616 réponses à ce sujet

[Babli]

Alienmorph wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

Of course ME2 was a hugely success, because it was primarily a shooter game with water downed RPG mechanics and that is the point I'm trying to make. RPG genre at core isn't as profitiable as shooter games and FPS games. That is why EA is wanting Bioware to position ME as not a hybrid Action-RPG game that the series was supposed to be where the game is 50% RPG and 50% Shooter. No, they are transforming ME into a Shooter game, that just happens to have RPG elements....85% Shooter and 15% RPG which ISNT what the ME trilogy was supposed to be about.

Bioware 1998-2007
RIP

Ok, so you're just an RPG hipster. Case solved. Go back to play D&D, enjoy thinking you're smarter that who plays Halo only because your game has harder rules and don't bother us.

I like Mass Effect AND Halo games both. And I agree with Jazz. EA influence is more then obvious and I dont like it.. Can you accept our opinion?

[nelly21]

Alienmorph wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

Of course ME2 was a hugely success, because it was primarily a shooter game with water downed RPG mechanics and that is the point I'm trying to make. RPG genre at core isn't as profitiable as shooter games and FPS games. That is why EA is wanting Bioware to position ME as not a hybrid Action-RPG game that the series was supposed to be where the game is 50% RPG and 50% Shooter. No, they are transforming ME into a Shooter game, that just happens to have RPG elements....85% Shooter and 15% RPG which ISNT what the ME trilogy was supposed to be about.

Bioware 1998-2007
RIP

Ok, so you're just an RPG hipster. Case solved. Go back to play D&D, enjoy thinking you're smarter that who plays Halo only because your game has harder rules and don't bother us.

Funny side note. I posted a response a few months ago mocking the rpg elitists and I included the same melodramatic closing.

Also Jazz, you seem to have a ridiculous amount of insider information (considering that you apparently know what ME was supposed to be about to a greater extent than Bioware themselves).

Modifié par nelly21, 05 mai 2011 - 02:36 .

[PlumPaul93]

One of the things I thought was quite humorous about this is that they want to make the game appeal to more people so they want to cut some things out right? Then why in the world will mineral scanning in some capacity make a return then? That was quite possibly the worst thing about ME2.

[MajesticJazz]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
This was already stated in the GI article--the combat has to be on par with Gears of War and other shooter games. ME3 will have better pew pew. Stop acting so shocked.

So if they are trying to position ME3 to be more on par with GoW and other shooter games, how come they can't position ME3 to be more on par with other core RPG games?
------------------------------------------------------

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Thank God, the accursed inventory won't be making a return?

I think we can both agree that ME1's combat sucked. It was annoying and just plain out annoying. However Bioware saw the flaws of the combat and really took time out of the day to make it better for ME2 and by extention, ME3. They didn't just imply drop the combat because it was so bad, they improved upon it. So how come they couldn't keep an inventory for ME2 and just improve on it? Some of the major complaints of the ME1 inventory were:

1. For the console version (Xbox 360) it was frustrating to exit out of as there was no simple button such as "B" to take you out. Instead, you would have to scroll all the way up to the top and re-select your current item for you to be taken out. That was time consuming and frustrating.

Solution: Just add a button to instantly take you out of the screen.

2. We could not see how certain items would upgrade our armour/weapons. Yes, we would have the stats for an item that said +5% Damage and +15% Heat Damping, but those were just raw numbers that didn't really translate to how this would change the landscape of the weapon. I could go more into this but that is for another time.

Solution: Just create a system that better explains these stats and how they can affect your weapon positively and negatively. There was a thread about this a long time ago explaining how Bioware could do such thing, but I do not feel like looking for it.

3. There were too many of the similar type of armors, weapons, mods. So you would have a list of 20 Assault Rifles, but most of them are the same in terms of stats so when you really break it down, you only have 3-4 weapon variants instead of 20.

