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[Persephone]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Drasanil wrote...

Persephone wrote...
No. But DAO never had to face the odds DAII did. And given how hard some people are trying to sabotage it, it's doing remarkably well.

Come again? If anything DAII would likely have surpassed DAO had the game not been so poor, given all the publicity and good-will its predecessor generated for the franchise. If anything I'd say it's doing remarkably poorly given it had all the odds stacked in its favour...oh wait I guess you are right, DAO never really had to face the odds that DAII did...  

The game was hated on long before it came out. People openly admitted to hate-campaigning against it on Metacritic to sabotage sales and it shows as plainly as day, since the art of subtlety is not something they are familiar with. (Without ever having played it) And then the bouts of melodrama and exaggerated rage when it came out, closely tied to sky high expectations. There are two sides to every coin. You chose the focus on the shiny one, I chose to focus on the darker one. Each exists.

Every-single-hyped-game gets its amount of hate before coming out.
Halo, for example. Or Call of Duty. "Oh noes, another Halo". "Oh dear, another COD, I'm bored to death!".
And so begins the name-calling, etc.
I had high hopes for DA2 indeed, as I really loved Origins. And I don't consider myself a "hater"...but I truly, truly despised this sequel, for ruining what should have been a better game.

Hey, you have every right to feel that way and I'm sorry that you did not get the DAII you were hoping for. As long as people post constructive, in depth reviews that will show Bioware what their customers liked/disliked, I'm all for it. What I cannot stand is extreme hate/adoration campaigns. While I am heavily pro DAII, I'd never say it was perfect. I'd also not say that about DAO. 

[Boiny Bunny]

I'm fairly sure it's standard to see people threatening to meta-critic sabotauge sequels before they come out. There are always some that give it a go. And just as many that spam perfect 10's to counter.

My view is that they usually cancel one another out - leaving the user score on metacritic (especially when the number of reviews is high) reasonably unbiased.

The problem isn't so much troll reviews that give 1/10 or 10/10. It's more people who should have given the game 6/10 but were emotionally involved and so dissapointed that they gave it a 2/10 - which is completely undeserved. Well, something like that anyway!

[Drasanil]

Persephone wrote...

Drasanil wrote...

Persephone wrote...
No. But DAO never had to face the odds DAII did. And given how hard some people are trying to sabotage it, it's doing remarkably well.

Come again? If anything DAII would likely have surpassed DAO had the game not been so poor, given all the publicity and good-will its predecessor generated for the franchise. If anything I'd say it's doing remarkably poorly given it had all the odds stacked in its favour...oh wait I guess you are right, DAO never really had to face the odds that DAII did...  

The game was hated on long before it came out. People openly admitted to hate-campaigning against it on Metacritic to sabotage sales and it shows as plainly as day, since the art of subtlety is not something they are familiar with. (Without ever having played it) And then the bouts of melodrama and exaggerated rage when it came out, closely tied to sky high expectations. There are two sides to every coin. You chose the focus on the shiny one, I chose to focus on the darker one. Each exists.

Pre-game rage and whinning is perfectly normal though, the same happened to DAO and yet that didn't seem to "sabotage" the game in the way you described for DAII. It even came saddled with it's own high expectations from being "BG's Spiritual Sucessor".

DAII on the other hand had the benefit of immense recyclable material and a (mostly) fully functional engine that didn't need to be rebuilt from the ground up like DAO.

Sorry, if I don't see how your argument holds water. The only real explination is that Bioware dropped the ball with DAII.

Modifié par Drasanil, 05 mai 2011 - 04:44 .

[Persephone]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

I'm fairly sure it's standard to see people threatening to meta-critic sabotauge sequels before they come out. There are always some that give it a go. And just as many that spam perfect 10's to counter.

My view is that they usually cancel one another out - leaving the user score on metacritic (especially when the number of reviews is high) reasonably unbiased.

The problem isn't so much troll reviews that give 1/10 or 10/10. It's more people who should have given the game 6/10 but were emotionally involved and so dissapointed that they gave it a 2/10 - which is completely undeserved. Well, something like that anyway!

Good points here. Completely agree. Though I still think that the hate campaigning was and is way more active than the counter luff campaigning.

[Persephone]

Drasanil wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Drasanil wrote...

Persephone wrote...
No. But DAO never had to face the odds DAII did. And given how hard some people are trying to sabotage it, it's doing remarkably well.

Come again? If anything DAII would likely have surpassed DAO had the game not been so poor, given all the publicity and good-will its predecessor generated for the franchise. If anything I'd say it's doing remarkably poorly given it had all the odds stacked in its favour...oh wait I guess you are right, DAO never really had to face the odds that DAII did...  

