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[RyuGuitarFreak]

Evercrow wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

They're getting of P/R system then?

Is it a bad thing?

I don't think they are. It's too tied with all that story choices and consequences deal. Oh, and it's much easier to use with the dialogue wheel

I made that assumption because the only stats outside of combat that I could remember in ME2 were the P/R system points.

[Nozybidaj]

Scimal wrote...
Maybe ME1 and ME2 are RPGs - which would mean that the genre has suddenly seen an influx of new customers waiting to experience similar venues. Maybe ME1 and ME2 are RPGs and BioWare is experimenting with the genre, not destroying it. Maybe there's a flip side which leads to less dissapointment and more appreciation for games as games and not as shining examples of an idealized definition.

You can call your banana an orange all you want.  I can still look at it and know it is really a banana.

I agree that BW isn't "destroying it(the genre)", they are just working outside of it.  The fact that they still want to call it an rpg is beside the point, and a little perplexing actually.  The fact that folks on this forum will rationalize anything BW says as gospel is even more beside the point.

"enrich the role-playing aspects of the game" is just new PR speak for "streamlining" which was already PR speak for "dumbing down".  In the end this is just another step forward for BW away from making rpg games, which in and of itself isn't a bad thing.  You find these clashes and controversies mostly because folks who want a certain kind of game still believe that BW wants to make rpg's because they still put "RPG" on the box. I don't thnk the term rpg really means anything to BW anymore. /shrug

In fact they would probably moves themselves closer to their goal if they just stopped using it all together.

[Nohvarr]

en·rich/enˈriCH/Verb


1. Improve or enhance the quality or value of: "her exposure to museums enriched her life in France".

2. Add to the nutritive value of (food) by adding vitamins or nutrients: "cereal enriched with extra oat bran".

[Minister of Sound]

I really think this just means that they are only focusing on attack skills, and getting rid of that one class skill that provides bonuses to damage and health.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Nozybidaj wrote...

I agree that BW isn't "destroying it(the genre)", they are just working outside of it.  The fact that they still want to call it an rpg is beside the point, and a little perplexing actually.

Not nearly so much as Capcom calling Resident Evil 4 and Resident Evil 5 "survival horror" games.

Also, I'm having trouble drawing the link to "dumbing down" when what they're really talking about is more like meeting things halfway between full-blown RPG mechanics (ME1) and what might actually be called "dumbed down" (ME2). Since you're going back up in this case, "dumbing down" seems a bit inappropriate.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 06 mai 2011 - 06:01 .

[Nozybidaj]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

I agree that BW isn't "destroying it(the genre)", they are just working outside of it.  The fact that they still want to call it an rpg is beside the point, and a little perplexing actually.

Not nearly so much as Capcom calling Resident Evil 4 and Resident Evil 5 "survival horror" games.

hah   Well, at least we know this isn't just an issue with BW.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 06 mai 2011 - 06:02 .

[sponge56]

good God everyone chill out, some of you people make me ashamed to even be a member on here.
1) even though we have had many interviews in magazines about how they are going to BRING BACK more rpg elements, people take one look at something which seems to contradict this (even though it does not) and start yelling like lunatics
2) many people seem to believe that the definition of an rpg is fixed, it is not. If you believe that it is about character development, customization and interaction then mass effect is a perfect one. However people are suggesting that to be an rpg you need lists of customizable items and add ons. If this is the case, then by your logic Call of Duty multiplayer is an rpg...

[Savber100]

So what's the lesson learned?

Bioware is moving on and creating different games.

Different games does not equate bad games just because the game is not to your tastes. Different games does not mean it' "HOORRIBLETH AND APPLETH TO RETURD CONSOLETH GAMERS!"


Don't define Bioware by a single genre --> RPG just as you don't define Valve by a single genre ---> FPS even though they have tend to focus around that genre.

Bioware wants to go appeal beyond the frat boy sitting in the basement to the more common gamer.

Modifié par Savber100, 06 mai 2011 - 06:16 .

[Paula Deen]

Same here, Priestly. Paragon and Renegade take care of getting discounts in stores and speech options. Other than that, I don't need to upgrade stats that let me walk around the Normandy %5 faster.

[ianmcdonald]

Savber100 wrote...

So what's the lesson learned?

Bioware is moving on and creating different games.

Different games does not equate bad games just because the game is not to your tastes. Different games does not mean it' "HOORRIBLETH AND APPLETH TO RETURD CONSOLETH GAMERS!"


Don't define Bioware by a single genre --> RPG just as you don't define Valve by a single genre ---> FPS even though they have tend to focus around that genre.

Bioware wants to go appeal beyond the frat boy sitting in the basement to the more common gamer.

Exactly. Who says Bioware games have to adhere to a strict formula? Could you imagine how boring their games would get?

[eye basher]

I feel shocked that even now people think that RPG means loot,levels and stats i'm guessing no one ever played D&D.

[Ahglock]

eye basher wrote...

