cheating. Its about player intend. If player wants to make things easier, faster, cheaper, etc. he is cheating and not modding anymore.

It is up to the Player intent. So even if I agree with you that 255 in all abilities would not be fun or challenging, another Player only wanting to see the stories and wanting to breeze thru combat may have other expectations, thus is not cheating per se.

However, if that Player then chooses later to add unlimited gold or read walkthroughs, and sways from that original intent, they may be cheating themselves by breaking their own self-imposed rules.

All of this in solo game context only.

[Shadooow]

Elhanan wrote...

It is up to the Player intent. So even if I agree with you that 255 in all abilities would not be fun or challenging, another Player only wanting to see the stories and wanting to breeze thru combat may have other expectations, thus is not cheating per se.

Yes player can intend to see the top items in order to prepare power build (which would be metagaming) but you just rationalizing again. It doesnt matter on what you are using cheats. (That could be in conflict with something i may say before but I didnt changed my mind, if I did that I probably just didnt described the case enough)

EDIT: this is vicious spiral

The main issue I see about this is that you and your side says "you play SP alone so you can make your own "rules"" but as I said I dont think its true, other peoples playing the same (except if they modified it with mods like PRC) SP game too, just not with you. And that is it. If you can accept this thought, then you couldnt say you dont cheat in SP.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 13 mai 2011 - 10:18 .

[Elhanan]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Yes player can intend to see the top items in order to prepare power build (which would be metagaming) but you just rationalizing again. It doesnt matter on what you are using cheats. (That could be in conflict with something i may say before but I didnt changed my mind, if I did that I probably just didnt described the case enough)

EDIT: this is vicious spiral

The main issue I see about this is that you and your side says "you play SP alone so you can make your own "rules"" but as I said I dont think its true, other peoples playing the same (except if they modified it with mods like PRC) SP game too, just not with you. And that is it. If you can accept this thought, then you couldnt say you dont cheat in SP.

I do not seem to have anyone here on my side that I have noticed. As far as I can tell, there are those that:
 
* believe if one uses rules outside the mod, then one may be cheating.
* believe one cannot cheat when playing a solo mod.
* I seem to be the only one that contends that while the Player sets the standard for the solo game, they can violate that set of rules, and may cheat themselves.

I have cheated; have broken my own starting set of rules and was compelled to reload to earlier saves and replay the game as intended; my original intentions, and not the Mod Designer. But using mods, haks, and command codes does not make one a cheater in and by themselves.

[WebShaman]

First of all

A mod design / game dev does not dictate exactly how you play your SP games. However, they give you a pre-defined set of rules which dictate exactly how you can interact with the world. Review my previous post in this thread for examples of these rules across multiple game genres. These rules define the player's experience, and the designer(s) must create a game that revolves around these rules and delivers an engaging and cohesive experience because of them. The player does not make the rules, they are given the rules by the designer. Any claim otherwise is patently false and ridiculous. Without the rules given to the player by the designer (which are then enforced by the game's engine), there is no game.

If the player makes the rules, why can't they make the story too? Let's change Neverwinter Nights so that Fenthick isn't executed at the end of Act 1. Now the story is so much better... oh, wait. Actually, with that change, the story falls apart into an incoherent mess.

This is really puzzling that anyone would try to take this stance, especially someone with Mod/Dev experience!

If what you are saying is true, then there is NO NEED FOR COMMUNITY CONTENT to supplement the game!

And as we all know, community content for most games is a flourishing thing these days. So what does such content do? It changes the original game experience - visually, rules-wise, story-wise (there is even a bit of change for the OC of NWN where one can redeem Aribeth, etc) and so on.

Ignoring this as a Mod/Dev is incredulous!

Have you AmastradHero ever worked on a PW? Because most who work on a PW are well aware of such content that exists, for what I hold to be most obvious reasons. They tend to change the game experience AWAY from others playing at the same time (visual enhancements, etc in the Override, for example). Not to mention the darker side, but we will skip that here (it is an MP environment, after all, and not a Closed SP one).

