398 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

FedericoV wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Sold in vs sold through is very important.

Your heath prediction is flawed based on 2 things. Prices being slashed and the gap between sold in and sold through. That does not indicate a healthy game. That indicates a publisher shipping games that are not being bought.

Your free to believe what you like but healthy games don't drop in price after 3 weeks, or have other games given away with them as freebies.

Price are allways spashed by retailers after a while. In these days, only fools (like myself) buys products before the prices drop. The initial price applied by retailers is allways a form of cash grab. The real sales allways happen with discount.

You do not know why they have dropped the prices after 3 weeks. It could mean many many different things. It could mean that EA and Bioware are confident to take an aggressive move toward the market and to fight the used copies market. It does not necessarly means that the game is going bad. It could easily means the opposite considering economy of scale. 

Selling at retailer level it's not a science, it's more of an art imho. But retailers do not buy products if they believe that they will take dust on their shelf and do not use incentives if they loose money because of them. 

Yep. And as I've mentioned before, I bought my first DAO copy 3-4 weeks after it was released (Holiday Sale) for 19.99 Euros. (A 60 % price drop!!) Sales happen all the time. And games are bundled with others all the time as well. Even back in the old days I bought Might & Magic VII bundled together with Might & Magic VI (Free). Or Gabriel Knight II bundled with Gabriel Knight I. Both were smash hits in their genres. It's MARKETING. Austria: At the biggest PC game retailer in the country  the DAII Sig Edition still costs 47 Euros (Around 60 bucks) while Sims Medieval (Which came out later and is supposedly more successful!) is already down to 29.99 Euros. So what does that mean? Does it mean Sims Medieval is an utter flop? Of course not!

[FedericoV]

Persephone wrote...

Yep. And as I've mentioned before, I bought my first DAO copy 3-4 weeks after it was released (Holiday Sale) for 19.99 Euros. (A 60 % price drop!!) Sales happen all the time. And games are bundled with others all the time as well. Even back in the old days I bought Might & Magic VII bundled together with Might & Magic VI (Free). Or Gabriel Knight II bundled with Gabriel Knight I. Both were smash hits in their genres. It's MARKETING. Austria: At the biggest PC game retailer in the country  the DAII Sig Edition still costs 47 Euros (Around 60 bucks) while Sims Medieval (Which came out later and is supposedly more successful!) is already down to 29.99 Euros. So what does that mean? Does it mean Sims Medieval is an utter flop? Of course not!

Yep. Not to count that even if Sold In vs. Sold Through is such a big deal (and I do not believe that is so important to dismiss EA financial report most obvious conclusions: ie, DA2 is a moderate commercial succes) we should still consider that in the same timeframe (but during christmass time) DA:O have shipped 2,7 milion copies. And in the meantime, the digital market is improoved. So, let's decide: are they both failures or success?

I repeat myself: sales/price and so on do not proove anything and should not be treated like that. Constructive criticism do not loose its value because of EA's financial report. DA2 is still a game with its good share of flaws and people are right stressing them in a civil way.

But honestly, after DA2 haters has spend so much time and effort trying to proove that the game was a commercial failure (using their supposed datas as proof) after that many devs have received some of the most rude and stupid personal attack in the history of gaming... well, I must admit that it was sweet to read that report:innocent:.

Modifié par FedericoV, 06 mai 2011 - 10:28 .

[AkiKishi]

FedericoV wrote...

Price are allways spashed by retailers after a while. In these days, only fools (like myself) buys products before the prices drop. The initial price applied by retailers is allways a form of cash grab. The real sales allways happen with discount.

You do not know why they have dropped the prices after 3 weeks. It could mean many many different things. It could mean that EA and Bioware are confident to take an aggressive move toward the market and to fight the used copies market. It does not necessarly means that the game is going bad. It could easily means the opposite considering economy of scale. 

Selling at retailer level it's not a science, it's more of an art imho. But retailers do not buy products if they believe that they will take dust on their shelf and do not use incentives if they loose money because of them. 

Not without reason. The number 1 reason being that they overordered the game and are trying to shift stock.