Solution: Bioware should just have more selection of weapons/armor/mods that are not very similar to each other. That way instead of having 20 Assault Rifles where only 2-4 are actually different. They would have 20 ARs where all 20 are actually different. Anyone who has played classic RPGs would know that this is possible. Bioware did this with KOTOR, NWN, and BG.....so why can't they do it with ME?

-----------------------------------------------------------

AdmiralCheez wrote...
A shooter where I get to create my own character, choose how to improve my skills and weaponry, immerse myself in a fascinating universe with a Bioware-level cast, and drive the plot with decisions that carry over from game to game?
Dude, I would play the sh*t out of that game. I don't care what genre it is.

I do (and I'm not the only one).

Again, I said this the other day in a seperate thread about how I believe it is just a simple case of generation clash. I have been a Bioware fan/gamer since 2002. I come from an era where EVERYTHING Bioware put out was made specifically for RPG fans. They weren't trying to branch out to appeal to the FPS crowd or the 3rd Person Shooter crowd. They knew who their fans were and they developed games for them. They knew that there was more money to be made if they went into the FPS/3rd Person Shooter market, but they denied more profit for more respect from their fans. This is why up until about the EA/Bioware deal, Bioware was literally treated like RPG Gods within the industry. Bioware was to the Western RPG market what SquareSoft was to the JRPG market back in the 1990s. They were untouchable and nobody would DARE to say something negative about Bioware or their games.

Baulder's Gate, Neverwinter Knights, and KOTOR didn't have divided fanbases like DA2 and ME2 does and that should tell you something. Bioware was the cool and hip independant developer that gave the finger to profit hungry publishers like EA. Now look at them, everything a game releases you have a divided reations. You'll have people (such as yourself) praising the game for its cool combat while you'll have others (such as myself) who scratches their head and wants to know why I am playing a shooter with RPG elements instead of an equally balanced Shooter/RPG.

That throws me back at my initial comment......if Bioware wants the combat/action to be more on par with core shooter games such as Gears of War and Uncharted, then how come they cannot do the same and allow the RPG elements to be more on par with core RPG games?
---------------------------------------------------------

There are 3 ways in which you can look at it:

1. It is a Shooter game AND RPG game in which both mechanics are equally distributed (This is what it was supposed to be like)

2. It is a RPG game and Shooter game in which the RPG elements clearly out-weigh the shooter elements (look at Deus Ex 1)

3. It is a Shooter game and RPG game in which the Shooter elements clearly out-weigh the RPG elements (What ME2/ME3 is)

The ME trilogy was supposed to be like option #1 but it is now becoming more like option #3. Why?

Modifié par MajesticJazz, 05 mai 2011 - 02:38 .

[hawat333]

What you say makes sense. But also, an RPG elitist complaining about a said-to-be RPG developer slowly losing RPG aspects also makes sense.
We have to accept that it's an action/RPG. In the first game, the second part got more emphasis, in the second, the first part got it. I hope it will be balanced in the third one.
And yes, I'm an RPG elitist too, on the other hand, I also enjoy games like the Portal series.
And chess. Also basketball, however I'm starting to get a bit old for that. So I stick with chess.

[Alienmorph]

Babli wrote...

Alienmorph wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

Of course ME2 was a hugely success, because it was primarily a shooter game with water downed RPG mechanics and that is the point I'm trying to make. RPG genre at core isn't as profitiable as shooter games and FPS games. That is why EA is wanting Bioware to position ME as not a hybrid Action-RPG game that the series was supposed to be where the game is 50% RPG and 50% Shooter. No, they are transforming ME into a Shooter game, that just happens to have RPG elements....85% Shooter and 15% RPG which ISNT what the ME trilogy was supposed to be about.

Bioware 1998-2007
RIP

Ok, so you're just an RPG hipster. Case solved. Go back to play D&D, enjoy thinking you're smarter that who plays Halo only because your game has harder rules and don't bother us.