You are confusing framework and mechanics for rules here. Don't. The Dev of a game (or even Mod creator) provides a framework based on some mechanic(s) as a vehicle for my imagination and enjoyment. As long as I am playing in a Closed SP environment, I (and I alone) decide what the rules are. The Dev(s) and/or Mod creator are NO LONGER INVOLVED!

Personally, all credibility that you may have had (not to mention the little rant you left in a huff) disappeared into the void with that little gem of a post. But perhaps you posted that out of an emotional outburst. That can often cloud the intellect and lead to such inane ramblings. I rather suspect that when you calm down, you will probably see the light of reason. Depending on your nature, you will either admit to it, or you will suppress it, gloss it over, etc. No worries.

All you had to say was "oh, well, in such a case, yeah, ok. Now I see what you are pointing out". That would have just about sewn it up. YMMV.

To ShaDoOoW : I have already defined what a Closed SP environment is. It is one where there are no others involved other than the Player themselves. And I can absolutely, with 100% certainty, contest to the fact that such exists - I play in such an environment all the time!

To Elhanan - you are almost there. You seem to have a small problem (logic-wise) with the fact that a Player cannot cheat on themselves (unless they have a split personality disorder, of course, as has also been pointed out before). I will show you.

Player DLs Mod (or makes it themselves - does not matter really).
Does modifications, etc to it. (original determination of the structure of Rules of Play).
Starts play.
Finds out in the course of play that some of the original determined rules of play are not satisfactory for the playing experience, for one reason or another.
Does further modifications, etc, to it (changes to the structure of Rules of Play).

As you can see, there is no cheating going on here. Just a refinement of the Rules of Play to allow for the maximum playing enjoyment. For example, I add the CEP to my DLed Mod, add in some appearance changers (I have my favs), scripts, etc. During play (due to my changes) certain errors or discrepancies show up. So, I have to make changes to correct them. And so on, until it is how I want it to be.

This is actually how the QA process works, you know? Debugging changes, and all that. Are you suggesting then that when the Devs/Mod creators change things, that they are actually cheating??!!

To those suggesting that "adding in X amount of gold, XP, items, etc" is cheating...well, what do you think that Mods/Devs do??!! Since it is my Closed SP environment, and my playing experience, I will mod the playing experience to tailor to MY tastes, not the tastes of someone else! This is one of the things that is so awesome about NWN! I have almost unlimited power at my fingertips (and Custom Content galore!) to accomplish this with!

Devs and Mod creators do not have this luxury as I do, because they cannot hope to cater directly to my specific playing style and tastes! They do not know me, what I like, dislike, etc. They create something that appeals to the projected AUDIENCE that they are trying to reach! This basically means more than one person. Thus, they often include things to appeal to that audience, or leave things out that might alienate it. This limits my personal playing experience! This is why NWN is really great! I can tailor the playing experience easily to match my playing style and tastes! No other game currently gives me this much power, with so little effort (not to mention the oodles of custom content that has been created for this game to choose from!).

If I want X amount of gold in the Mod, then I will put it in (modded). If I want such and such an item, in it goes! You all seem to be forgetting that in a Closed SP environment, I am all - Modder, Dev, DM, and Player alike! I can Mod the Mod, I can develop new rules and add them to the game and override the engine (very possible, see the PRC for details, for example), I can DM my party along (I normally only play with a party), and I RP their respective roles and parts, and of course I play.

None of this is cheating. It is not cheating due to the fact that we have agreed that in order to cheat, one has to be breaking rules. And as I have pointed out, in a Closed SP environment, I (and I alone) make the rules. I make them WHENEVER I so choose in order to maximize my playing enjoyment.

Because that is what it is all about. Playing enjoyment.

[Elhanan]

@ Web - Your reply is why I attempted to place 'it may be cheating' in my posts, as absolutes do not always occur. I agree that a Player met with a new challenge that is outside their parameters will have to make adj and corrections for play accordingly, debug, fix, etc., and they are not cheating.