It's not rocket science , they dropped the price because the game was not selling and storing anything in large ammounts costs money.

What we don't know is how EA is sweetening the pot on the retailer side of things. Is it order a unit of DA2 and you get a Crysis 2 for free ? There are lot's of different arrangements between publishers and distributers and distributers and retailers.

FedericoV wrote...
I repeat myself: sales/price and so on do not proove anything and should not be treated like that. Constructive criticism do not loose its value because of EA's financial report. DA2 is still a game with its good share of flaws and people are right stressing them in a civil way.

That makes no sense at all. You can sell a billion units but if you sell them at a loss it means nothing. How much profit you make per unit is more important than units sold.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 06 mai 2011 - 10:38 .

[Persephone]

BobSmith101 wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

Price are allways spashed by retailers after a while. In these days, only fools (like myself) buys products before the prices drop. The initial price applied by retailers is allways a form of cash grab. The real sales allways happen with discount.

You do not know why they have dropped the prices after 3 weeks. It could mean many many different things. It could mean that EA and Bioware are confident to take an aggressive move toward the market and to fight the used copies market. It does not necessarly means that the game is going bad. It could easily means the opposite considering economy of scale. 

Selling at retailer level it's not a science, it's more of an art imho. But retailers do not buy products if they believe that they will take dust on their shelf and do not use incentives if they loose money because of them. 

Not without reason. The number 1 reason being that they overordered the game and are trying to shift stock.

It's not rocket science , they dropped the price because the game was not selling and storing anything in large ammounts costs money.

What we don't know is how EA is sweetening the pot on the retailer side of things. Is it order a unit of DA2 and you get a Crysis 2 for free ? There are lot's of different arrangements between publishers and distributers and distributers and retailers.

So DAO wasn't selling either because I got it for 19.99 3-4 weeks after its release?

All the rest is maybe, possibly etc. I do not deal in maybes...er....assumptions. (Quoting Meredith ain't good)

[AkiKishi]

Persephone wrote...
So DAO wasn't selling either because I got it for 19.99 3-4 weeks after its release?

All the rest is maybe, possibly etc. I do not deal in maybes...er....assumptions. (Quoting Meredith ain't good)

It was a slow burn , being a new IP and all not suprising in the least. It's still 2 more than what DA2 was going for after 3-4 weeks though.

Common sense really. I'm not going to pay a distributer XX and then sell at a loss after the first order run. Nothing in it for me as the retailer to do that. Either the distributer or the publisher need to lower the unit price to still make it profitible to do so.

[FedericoV]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Not without reason. The number 1 reason being that they overordered the game and are trying to shift stock.

That's your biased conlusion. Have you got any proof of it? You simply don't know. Only thing we know for sure is that DA2 has shipped 2 milion copies to retailers and that while the critical reception has not being great, EA and Bioware seems satisfied with the result.

It's not rocket science , they dropped the price because the game was not selling and storing anything in large ammounts costs money.

We do not know but you act like you have the truth in your pocket. As I said, they could have dropped price to fight the used market that normally kicks in 2 or 3 weeks after the publication of a game. You are drowing conclusions on baseless conjecture just to dismiss a FACT: 

DA2 shipped 2 milion copies in its first month of life and DA:O shipped 2,7 in the same timeframe during christmass time.

What we don't know is how EA is sweetening the pot on the retailer side of things. Is it order a unit of DA2 and you get a Crysis 2 for free ? There are lot's of different arrangements between publishers and distributers and distributers and retailers.

What if the incentive is DA2? What if DA:O used the same kind of bunlde to get sold? You do not know, so you should stop making assumption because of your opinion of the game (that it's still valid and all) and start simply to aknowledge the implication of the report. Get over it.

Modifié par FedericoV, 06 mai 2011 - 10:46 .

[Persephone]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Persephone wrote...
So DAO wasn't selling either because I got it for 19.99 3-4 weeks after its release?

All the rest is maybe, possibly etc. I do not deal in maybes...er....assumptions. (Quoting Meredith ain't good)

It was a slow burn , being a new IP and all not suprising in the least. It's still 2 more than what DA2 was going for after 3-4 weeks though.