The game was hated on long before it came out. People openly admitted to hate-campaigning against it on Metacritic to sabotage sales and it shows as plainly as day, since the art of subtlety is not something they are familiar with. (Without ever having played it) And then the bouts of melodrama and exaggerated rage when it came out, closely tied to sky high expectations. There are two sides to every coin. You chose the focus on the shiny one, I chose to focus on the darker one. Each exists.

Pre-game rage and whinning is perfectly normal though, the same happened to DAO and yet that didn't seem to "sabotage" the game in the way you described for DAII. It even came saddled with it's own high expectations from being "BG's Spiritual Sucessor".
DAII on the other hand had the benefit of immense recyclable material and a (mostly) fully functional engine that didn't need to be rebuilt from the ground up like DAO.
Sorry, if I don't see how your argument holds water. The only real explination is that Bioware dropped the ball with DAII.

It's a combination of all these things, everything being muddled up by emotions boiling over. I for one do not think Bioware dropped the ball with DAII. Could it have been better? Yes. But I hold the same convictions when it comes to DAO, so what do I know?

[Addai]

DSGrant wrote...
With a little common sense, you should be able to figure this out. It's not rocket science or some psychological mystery to be solved. If we're really honest with ourselves here, the detractors of DA2 (those who were disappointed by the game and it's "new direction") are afraid that if the game does well, it will only reinforce Bioware's design decisions. I believe that's a very valid concern. If Bioware hits big sales numbers with DA2, it will only substantiate design opinions such as those held by Mike Laidlaw. It's not that anyone wants to see Bioware fail - quite the contrary - but those not happy with DA2 do not want to see more of the same in DA3, and sales will determine that direction far more than fan feedback. That's as simply and truthfully as it can be put.

The devs seem pretty set on what they consider the wave of the future and the Bioware MO, regardless of the reception of DA2.

[fightright2]

http://investor.ea.c...eleaseID=574530

EA shipped seven titles in the fourth quarter that have already sold in over 1 million units each, life to date. Crysis2, Dragon Age 2 and Dead Space 2 each sold in more than two million units

I think the connotation is wrong. It is to be read as....

EA shipped seven titles in the fourth quarter that have already sold in over 1 million units each, life to date. Crysis2, Dragon Age 2 and Dead Space 2 each sold in more than two million units.

Meaning that they not only reached two million but surpassed it without giving the exact amount over the 2 million number.

At least that's how I read it first go before the "sold in" was pointed out and debated.

On the bright side it's good to read that BattleField Bad Company 2 did very well. I LOVE that game!

*runs away before the FPS bashing commences*

[Boiny Bunny]

^ I doubt it's a grammatical error, as it appears all over the document. Every statement they make involves the phrase 'sold in' rather than 'sold'.

'sold in more than X' also makes no grammatical sense.

[Kilshrek]

As was explained earlier by people more knowledgeable than I, "sold in" means shipped units, and not sold units.

[neppakyo]

Kilshrek wrote...

As was explained earlier by people more knowledgeable than I, "sold in" means shipped units, and not sold units.

^^this, he beat me to it.

And I was 'learnt' on the phrase as well, and looked up some stuff to get a mroe clear definition. Damn you all, making me learn stuff, its like I'm back in school *shakes fist*

And I don't mind Battlefeild. Some reason CoD bores the friar tuck out of me.

[jfsolo23A]

DSGrant wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I find the actual subject matter interesting. That being the earnings report. But the report is what it is. Whether it says it sold a dozen copies or 15 million, it doesnt really affect my enjoyment of the game. Any discrepencies is between EA and the IRS.

So why is the hater reactionary response to rush in and discredit? Are they somehow worried that if it sells too many copies they will somehow be proven wrong for disliking the game? I don't see how it changes a thing for them either.

With a little common sense, you should be able to figure this out. It's not rocket science or some psychological mystery to be solved. If we're really honest with ourselves here, the detractors of DA2 (those who were disappointed by the game and it's "new direction") are afraid that if the game does well, it will only reinforce Bioware's design decisions. I believe that's a very valid concern. If Bioware hits big sales numbers with DA2, it will only substantiate design opinions such as those held by Mike Laidlaw. It's not that anyone wants to see Bioware fail - quite the contrary - but those not happy with DA2 do not want to see more of the same in DA3, and sales will determine that direction far more than fan feedback. That's as simply and truthfully as it can be put.