However, if the Player violates their personal settings, say to get by some challenge that was (or could have been) anticipated, that may be cheating. For instance, if the Player knew the Mod had no use of perm Haste items and accepted that ruling, adding such an item due to a difficult encounter later might be cheating as they may spoil that encounter and the game for themselves. There may be other such examples, but in general, those actions which are taken that may actually spoil gameplay for that indv Player may be cheating, because they strayed from their own choice of rules for some reason.

Modifié par Elhanan, 13 mai 2011 - 02:41 .

[olivier leroux]

Elhanan wrote...
I do not seem to have anyone here on my side that I have noticed. As far as I can tell, there are those that:
 
* believe if one uses rules outside the mod, then one may be cheating.
* believe one cannot cheat when playing a solo mod.
* I seem to be the only one that contends that while the Player sets the standard for the solo game, they can violate that set of rules, and may cheat themselves.

* and those who prefer to judge each individual case or don't see the point in judging at all, as long as everyone's having fun and noone's gaming experience is impaired by anyone else.


I also think there's some truth in the thought that as a single player you can't break any rules if you never agreed to play by them in the first place. And also in the thought that if you're playing by your own rules you're playing a different game and can't compare it to those of other players anymore or criticize the mod author whose rules you are not following. But if you don't compete with other people and just do your own thing without complaining and without harming anyone, I just can't be bothered to give your playstyle a name and distance myself from it. From my point of view "cheating" only has meaning if someone feels cheated. If noone feels cheated and everyone's happy, you can call it cheating or not, it just doesn't have any relevance, if you ask me.

Modifié par olivier leroux, 13 mai 2011 - 02:47 .

[WebShaman]

Here is where we depart, Elhanan. That individual Player cannot cheat themselves, because they can change the rules that they have decided upon whenever they so choose. They do not have to reach a consensus that is necessary when more than one is involved.

For example, I have decided upon my build for the game. For my entire party of halfling warriors, who all happen to have low Str and low Con (whatever. Consider it an RP device). That encounter now is more than just difficult, due to the build that I have selected. It is now IMPOSSIBLE. Those Perma-Haste booties fit the bill, nicely (pun intended!). I tend to do series of mods with a party that I have created from the gitgo. Some Mods may just not be suitable for such without modification (or such items).

Again, no cheating.

Even if the Player just decides "Screw it! I am putting in Haste Boots!" - well, so what? That is her right to do so. It does not matter if before that same Player had decided "I will do this according to the guidelines set by the Mod maker, without Perma-Haste." For some reason, known only to the Player themselves, they have decided to CHANGE THAT RULE.

And that is what it is, a change to the rules, not a breaking of them. That is the point being made here. One might (and probably would) consider something like that cheesy "Awww, you just did that to make it easier." Yes, but it is my game, so let me play it like I want to. It is all about my enjoyment, not yours. You play your game as you see fit, and I will do the same.

It is when one attempts to force things upon others that the dictatorship and tyranny starts. Do not label someone in a Closed SP environment a "cheater" because they make and play by their own rules, purely for their own enjoyment.

Remember, we are talking about a Closed SP environment here. We are not talking about the "Hey, I finished game X in X time with X blah blah blah left! I am teh BEST!" sort of play here - because there is comparisons being done with others. I do not, for example, compare my playing experiences with others. Why would I want to? It is for me, not for others.

Perhaps that is why I am one of the few that really enjoyed the original OC - because I tailor it to be more in line with my personal tastes. I still occasionally dust it off and mod it a bit more, and then play it through. YMMV.

Changing self-made rules is not breaking them. You are not unwillingly being subjected to the change. On the contrary, you are willingly participating. Again, this is about changing rules, not breaking them.

[Elhanan]

@ Web - And again I can agree to a point; the point where the Player sits back and considers that the mod was far too easy, wishes they had not done such and such at some Save, ends the game with items that were all self-fabricted and all mod items are in storage, etc. Basically, any choice that spoils or ruins that mod for that Player may be cheating.