I like Mass Effect AND Halo games both. And I agree with Jazz. EA influence is more then obvious and I dont like it.. Can you accept our opinion?

Off course I can, but then don't make everything like something catastrophic happened. You really think that it's all EA's fault and that without them BW will still make only old-school RPGs? Sofware houses evolve with time, as everything else. You can't like it and disagree with what they do now, but please, let's talk about this in sensed way, instead of writing a tragedy!

[Darth Death]

terrordactyl1 wrote...

 Looks like it's getting dumbed down, just like DA2 was. No more RPG's from Bioware, EA have screwed everything up..This will just be another COD in space, how boring.

Don't know why people hate COD so much. Its fun and captures what games are design for. There meant to be enjoyed, not hated (depending on what genre you like). Games are also not meant for individuals to feel more intelligent or superior than others, people make it that way unfortunately. 

[MajesticJazz]

Alienmorph wrote...


Off course I can, but then don't make everything like something catastrophic happened. You really think that it's all EA's fault and that without them BW will still make only old-school RPGs? Sofware houses evolve with time, as everything else. You can't like it and disagree with what they do now, but please, let's talk about this in sensed way, instead of writing a tragedy!

Watch this:



I think there is some similarities what happened with metal music of the 80s and what is happening to the core RPG genre of today.

[OssieZero]

nelly21 wrote...

Funny side note. I posted a response a few months ago mocking the rpg elitists and I included the same melodramatic closing.

I wouldn't think of it as elitism. It's a preference, and some long-time Bioware fans do feel betrayed.

Imagine you regularly eat at a Thai restaurant that makes the best Thai food you've ever tasted. Really delicious stuff that you can't get anywhere else. Then one day you turn up for dinner and they're serving cheeseburgers. So you ask the manager and he tells you that everyone likes cheeseburgers and not everyone likes Thai food.  Now I love cheeseburgers, but I can get them anywhere, and I can't get good quality Thai food anywhere else. So I'm understandably a little but put out.

[MartinDN]

And while i hope this is all trivial banter to the investors about the release date etc etc, i really do hope that EA is not meddling AGAIN, i hope they have learned there lesson about screwing with the fanbase from spore.

Me1 story was paced very well, the side quests, choices, characters were all very good, but i bet many others who have played this game into double digits like myself will say that the shooting aspect of the game, or rather the parts that didnt involve rpg elements was very tedious, especially the mako and "action" sequences. Now in ME2 they i felt they concentrated more on the combat, rather than keeping the parts of me1 that excelled, like the rpg elements or the story, or something as simple as making the squadmate interaction as fun.

For Me3 all they need to do is combine both games, the much more improved combat from me2 with VERY few tweaks, along with a skill tree that has as much depth, or atleast close to what me1's was, and general rpg aspects of the franchise that we all love, i imagine if they dont bioware will literally see a biproduct of the human system hitting there fan if they cater to the FPS crowd over rpg fans, especially on this forum. But heres hoping they dont do that, casey hudson seemed a standup guy in that interview, and seemed to be taking the game in the right direction, and i know i would believe the lead designer over some ceo talking to investors anyday.

Modifié par MartinDN, 05 mai 2011 - 02:47 .

[AdmiralCheez]

@MajesticJazz: I guess I'm just going to have to disagree with you, here.  I understand what you like in games and why, but to be honest I never liked "hardcore" RPGs.  I love customization and character-building, but I hate it when there's such a massive learning curve that you can't just pick it up and play it.

I hate to use Pokémon as an example, but it really shows how one can balance ease of access with mechanical complexity.  It's simple enough that an eight-year-old can play it and do well, but with enough stats, variables, and customization opportunities that you can spend hours and hours developing the perfect competitive team.

Compare that to, say, D&D, where you have to read six manuals and spend three hours in front of a character creation sheet before you even get started.

[Blarty]

MajesticJazz wrote...