I feel shocked that even now people think that RPG means loot,levels and stats i'm guessing no one ever played D&D.

If any RPG centered around loot, levels, and stats it was D&D.  

[candidate88766]

eye basher wrote...

I feel shocked that even now people think that RPG means loot,levels and stats i'm guessing no one ever played D&D.

While the deifintion of an RPG doesn't mean loot or levels or stats they are generally seen as staples, possibly even requirements, of the genre. Whether they're required for a game to be good is personal opinion.

[kalwren]

Nohvarr wrote...

en·rich/enˈriCH/Verb


1. Improve or enhance the quality or value of: "her exposure to museums enriched her life in France".

2. Add to the nutritive value of (food) by adding vitamins or nutrients: "cereal enriched with extra oat bran".

Yeah, but for who?

Will the RPG aspects be "enriched" for RPG players or for Shooter fans?

Enriching for a shooter fan is streamlining how the RPG aspects work. Which is the opposite of what RPG fans want.

The statement is vague... Just as vague as the statments they made during the development of ME2.

You cant blame certain gamers for being concerned over this type of dialogue.

Modifié par kalwren, 06 mai 2011 - 06:34 .

[Nohvarr]

What D&D were you playing? My DM kept us hoping with stories and fantastic quests. I had to submit 4 to 6 pages of background before he'd even let me make a character for a campaign. Loot was nice but pushing our teams story forward was the real reward.

The day my slave earned his rights as a freeman outshone any loot I ever acquired.

[kalwren]

Nohvarr wrote...

What D&D were you playing? My DM kept us hoping with stories and fantastic quests. I had to submit 4 to 6 pages of background before he'd even let me make a character for a campaign. Loot was nice but pushing our teams story forward was the real reward.

The day my slave earned his rights as a freeman outshone any loot I ever acquired.

That’s another circumventing the issue argument. We aren’t debating what PnP we all played in our youth, we're debating how complex we'd like the RPG systems to be in ME3. 

Modifié par kalwren, 06 mai 2011 - 06:40 .

[Nohvarr]

kalwren wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

en·rich/enˈriCH/Verb


1. Improve or enhance the quality or value of: "her exposure to museums enriched her life in France".

2. Add to the nutritive value of (food) by adding vitamins or nutrients: "cereal enriched with extra oat bran".

Yeah, but for who?

Will the RPG aspects be "enriched" for RPG players or for Shooter fans?

Enriching for a shooter fan is streamlining how the RPG aspects work. Which is the opposite of what RPG fans want.

The statement is vague... Just as vague as the statments they made during the development of ME2.

You cant blame certain gamers for being concerned over this type of dialogue.

Now you're impying something that was not said in the original statement. The statement is only vague in that it doesn't go into detail on their plans. The words are plain, I've given you the definitions. Asking if they meant enriched for shooter or rpg's fans is an attempt to find away justification for a pre-existing belief despite information to the contrary.

If you think Bioware is lying, just say so, don't try to twist their words to validate your beliefs.

[kalwren]

Nohvarr wrote...

kalwren wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

en·rich/enˈriCH/Verb


1. Improve or enhance the quality or value of: "her exposure to museums enriched her life in France".

2. Add to the nutritive value of (food) by adding vitamins or nutrients: "cereal enriched with extra oat bran".

Yeah, but for who?

Will the RPG aspects be "enriched" for RPG players or for Shooter fans?

Enriching for a shooter fan is streamlining how the RPG aspects work. Which is the opposite of what RPG fans want.

The statement is vague... Just as vague as the statments they made during the development of ME2.

You cant blame certain gamers for being concerned over this type of dialogue.

Now you're impying something that was not said in the original statement. The statement is only vague in that it doesn't go into detail on their plans. The words are plain, I've given you the definitions. Asking if they meant enriched for shooter or rpg's fans is an attempt to find away justification for a pre-existing belief despite information to the contrary.

If you think Bioware is lying, just say so, don't try to twist their words to validate your beliefs.

I'm only implying because the language isn’t clear. If it was clear then I wouldn’t have the opportunity to imply anything.

[Nohvarr]

kalwren wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

What D&D were you playing? My DM kept us hoping with stories and fantastic quests. I had to submit 4 to 6 pages of background before he'd even let me make a character for a campaign. Loot was nice but pushing our teams story forward was the real reward.

The day my slave earned his rights as a freeman outshone any loot I ever acquired.

That’s another circumventing the issue argument. We aren’t debating what PnP we all played in our youth, we're debating how complex we'd like the RPG systems to be in ME3. 

Not all RPG's have levels, Shadowrun pnp, Deus Ex, World of Darkness, Vampire Bloodlines don't have levels. Deus Ex doesn't have physical stats.

I'm only implying because the language isn’t clear. If it was clear then I wouldn’t have the opportunity to imply anything.

Incorrect, people can make implication on clear language, they do it all the time in legal procedings, and politics. You're just using it here.

Modifié par Nohvarr, 06 mai 2011 - 06:51 .