FWIW - wish I could type that well and that quickly, as large posts are almost extinct for me currently.

[CBrachyrhynchos]

WebShaman wrote...

Devs and Mod creators do not have this luxury as I do, because they cannot hope to cater directly to my specific playing style and tastes!

Sure, and if your specific playing style and tastes happen to involve the Vorpal Wet Noodle of Dear Abby designed for your Munchkin Monk, then you certainly should expect criticsm. And of course, you can't really be taken seriously when you give advice on how to play a monk in a given module.

They do not know me, what I like, dislike, etc. They create something that appeals to the projected AUDIENCE that they are trying to reach!

Generally I find that if I really don't like a game, youtube is an easier way to get the funny parts.

And as I have pointed out...

You do know that simply repeating a bad claim doesn't make it true, don't you?

[CBrachyrhynchos]

WebShaman wrote...

For example, I have decided upon my build for the game. For my entire party of halfling warriors, who all happen to have low Str and low Con (whatever. Consider it an RP device). That encounter now is more than just difficult, due to the build that I have selected. It is now IMPOSSIBLE.

Well, on the one hand, encounters should be IMPOSSIBLE (or given the RNG highly improbable) for players that make bad and stupid strategic decisions on character builds. Neglecting primary and secondary stats for a character class is a handicap at best and just plain incompetent at worst.

In fact, I'd say that some stupid tactical decisions should be IMPOSSIBLE and result in messy and quick death, especially when the character has been abundantly warned about the dangers.

That said, encounters should be designed with alternatives for dextrious missile users, smart skill users, and/or squishy magic users. So there's nothing wrong with cheating to get around a bad design, or even an annoying design.

It is when one attempts to force things upon others that the dictatorship and tyranny starts. Do not label someone in a Closed SP environment a "cheater" because they make and play by their own rules, purely for their own enjoyment.

Why not? I'm a cheater, you're a cheater. Almost everyone cheats. Why do you think there's anything wrong with being called a cheater in this context?

Modifié par CBrachyrhynchos, 13 mai 2011 - 05:12 .

[The Fred]

There's a fine line between modding and cheating, but then there's a line between the letter and intent of the law, so to speak. I wouldn't call a mod within the spirit of the game cheating, though it could be defined as such, but I would definately "label" anyone who makes things significantly easier for themselves without reason (other than "fun" etc); this doesn't make them a bad person, if that's what they enjoy, but it's still cheating (cheating =/= bad, necessarily, in an SP environment).

[olivier leroux]

But if someone treats a story mod merely as a "setting" to play around with and think up their own plot events, ignoring the ones provided by the mod author (no matter what the mod author thinks about that), can you still call that cheating? It's not even the same game anymore.

[olivier leroux]

Put some more coal in the stove to keep the two groups warm and cosy. Ah, already done. Thank you! 

[Elhanan]

Lowlander wrote...

The thread that never dies. This thread has long moved past introducing any new information and has been going in circles for pages.

We simply have two groups with irreconcilable differences. There are some people in between, and some talk about the grey area, but it is the groups at either end of the spectrum that can never meet that will drive this topic endlessly in circles.

The first group, believes anything they do, isn't cheating, but "new rules". If playing a module about surviving with nothing after a shipwreck, where finding a driftwood to use as a club is a breakthrough. They would simply give their character a set of +5 armor, +5 weapons, boots of speed, bags of holding. Hey It's not cheating, it's new rules.

The Second group, sees this as nothing but flimsy rationalizing.

On the old forum, I think we would have achieved lockdown a couple of pages back. Here I guess it can go forever in circles.

And here I thought we might see one post from you not being judgemental. My bad....

Personally, I have played the shipwreck scenr from PotSC numerous times without adding any new eqipment, but I have played with Epic characters; ones not intended by the mod designers to experience the scaling challenges.