That is why EA is wanting Bioware to position ME as not a hybrid Action-RPG game that the series was supposed to be where the game is 50% RPG and 50% Shooter. No, they are transforming ME into a Shooter game, that just happens to have RPG elements....85% Shooter and 15% RPG which ISNT what the ME trilogy was supposed to be about.

And you have proof of these statistics?

[ExtremeOne]

MartinDN wrote...

And while i hope this is all trivial banter to the investors about the release date etc etc, i really do hope that EA is not meddling AGAIN, i hope they have learned there lesson about screwing with the fanbase from spore.

Me1 story was paced very well, the side quests, choices, characters were all very good, but i bet many others who have played this game into double digits like myself will say that the shooting aspect of the game, or rather the parts that didnt involve rpg elements was very tedious, especially the mako and "action" sequences. Now in ME2 they i felt they concentrated more on the combat, rather than keeping the parts of me1 that excelled, like the rpg elements or the story, or something as simple as making the squadmate interaction as fun.

For Me3 all they need to do is combine both games, the much more improved combat from me2 with VERY few tweaks, along with a skill tree that has as much depth, or atleast close to what me1's was, and general rpg aspects of the franchise that we all love, i imagine if they dont bioware will literally see a biproduct of the human system hitting there fan if they cater to the FPS crowd over rpg fans, especially on this forum. But heres hoping they dont do that, casey hudson seemed a standup guy in that interview, and seemed to be taking the game in the right direction, and i know i would believe the lead designer over some ceo talking to investors anyday.

    




EA owns the Mass Effect Ip and Bioware so guess what EA can do what ever they wish with it .  

[MajesticJazz]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Compare that to, say, D&D, where you have to read six manuals and spend three hours in front of a character creation sheet before you even get started.

I didn't read 6 manuals and spend 3 hours in front of a character creation sheet before I started NWN.

Besides, you are dodging my question: If Bioware/EA wants to focus on making ME3's combat more on par with core shooter games such as GOW and Uncharted, then how come they cant have similar focus on making ME3's RPG elements more on par with core RPG games in terms of stats, customization, crafting, exploration etc.....

[aridor1570]

MajesticJazz wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Compare that to, say, D&D, where you have to read six manuals and spend three hours in front of a character creation sheet before you even get started.

I didn't read 6 manuals and spend 3 hours in front of a character creation sheet before I started NWN.

Besides, you are dodging my question: If Bioware/EA wants to focus on making ME3's combat more on par with core shooter games such as GOW and Uncharted, then how come they cant have similar focus on making ME3's RPG elements more on par with core RPG games in terms of stats, customization, crafting, exploration etc.....

If you've seen the ME2 reviews, you would understand why,if ME2 suceeded withought those things, whats the point in bringing them in?

[Bad King]

mangiraffedog000 wrote...

OK this is how Man-Giraffe-Dog came to be:


Excelsior!

You're lying, that's a giraffe screwing a donkey not a dog. Pics or it didn't happened.

Anyway, back on topic I think that making a game more accessible to other audiences is fine to a degree, but if EA go too far they'll end up screwing up and the game will be badly reviewed leading to worse sales.

From what I've seen and heard though, I don't think that will happen with ME3.

Modifié par Bad King, 05 mai 2011 - 02:58 .

[Darth Death]

aridor1570 wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Compare that to, say, D&D, where you have to read six manuals and spend three hours in front of a character creation sheet before you even get started.

I didn't read 6 manuals and spend 3 hours in front of a character creation sheet before I started NWN.

Besides, you are dodging my question: If Bioware/EA wants to focus on making ME3's combat more on par with core shooter games such as GOW and Uncharted, then how come they cant have similar focus on making ME3's RPG elements more on par with core RPG games in terms of stats, customization, crafting, exploration etc.....

If you've seen the ME2 reviews, you would understand why,if ME2 suceeded withought those things, whats the point in bringing them in?

Finally, someone who gets itB)

[aridor1570]

Bad King wrote...

mangiraffedog000 wrote...