Common sense really. I'm not going to pay a distributer XX and then sell at a loss after the first order run. Nothing in it for me as the retailer to do that. Either the distributer or the publisher need to lower the unit price to still make it profitible to do so.

So in DAO's case a 60% price drop is entirely normal. I see.

We'll never agree on this, Bob. So we'll have to agree to disagree again.

[FedericoV]

BobSmith101 wrote...

FedericoV wrote...
I repeat myself: sales/price and so on do not proove anything and should not be treated like that. Constructive criticism do not loose its value because of EA's financial report. DA2 is still a game with its good share of flaws and people are right stressing them in a civil way.

That makes no sense at all. You can sell a billion units but if you sell them at a loss it means nothing. How much profit you make per unit is more important than units sold.

Read again. I'm only saying that sales are not all and that they are not the ultimate judge of the quality of a game, especially if we talk of AAA titles with big marketing budget.

[AkiKishi]

Persephone wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Persephone wrote...
So DAO wasn't selling either because I got it for 19.99 3-4 weeks after its release?

All the rest is maybe, possibly etc. I do not deal in maybes...er....assumptions. (Quoting Meredith ain't good)

It was a slow burn , being a new IP and all not suprising in the least. It's still 2 more than what DA2 was going for after 3-4 weeks though.

Common sense really. I'm not going to pay a distributer XX and then sell at a loss after the first order run. Nothing in it for me as the retailer to do that. Either the distributer or the publisher need to lower the unit price to still make it profitible to do so.

So in DAO's case a 60% price drop is entirely normal. I see.

We'll never agree on this, Bob. So we'll have to agree to disagree again.

Did I say it was normal ? It's common for a new IP to have a slower start than a sequel though.

You could try offering a counter argument explaining why retailers would still buy something at full price from EA and then sell it at a loss

[FedericoV]

BobSmith101 wrote...

You could try offering a counter argument explaining why retailers would still buy something at full price from EA and then sell it at a loss

Do you think that retailers have payed the game 60-65 €? Or even 50 €?

LOL

Modifié par FedericoV, 06 mai 2011 - 11:36 .

[AkiKishi]

FedericoV wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

You could try offering a counter argument explaining why retailers would still buy something at full price from EA and then sell it at a loss

Do you think that retailers have payed the game 60-65 €? Or even 50 €?

LOL

Obviously not. But would you pay the same for something that were selling at £40 for and now selling at £17.99 ?

[FedericoV]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Obviously not. But would you pay the same for something that were selling at £40 for and now selling at £17.99 ?

It only means that they are making a profit even with the 17,99 £ price tag and that they do not want to suffer the competition of used games. Take a look at the Amazon UK page of DA2. They are simply making aggressive competition to the second hand market since prices are mostly the same (used and new). Probably, they have allready payed their bulk orders with the "stupid fools" like us who have payed the game at full price and now they are concentrating in selling the stock asap. I would not be surprised if retailers payed DA2 something like 15-20 €.

[FedericoV]

PS: In Amazon Italy and Amazon USA the game is still priced with the same price tag more or less (50+ €/$). So, I think that it would be pretty wrong to generalize...

[AkiKishi]

FedericoV wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Obviously not. But would you pay the same for something that were selling at £40 for and now selling at £17.99 ?

It only means that they are making a profit even with the 17,99 £ price tag and that they do not want to suffer the competition of used games. Take a look at the Amazon UK page of DA2. They are simply making aggressive competition to the second hand market since prices are mostly the same (used and new). Probably, they have allready payed their bulk orders with the "stupid fools" like us who have payed the game at full price and now they are concentrating in selling the stock asap. I would not be surprised if retailers payed DA2 something like 15-20 €.

This is probably correct. But what possible reson do they then have to re-order more copies ? Even less than EA retailers don't care what they sell, only that they sell.

[FedericoV]

BobSmith101 wrote...

This is probably correct. But what possible reson do they then have to re-order more copies ? Even less than EA retailers don't care what they sell, only that they sell.