One group sees this as expanding the rules, and increasing the enjoyment found in the mod. Hey; it's not cheating, it's new rules.

The Second group sees this as a violation of the intent of the Mod Design, and see this as cheating; some even going as far to label those doing so as cheater, perhaps in an attempt to rationalize and elevate their own self-focused behaviour.

And this ain't the old forums which would end on p10, if I recall. But I can see that all this possible circular talk might be problematic with one that is not fully grounded in the first place.

Modifié par Elhanan, 13 mai 2011 - 07:57 .

[Shia Luck]

Lowlander should have written...

The first group, believes anything they do, isn't cheating, but "new rules". If playing any module... They would simply give their character whatever was neccessary to increase their enjoyment of the game. This might be mods to make the difficulty harder, items to make their character weaker, mods to enable them to change their character's appearance, haks that add clothing options, anything, in fact, to increase the rp potential of their character and many many other ways of customising and modding the module.  Hey It's not cheating, it's new rules.

The Second group, has nothing but flimsy rationalizing to attempt to brand this as cheating.The only logical argument is that this is changing the module from the designers intent, which is exactly the same as modding something, but the 2nd group are scared to call modders "cheaters" and prefer to fall back to repeating illogical accusations and emotional rhetoric.

Just try it lowlander. Substitute your usual examples with "items that make the character weaker" or "mods that make the game more difficult" instead of lamely going on about adding in uber gear.

*snuggling up to the fire*

Have fun

Modifié par Shia Luck, 14 mai 2011 - 12:34 .

[WebShaman]

Shia, we have already firmly established that Lowlander's debate does not stand up, logically. It is a moot point at this time in the conversation. It is a belief, nothing more, nothing less.

It will not be changed by any type of parading of facts, evidence to the contrary, or logical argument or proofs. There is a major study that was concluded that explains how this type of human mentality acts, that attempting to convince such belief in someone of the contrary that it just pushes said person further into their belief, reinforcing it.

Should Lowlander ever offer a rebuttal (a logical one, that is) to the main fact proven (Cheating is breaking the rules; in a Closed SP environment the Player themselves make the Rules, therefore the Player cannot be breaking the rules as they, themselves, have made them), then perhaps we will reopen that portion of the debate. Seeing as how no-one has been able to do so in the many years following the last one, I hardly think that we will see any really new contradictions here.

What is now at the center of the debate is the position that there MAY be cheating in a Closed SP environment vs there is no cheating in a Closed SP environment.

We just need to get past that point here, with those who are now ready to accept it.

Then we have reached the consensus that was reached on the old forums, and it is a done thing. Of course, there will always be a strong vocal minority that cannot believe the facts, cannot follow a rational, logical argument and debate and come to the consequential conclusion.

After all, there are still those who believe despite all evidence to the contrary (note the word believe here, it is the important distinction) that Obama was not born in the US, there are those who still feverently believe that the world is flat, etc.

They remain as they are, fixated in their belief, in denial of the facts and the logical conclusion of the proofs.

[Shadooow]

WebShaman wrote...

in a Closed SP environment the Player themselves make the Rules, therefore the Player cannot be breaking the rules as they, themselves, have made them)

Which is part I dont agree too.
I dont think you can make rules. I thought about it carefully, I firstly though that if there is a group of players that makes a guild where they use their own rules it won't be cheating.

But when I read some posts here and start to think about it more + I read about one political issue in newspaper today I don't think so anymore.

Look.

There are some default rules thats not written, spoken, but agreed by majority of players and that are based on engine, common sense and morale. Can agree to this peoples?

Now, you can think that you can change these rules for yourself and if you do it in your house you are not breaking them. Yes you can, BUT you have to expect that other peoples will call you cheater if they ever find out (therefore the idea of Closed single player doesnt seem to me possible). Cos they are playing just the same game. Telling them that you can cheat in your house cos there are only your rules in acceptance is BS.