People can continue arguing back and forth, focusing on semantics, sold, vs. shipped, blah, blah, but at the end of the day the above statement is, of course, what the whole thread is really about.

Bioware will make a few changes to DA III that will please a few of the DA II detractors, but I'm speculating that is won't be the wholesale changes that some are clamouring for.  The people who actually hate the game, and have been making all kinds of rhetorical statements proclaiming the game a failure and such, may have to admit that Bioware's current vision for how they want to make their games, means that they simply aren't going to buy anymore of Bioware's products.  

[fightright2]

neppakyo wrote...

Kilshrek wrote...

As was explained earlier by people more knowledgeable than I, "sold in" means shipped units, and not sold units.

^^this, he beat me to it.

And I was 'learnt' on the phrase as well, and looked up some stuff to get a mroe clear definition. Damn you all, making me learn stuff, its like I'm back in school *shakes fist*

And I don't mind Battlefeild. Some reason CoD bores the friar tuck out of me.

Then I stand corrected. It's nearly 1 am for me and have been up for 22 hours and have to hear the alarm for today in 3 hours.  (I rather stay awake then fail to hear it go off)

*goes to make some more coffee* I have a long day ahead.

[neppakyo]

fightright2 wrote...

Then I stand corrected. It's nearly 1 am for me and have been up for 22 hours and have to hear the alarm for today in 3 hours.  (I rather stay awake then fail to hear it go off)

*goes to make some more coffee* I have a long day ahead.

Ouch.. I have my PC in my room, with a Win7 alarm clock gadget. I crank my 5.1 surround sound speakers up to around 1/2, or 3/4, and man, do I ever wake up to some heavy thrash metal blasting! Works everytime.

I feel for you, done that before. Drink coffee and energy drinks. Then crash to bed as soon as you get home!

But yea back to topic, sold in and sold are two completely different creatures.

[TommyJayG]

How much of those sales were pre-orders from DA:O fans? I was one that pre-order, but not again. Also, after the game was released, as an incentive to purchase the product, Bioware was handing out free copies of Mass Effect II as well as extra DA2 incentives to anyone that bought DA2. Was that some sort of an apology to consumers who found out just how bad DA2 fell short of all expectations. Not only expectations, but fell short of being a true RPG experience.

If I purchase a car from a dealer, I expect it to drive and function like a car with all the bells and whistles. I wouldn't buy a car with engine troubles or no brakes and then expect to drive it. That is what Bioware has done with DA2. I get the "shell" with no innards. The packarge (marketed) looks nice, but when I drive it, the product fails to deliver exactly what I paid for. I am left wanting and frustrated, pissed off and skeptical of any future purchasing with that company. If I go back and file a complaint, will other customers complain and say that I am griping too much over it? I spent money on a product that made itself out to be something that it was not. Is that not false advertisement? In todays economy, paying $60+ dollars for a game, you expect to get your money's worth. Not so with this DA2 game. I feel for those that spent over $100.00 for the Bioware signature edition.

[MingWolf]

EA shipped seven titles in the fourth quarter that have already sold in over 1 million units each, life to date. Crysis2, Dragon Age 2 and Dead Space 2 each sold in more than two million units

It was mentioned in another thread pertaining to this, but I can't help but look at it again for interest sake again.

The Q1 cut-off is March 31st, and the press release was based off of Q1 results.  Given the fact that Crysis 2 was released only a week before the cut-off date, it would seem more than far-fetched that it could have sold 2 million in that time period.  Therefore, assuming we are talking about sales here and not simply "shipped," its hard to really take that one sentence seriously to reflect on the real sales volume of Dragon Age 2.  Again, this is assuming that we are talking about sales here. 

If we are talking about "shipped" here, then thats a different story, and one that bears little relevance that makes you wonder why they bothered saying anything in the first place.  If by sold-in, they meant filling store shelves, then that 2 million mark seems more plausible.  That doesn't constitute a sale, however.  Not in business terms, anyways, and definately shouldn't be reflected as revenues/sales on their financial report. 

Then again, that one sentence could have meant that DA2 sold 2 million now as opposed to March 31.  In that case, maybe its true.  But then again, their numbers would have been cut off at March 31, so its a little confusing as to why they would mention something so misleading. 

[KLUME777]

Persephone wrote...

Lesdeth wrote...

Also, what promotions did DAO have when it was released?

God awful "This is the new sh*t" trailers for one. (Completely misleading trailers like "Urn of Sacred Ashes" aside...)

I liked that trailer (Violence trailer introduced me to the game).

[Maria Caliban]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

'sold in more than X' also makes no grammatical sense.