OK this is how Man-Giraffe-Dog came to be:


Excelsior!

You're lying, that's a giraffe screwing a donkey not a dog. Pics or it didn't happened.

Anyway, back on topic I think that making a game more accessible to other audiences is fine to a degree, but if EA go too far they'll end up screwing up and the game will be badly reviewed leading to worse sales.

From what I've seen and heard though, I don't think that will happen with ME3.

Exactly, the GI article proves they are adding more RPG elements and adding some mechanics to the gameplay, and its already stated its not that drastic.

[Blarty]

The problem here is straight up FUD....

No-one really knows what's going on except Bioware and EA, and no doubt we'll know a bit more the next few weeks, and then it'll be E3, and so on and so on..... stop having kittens over this... you haven't spent your money on ME3 yet, if when it's released you find the changes a reprehensible abomination, then don't buy it, and take some smugness with you from feeling you've made some personal stand....

....But there is no reason whatsoever to get all uppity about it now, and I bet I'm not the only one, that doesn't want to have to put up with pages and pages of the forums filled with this unsubstantiated rumour, that, for the moment, amounts to twaddle

[nelly21]

Darth Death wrote...

[Don't know why people hate COD so much. Its fun and captures what games are design for. There meant to be enjoyed, not hated (depending on what genre you like). Games are also not meant for individuals to feel more intelligent or superior than others, people make it that way unfortunately. 

It's become apparent to me that rpg elitists believe themselves to be holding some sort of "last stand". They have this apocalyptic view that rpgs are dying out everywhere and they are the proud few holding the line.

Which is nonsense.

Dragon Age, Fallout, The Witcher, Diablo, The Elder Scrolls. Are these franchises dying? No.

Is there any less hype surrounding releases like Deus Ex: Human Revolution or Reckoning? No.

But then, they'll slam all these titles and claim that they're watered down versions of the "glory years". Doesn't matter. Sitting down and reading their silly arguments is the most entertainment I get at work.

[AdmiralCheez]

MajesticJazz wrote...

I didn't read 6 manuals and spend 3 hours in front of a character creation sheet before I started NWN.

Yeah, well I had to put down DA:O after only three hours of gameplay.

Besides, you are dodging my question: If Bioware/EA wants to focus on making ME3's combat more on par with core shooter games such as GOW and Uncharted, then how come they cant have similar focus on making ME3's RPG elements more on par with core RPG games in terms of stats, customization, crafting, exploration etc.....

Because shooters are more marketable and easier for the average customer to pick up and start playing.  A niche audience will only bring in so much profit.  Additionally, ME2's success has led them to conclude that better pew pew is the way to go.  However, RPG elements are not going to be ignored--Casey Hudson stated repeatedly that there will be more modding and deeper skill trees.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Dasher1010 wrote...

This means that all abilities and leveling up will be stripped from the game and ME3 is being retooled into a pure shooter.

^ That or it'll have 1% rpg and that's it. Of course that's why it got delayed either that or someone broke too many test consoles over there at EA and they need to buy more so they can get back to testing for bugs. Just so BW knows I want RPG not shooter go back to how ME was not how ME2 was. I'll be even more disappointed if its shooter and the rpg and character development doesn't beat the shooter elements into the ground.

[Galad22]

Darth Death wrote...

Don't know why people hate COD so much. Its fun and captures what games are design for. There meant to be enjoyed, not hated (depending on what genre you like). Games are also not meant for individuals to feel more intelligent or superior than others, people make it that way unfortunately. 

Not everyone like COD, I certainly don't. If ME3 goes into that direction that game won't be for me. And after DA2 who here can still have blind trust that Biowares game are always excellent. I atleast won't make the mistake of pre-purchasing Bioware games anymore until I know if they are actually good.

[ExtremeOne]

well its clear EA has a new plan for it franchises

http://www.gamasutra..._To_Offense.php