And this thought does work not just for any game but real life too. Like you would murdered your childrens and then call the court that you can do that cos its your house and was your childrens.

Someone argumented that NWN is special case but his arguments why it should be didnt persuaded me to accept them so I treat NWN, any SP game, even MP game the same way.

And BTW Im cheater. I cheated in SP (not anymore cos found out its only me who is losing fun) and even in multiplayer games mainly NWN. I dont need to rationalizing this, if I get banned and I was few times I can accept this.<_<

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 14 mai 2011 - 03:09 .

[Elhanan]

WebShaman wrote...


... What is now at the center of the debate is the position that there MAY be cheating in a Closed SP environment vs there is no cheating in a Closed SP environment.

We just need to get past that point here, with those who are now ready to accept it....

While I concur that there may be reasons to add rules beyond the start of the game, I do contend that a Player may be tempted as in life to stray beyond the intended guidelines of play they wished to use. If the Player's new rules do not break such intent, then that would not be cheating.

However, if that Player spoils the game thus cheating themselves of a better gaming challenge or experience based on their chosen rules, then I hold that the Player bit the lure, and snagged themselves. Reload!

[olivier leroux]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

WebShaman wrote...

in a Closed SP environment the Player themselves make the Rules, therefore the Player cannot be breaking the rules as they, themselves, have made them)

Which is part I dont agree too.
I dont think you can make rules. I thought about it carefully, I firstly though that if there is a group of players that makes a guild where they use their own rules it won't be cheating.

But when I read some posts here and start to think about it more + I read about one political issue in newspaper today I don't think so anymore.

Look.

There are some default rules thats not written, spoken, but agreed by majority of players and that are based on engine, common sense and morale. Can agree to this peoples?

Now, you can think that you can change these rules for yourself and if you do it in your house you are not breaking them. Yes you can, BUT you have to expect that other peoples will call you cheater if they ever find out (therefore the idea of Closed single player doesnt seem to me possible). Cos they are playing just the same game. Telling them that you can cheat in your house cos there are only your rules in acceptance is BS.

And this thought does work not just for any game but real life too. Like you would murdered your childrens and then call the court that you can do that cos its your house and was your childrens.

Nope, this is something I strongly disagree with for a change. If we have to call something BS, then it's using moral arguments in a NWN single player environment, comparing it to committing murder or even just stating that the SP player is breaking some written or unspoken laws of a community. He (or she) is not because it's a SINGLE PLAYER game, noone is hurt, there is no police, no judge and jury, no referee but the player himself and whatever he does doesn't affect the community one bit because there is no community in single player  unless you step out of your own house and compare yourself to other players or tell them to adapt your ways.

In a Multiplayer environment it is reckless to play by your own rules and will most likely impair the fun of other players. It's not your own house, and by joining a Multiplayer server you automatically accept becoming member of a community and agree to the terms of conduct. Since you forcibly agreed to them, you can't just switch to your own set of rules (unless the server's rules allow it). If you do, you break the rules and are a cheater and since you thereby disrespect the community and its laws, the community has the right to punish and expel you.

All of this has no relevance in a single player environment, as stated. It doesn't make any sense to mix these two totally different concepts.

And btw, as trivial as this sounds, children are living beings not anyone's property and as a father you are not a single player but a member of the small community of your family, and the law is only there to protect the life of your children (who count as members of a greater community, too) not to impose rules of conduct unto you in your own house. The law doesn't care what ingredients you mix when cooking and if you eat your meals from the floor or the table or in bed, or if you eat the dessert before the main dish, or if you nourish yourself by eating desserts and sweets only, unless someone else (e.g. your children) is negatively affected by it. Human law or more specifically law enforcement is only relevant for communal life and loses its relevance if you're the last human on earth on a lonely isle - or a single player who is just enjoying himself (although you may still value and abide some laws you think sensible and useful for your own life or game).

And yes, you always have to expect that other peoples will call you all kinds of names. That doesn't make them right though.

Modifié par olivier leroux, 14 mai 2011 - 05:36 .