Amazon UK could have choose to make a bigger stock to pay the games much less and have an aggressive policy later on when the bulk order was allready payed out. If they choose such course of action, they are not looking to make re-orders but just to finish the stock to free space for the next big thing. Moreover, Amazon UK and EA are both in Britain and that could explain the difference in price between them and Amazon.It or Amazon.US

But at the end we really do not know. So I will stop to make assumption since it's pointless and do not say anything about the quality of DA2. If you like to continue, do as you like without me . But honestly it seems to me that you do not need fact to justify your opinion or falsify the opinions of someone else since you have an ideologic position on the issue. You are sure that the game is a failure on any level? What's the point to discuss?

Modifié par FedericoV, 06 mai 2011 - 01:00 .

[nopho]

FedericoV wrote...
Amazon UK could have choose to make a bigger stock to pay the games much less and have an aggressive policy later on when the bulk order was allready payed out. If they choose such course of action, they are not looking to make re-orders but just to finish the stock to free space for the next big thing

there is an amount of costs which the publisher has to ask for the game. on ideal circumstances the game pays its production costs (simply burning the cd and the packageing etc.), the developers (plus the time they worked on it) and it's share on R&D, not so successfull games etc. what i am trying to tell you is, that EA most likely wont sell the game for anything like 5pounds to anyone thus the margin is very small if you sell a game for 17pounds. Amazon would naturally just buy the game on amounts wich they are confident they could sell and i guess it is evident  that they simply thought they could sell more then they did.
or was there big advertisement campaign wich communicated the drastic drop in prices wich should go along with an aggressive policy?

Moreover, Amazon UK and EA are both in Britain and that could explain the difference in price between them and Amazon.It or Amazon.US

what do you mean? it is an american company with HQ close to redwood city, their EU HQ is in switzerland, genva

But at the end we really do not know. So I will stop to make assumption since it's pointless and do not say anything about the quality of DA2. If you like to continue, do as you like without me .

oh yes please

But honestly it seems to me that you do not need fact to justify your opinion or falsify the opinions of someone else since you have an ideologic position on the issue. You are sure that the game is a failure on any level? What's the point to discuss?

dear lord, so you tell you leave this discussion but not before insulting him some bit with accuastions which fit yourself like a glove?

Modifié par nopho, 06 mai 2011 - 01:49 .

[Mad-Max90]

I agree with bob, anybody with half a brain and no eyes can see this is the final stage in it's shelf life, all they did was sell 2 million games to the retailers that in no way makes it 2 million sold to gamers. Not to mention the vast majority of buyers only bought the product due to the success that was origins, and many of those were blind pre-orders.

[FedericoV]

nopho wrote...

there is an amount of costs which the publisher has to ask for the game.
snip

Just explain that to me: why the drop is only in England? Why in Italy or US the game is still 50+ €? Why Amazon UK have that kind of policy on most AAA games in their catalogue? Are you sure that is a problem of DA2 only? Other games with very good ratings have similar price tag.

I won't made up any more theory (even if my point was just to proove that there could be other explanations than "DA2 sucks and is a commercial failure"). I'll just repeat that we do not know.

Only thing we know for sure:

DA:O: shipped 2,7 milions in the first month or so, during christmass.
DA2: shipped 2 millions in the first month.

what do you mean? it is an american company with HQ close to redwood city, their EU HQ is in switzerland, genva

You're right, I make en error. At the end I'm just saying that the different branches of Amazon have probably different policies about the games considering the peculiarity of each country. And that because of those peculiarity they could have made a different agreement with the publisher of such games in each country.

oh yes please

I've changed my mind just for you <3.

dear lord, so you tell you leave this discussion but not before insulting him some bit with accuastions which fit yourself like a glove?

Have you read the whole exchange? I'm saying from the beginning that there is only one fact that is known (DA2 shipped 2 million copies) and that Bioware and EA considers it a good result. All the theories I made up were just to proof that there could be many different explanations for the price drop in UK and that we simply do not know for sure. But you do, right? You know for sure. So, what's the point replaying me? You allready know the truth and everyone who do not agree is a fanboy, a liar or a sheep, so why you reply to me? Maybe you have some doubts?