Yes, it does. Unless you're referring to the your removal of the subject in that sentence.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 05 mai 2011 - 07:20 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Persephone wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Fascinating....

If this were a thread about DAO 2 months after it's release we'd have "YAY!" and "Go Bioware!" etc. answers throughout this thread.

RAWR DA2 MUST BASH.

:lol::lol::lol:

I'd be a lot more impressed with this thread if it wasnt so blatantly obvious that people are upset that it sold at all.

EDIT: And by that I mean, a thinly-veiled attempt at calling other people stupid for the high crime of liking something they don't.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 05 mai 2011 - 10:30 .

[brigantine]

That is awesome DAII some over 2-million! While the game was not perfect it was a really fun game. I look forward to the DLC, expansions, and ultimately DAIII.

[AkiKishi]

Key word here is sold in.

That's just a slightly more misleading way of saying shipped.

The linked article should really correct that it's quite misleading. I'll see if I can find the original thread and add it in. But not making too much effort.

http://social.biowar...1/index/7296827

Modifié par BobSmith101, 05 mai 2011 - 11:03 .

[Sister Helen]

Yawn. Who cares how many were shipped/sold/reported/whatever? I play games to get away from accounting and real life work. I'd rather kill abominations, to be honest.

Bored now.

[Dubya75]

Rockpopple wrote...

http://www.gamespot....ge-2/index.html
http://pc.ign.com/ob...061/061075.html
http://www.1up.com/g...origins/review/

Hm? Oh, I just thought posting links of user reviews looked like fun. Didn't know why these were left out of the party, though. Huh. Strange. Ah well.

Well played popple! 

[GammaRayJim]

The Gamespot link that Rockpopple put up actually says shipped and not sold. The OP arcticle uses the sold in phrase. VGChartz is reporting up to week 7 at 1.3 million, which means they would have had to have sold 700,000 copies in week 8 to reach that figure. If you look at those charts sales have dramatically fallen off as the weeks went by so selling 700,000 in week 8 seems highly unlikely. It is probably true that they shipped 2 million copies and got whatever it cost the store to purchase them.

[Tommy6860]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

Also remember, DA:O PC sales were estimated to be over 2 million alone.

.

That's much too high really, especially if you're going to reference VG as the sample. Considering (by VG's own stats) that Origins on just the 360 sold over 2m, would mean that PC sales probably would be lucky to hit 1m.  But since you referenced VG, according to that site, Origins hasn't sold 400K yet.

VGChartz has completely buggered up the DA:O sales.

EA made an official statement some time ago which said something along the lines of:

"DA:O has sold 3.2 million copies across ALL platforms".

Somehow, VGChartz took this to mean 'Across the 360 and PS3 platforms' and immediately adjusted their figures so that 360 sales were 2m and PS3 were 1.2m

Meaning, the PC sold 0 copies. 

I believe Bioware also made an official statement some time ago which said that for Origins, the PC was the best selling platform (it sold more copies individually than the 360 and PS3 did, but not more than the 360 and PS3 combined).

That 3.2m claim is well over a year old by the way, as it was officiallly posted 3 months after Origins release. As you have correctly mentioned though, those numbers are still "sold in" in meaning.. Anyway, Origins has sold quite a bit more since then, especially when you include the UE that came out last year. I think it would be safe to assume Origins has sold quite a bit more since that press release, and if that's the case, that would fit right in with VGs numbers. The PC platform never sells anywhere near what consoles do when a game is multi-platform. Anyway, I don't really count VG as a reliable source, but if one can make consistency from the numbers, then one can get a plausible idea of sales as they present them.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Sister Helen wrote...

Yawn. Who cares how many were shipped/sold/reported/whatever? I play games to get away from accounting and real life work. I'd rather kill abominations, to be honest.

Bored now.

You have to understand that semantic arguments are all they have left.  They are clinging hard.  :lol:  They're refusing to acknowledge that if EA shipped the game to a retailer... the retailer bought those games.

Fact:  There are no other games like BG/NWN/DAO out in the world.
Fact:  If there's a market for something, someone will make a product to meet that market.
Fact:  There's no market for RPGs presented in the BG/NWN/DAO style, that cannot also be satisfied by presentations like DA2, which is going to appeal to more players.

Some individuals are going to demand the old tropes return:  combat always be tactical, loot always by boring, and there be twelve different dialogue choices in each conversation (despite 80% of the players never chosing more than the first five).

Ultimately, the changes in DA2 are generational.  We're going to see if RPGs remain a genre that I'll continue to buy (DA2), or fade into obsucrity (DAO) .