[jmlzemaggo]

Let's use gaming for what it is: no rules but ours, the only way to fully experiment everything.
I quite enjoy playing evil here in NWN. But never in my life.
Maybe because that game showed me that it wasn't my thing after all.
Also trying to keep any NWN thread out of the personal fights, that's the only morality I could care about.
That thread could get very interesting, when it's about cheating only, not about who is good or who is bad.
Or who is right and who is... wrong. My most hated despicable word.  
Let's stick to the title of the thread, please?
Philosophy being the only science that can't afford being cheap. 
Cheat! 

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 14 mai 2011 - 07:30 .

[WebShaman]

Elhanan wrote...

WebShaman wrote...


... What is now at the center of the debate is the position that there MAY be cheating in a Closed SP environment vs there is no cheating in a Closed SP environment.

We just need to get past that point here, with those who are now ready to accept it....

While I concur that there may be reasons to add rules beyond the start of the game, I do contend that a Player may be tempted as in life to stray beyond the intended guidelines of play they wished to use. If the Player's new rules do not break such intent, then that would not be cheating.

However, if that Player spoils the game thus cheating themselves of a better gaming challenge or experience based on their chosen rules, then I hold that the Player bit the lure, and snagged themselves. Reload!

Elhanan, it is not about what one may think or believe about it, it is what the logical conclusion is to what we are discussing and debating here that is important.

I think this concept is what some here are not considering.  Sure, one can have beliefs about the topic, or even think or consider it to be something that it is not.  However, logically following the proofs leads to the only conclusion that I have given.

It is that simple.

Cheating is breaking the rules (given).

In a Closed SP environment, the Player is Dev, Mod creator, DM, and Player all in one (defined, given).

In a Closed SP environment (defined, given), the Player (defined, given) themselves make the rules (logical conclusion following the definition of what a Closed SP environment is).

As such, a Player cannot break their own rules, as they make and decide them. 

For example, if it is possible for a Player in a Closed SP environment to break their own rules (without having a split personality), then Devs break the rules everytime they make changes to the game, and Mod Creators, etc, as well.  For the original "game" was first decided upon, and then changed during the course of development, and afterwards (through patches, for example).

So are the Devs and Mod creators "cheating"?  What if the changes make things easier (this often happens in the QA rounds, btw)?  Is it cheating?  Are they "falling to temptation" to make things easier?

Now, I have also defined what a Player is in a Closed SP environment is, as stated above.

For example, what if I choose to play my game without the engine?  Yes, one can do this.  Turn off the creature AI with the DM client, and do rolls manually for all involved.  I have actually played combat out this way - it is unique, much closer to the PnP feeling, and can be quite fun (though time-intensive).  You may need two computers to do this in a Closed SP environment (run the Mod as a Server, log in with the DM client, and then play through another).  Now I can do anything that I want, in any manner or fashion.

@ShaDoOw - your example does not meet the definitions that I have set here.  Therefore, they fall outside of the debate.  Any comparison with others is no longer a Closed SP environment.  And yes, I have already proven that a Closed SP environment exists, as I and others have experienced such.  This is also reliably repeatable by others, so it stands up to peer review.

It sounds to me like some just do not wish to accept that 1+1=2.  Not accepting it, however, does not make it false.

@ Lowlander - please submit your rebuttal to the proof, please.  It should be able to be repeatable and stand up under peer review.
 

Modifié par WebShaman, 15 mai 2011 - 02:18 .

[Elhanan]

@ Web - The glitch I see in your objective problem review is that the DM in a solo game is not infallable. I contend that one may cheat themselves out of a better game, ruin play, and spoil the experience; not just break technical aspects.

I guess the difference in our positions is that while you contend for a completely objective def of cheating as breaking the rules, I also included (see early in thread) the def of spoilage as cheating; as it violates the intent of the rules which is to enjoy the game. This is the heart of the Law. And the Law is (or should be) both motive and method, IMO.