Modifié par FedericoV, 06 mai 2011 - 03:00 .

[gingerbill]

user reviews , especially ones with a campaign of sad gits to give it 0 mean nothing .

I looked at portal 2 a day or two after it came out , it had 95% reviews from critics and 46% from users . With a big load of 0 out of ten the second you could post a review. Clearly the user reviews are worth nothing.

[Kilshrek]

gingerbill wrote...

user reviews , especially ones with a campaign of sad gits to give it 0 mean nothing .

I looked at portal 2 a day or two after it came out , it had 95% reviews from critics and 46% from users . With a big load of 0 out of ten the second you could post a review. Clearly the user reviews are worth nothing.

No, look at the Portal 2 user ratings now. Once the bull**** had been weeded out and the actual ratings sorted the image is quite clear, Portal 2 did well. It satisfied its customers and pleased the critics.

in case people are too lazy
PS3
360

Followed by DA 2, which satisfied critics and displeased fans
PC
PS3
360

Or you could just stick your head in the sand and cover your ears, that works too.

[neppakyo]

I never did say DA2 was a commercial failure, just that it wasn't doing as well as its been promoted, also the silly corp talk with sold in.

DA2 will do decently, no smashing hit that EAWare was hoping for. In its life time it will be lucky to hit 3 million total sales across all three platforms.

[nopho]

FedericoV wrote...

Just explain that to me: why the drop is only in England? Why in Italy or US the game is still 50+ €? Why Amazon UK have that kind of policy on most AAA games in their catalogue? Are you sure that is a problem of DA2 only? Other games with very good ratings have similar price tag.

other games too have (had) a best selling game attached to it and are sold barely on price? and with that i mean 30pounds below.
why amazon UK? i do not know the biggest indicator for me would be, that english is the most spread second language in europe, many people who want a good synchronized version or one with less restrictions in terms of violence and adult-scences buy it there. i bought my copy at amazon UK, same as my copy of mass effect, they put much more effort in the english synchronization and i want the whole game.
so i guess amazon uk has to calculate for much more than just britain, the game selling poorly has an bigger impact on then as on amazon-italia.

I won't made up any more theory (even if my point was just to proove that there could be other explanations than "DA2 sucks and is a commercial failure"). I'll just repeat that we do not know.

Only thing we know for sure:

DA:O: shipped 2,7 milions in the first month or so, during christmass.
DA2: shipped 2 millions in the first month.

new IP/established IP DA:O sales over time yadda yadda
naturally can there be other explanations i simply disliked the way you presented your opinion. my last post was the closest to trolling i ever got here, while being close to that level seems to be your standard in many posts. (given the posts i read from you)

You're right, I make en error. At the end I'm just saying that the different branches of Amazon have probably different policies about the games considering the peculiarity of each country. And that because of those peculiarity they could have made a different agreement with the publisher of such games in each country.

read above

I've changed my mind just for you <3.

what a surprise

Have you read the whole exchange? I'm saying from the beginning that there is only one fact that is known (DA2 shipped 2 million copies) and that Bioware and EA considers it a good result.

how do you know that BiowarEA consider that a good result? because they do not write in their report to the people who buy their stocks that they consider it a bad release?

All the theories I made up were just to proof that there could be many different explanations for the price drop in UK and that we simply do not know for sure. But you do, right? You know for sure. So, what's the point replaying me? You allready know the truth and everyone who do not agree is a fanboy, a liar or a sheep, so why you reply to me? Maybe you have some doubts?

i am always open for new theories, but i usually try to bring them over in a civilized manner and not as if someone just jumped on my foot. just in case you didn't notice it, you just accused me of being self-rightous and downlooking to people who do not share my opinion.
i did reply to you because you made a very bad but not yet trolling impression to me while stateing false evidence (point of EA's HQ) and leaving this thread but not without insulting Bobsmith101 a final time (speak not the first).

[neppakyo]

Here's a pretty graph stolen from xkg, which shows the trends of sales.

Modifié par neppakyo, 06 mai 2011 - 04:31 .

[Night Prowler76]

This thread is falsley labeled, is should say "sold in", not just sold, its misleading.