[Ahglock]

Nohvarr wrote...

What D&D were you playing? My DM kept us hoping with stories and fantastic quests. I had to submit 4 to 6 pages of background before he'd even let me make a character for a campaign. Loot was nice but pushing our teams story forward was the real reward.

The day my slave earned his rights as a freeman outshone any loot I ever acquired.

Probably a very similar one.  Whether or not you have a good DM who can tell good stories though has nothing to do with the mechanics of D&D.  D&D is one of the most loot, stat,level based system out there.  They were very core to the elements of what made D&D, D&D mechanically.  Now a DM can feel free to ignore all of that and just focus on the story, but that is just cooperative story telling then.  The mechanics of D&D are and were very stat, level, and loot oriented.  

Even without levels the vast majority of RPGs use similar mechanics.  Shadowrun while it has no levels, is focused on stats and loot.(loot is primarily not found but paid to you).  And sure the levels aren't there but is a Karma system really that different.  You can spend points more fluidly, and not clumped in levels, but still the idea of advancement is the same.  

There are a couple RPGs without much of any of this, but there are shooters without a zoom function, or board games without whatever is in most board games.  

[Nohvarr]

But as you've just admitted, Mechanics can be done in a different fashion for RPGs. Mass Effects RPG elements/stats/portion/etc focused on combat as evrything fed back into that. ME 2 removed the RPG elements that were either getting in the way of or made little to no sense for a Third Person hybrid. Now they're addint back in the things that will enhance the game overall, but not detract from the fun of actually playing it, when a fight breaks out.

[AlanC9]

Ahglock wrote...
Probably a very similar one.  Whether or not you have a good DM who can tell good stories though has nothing to do with the mechanics of D&D.  D&D is one of the most loot, stat,level based system out there.  They were very core to the elements of what made D&D, D&D mechanically.  Now a DM can feel free to ignore all of that and just focus on the story, but that is just cooperative story telling then.  The mechanics of D&D are and were very stat, level, and loot oriented.  

The only thing I'd add to that is that when AD&D did have mechanics for role-playing, they tended to make the role-playing worse. The DMG specifically tells the DM to penalize players whose characters to not conform to class stereotypes. Don't know about later editions -- I never ran a 3.0+ game so I've hardly looked at the DMGs.

[Murmillos]

kalwren wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

What D&D were you playing? My DM kept us hoping with stories and fantastic quests. I had to submit 4 to 6 pages of background before he'd even let me make a character for a campaign. Loot was nice but pushing our teams story forward was the real reward.

The day my slave earned his rights as a freeman outshone any loot I ever acquired.

That’s another circumventing the issue argument. We aren’t debating what PnP we all played in our youth, we're debating how complex we'd like the RPG systems to be in ME3. 

I wouldn't say complex, I would say style of RPG.  I've played both story based and loot/skill based PRG D&D games.  But were great on their own standard - as long as the DM was creative to the aspect of the game they liked. 

The loot/skill games were about being creative with your charater in what they(you) would do in a situation, with the loot you've previously obtained; the creative detail in how your arrow would hit, axe would cleave, dagger would strike, traps you would dodge.

The story based games were more general party aspect games, in which you played and developed the creative style and aspect - the soul - of your charater.  You would spend more time banting with your other players then actual looting, fighting was very slim and quick. Arrow hits, loot is earned, and then back into the intertwined backstory your fellow players shared.

There are also the sucky DM that failed on all accounts - but that would be like playing a non bioware game.

[Ahglock]

Nohvarr wrote...

But as you've just admitted, Mechanics can be done in a different fashion for RPGs. Mass Effects RPG elements/stats/portion/etc focused on combat as evrything fed back into that. ME 2 removed the RPG elements that were either getting in the way of or made little to no sense for a Third Person hybrid. Now they're addint back in the things that will enhance the game overall, but not detract from the fun of actually playing it, when a fight breaks out.

Sure but there is always a tipping point where you remove or change enough mechanics and it is not really a CRPG anymore.  A lot of the things removed did not have to be removed to make sense for a 3rd person shooter hybrid.  Some of them are still there but implemented in a way that people might think sucks.  For example ME1 had a shooting skill system, people complained that a marine would know how to use guns.  Well if you had the profciency you knew how to use them fairly well, skills just made you awesome at them.  Without the assault rifle skill though being on your list, you just sucked hard.  ME2 did away with skills, but they also did away with you having the weapon which is just a streamlined way of saying you suck bad at using this gun.  And while the gun skills are gone some of it still remains in class passives and skills like AR.  

I kind of thik both methods sucked to some degree.  Both worked, but neither is awesome on the RPG side.  ME2 is at least better on the 3rd person shooter side of things.  I do think it got worse on the RPG side though overall.  I am not worried about the quote in the OP though, that was beyond vague.  

[AlanC9]

Nozybidaj wrote...
You can call your banana an orange all you want.  I can still look at it and know it is really a banana.

The thing is, banana has an accepted definition. RPG doesn't.