[quote]Gatt9 wrote...
Also @scimal[/quote]
Forgive me if I'm not as eloquent as my last post. I didn't sleep so well, but since you're addressing me, specifically, I'll give it a good reply. :-)
[quote]An RPG does have an accepted definition. Any RPG system you can name has a number of identical qualities, your character is defined, your character undergoes some form of progression, the game possesses mechanics to handle your character's qualities and reacts to them.[/quote]
You may find this surprising, but I agree with this definition of RPG.
My attempts in various threads, so far, have been trying point out that variations on each of these qualifiers exist, and that it seems to be only a small subset of the definition which some (many of which participate on these forums) consider to be an "RPG."
To put it more succinctly: Everybody has their preferences. This is fine with me, and everybody is always entitled to their opinion - but opinions are not facts. I have a wonderful example for you at the bottom of my post to demonstrate this.
[quote]You character is defined, through a series of stats. Wether it's SIWDCC or Sanity or something else, your character has some defining characteristics that constrain his abilities within his world.[/quote]
How many stats must be defined? You list Sanity, but it is a
single stat. Now, it's possible that you merely assumed I recognized it and applied my knowledge of CoC to fill in the holes... But Sanity is the
defining characteristic of the system.
Could you play a round of CoC where Sanity was the
only stat? I'd be willing to bet so, given the creativity of the players at large.
To that end, if there's just one stat which limits the ways the player can interact with other NPCs and the environment, and everything else you've mentioned so far about progression and the world responding to the character is present - is it still an RPG?
On the flip side, when do stats become too much? EVE Online is one example where a player could keep track of
dozens of skills, each affecting the character's capabilities in the EVE universe.
[quote] Further, your character has some form of class. Whether it's AD&D's system, or use based system, or background based system, your character has some form of basic template for skills he can do well, and those he cannot.[/quote]
What if these skills the character can perform are pre-defined? As a Grey Warden, the Hero of Ferelden could sense darkspawn and is one of the few who could slay the Archdemon to end the blight. In D&D, it might be a specialization open to any other class - but you cannot manipulate the capabilities of the Grey Warden as the player.
To that end, what if the skills that define the character rarely come into play, but are still present? How often must the skills of the character be used in order to "qualify" as an RPG? Once, twice, every 50' while in a dungeon? Does usefulness of a skill define the character, or merely the presence of one?
The spectrum is pretty vast, even among the "classic" RPGs.
[quote]Your character will progress, whether it's positive path such as D&D's levels and loot, or a use based system with ever-increasing skills, or a negative path such as declining sanity due to encounters. Every system has some form of progression that facilitates the end game.[/quote]
I heartily endorse this paragraph of yours. Through either levels (raising of stats), loot, abilities, skills, or the modification of some stat which allows the character to do (or not do) something they couldn't before or something they could but more efficiently - progression is achieved.
[quote]The game will recognize and react to your character's qualities, whether it's D&D's alignment/class system, or a background that limits your character's options in game such as detective/tourist.[/quote]
While it's possible to create a background to roleplay out of in the same game, I mostly agree with this "Element of an RPG" you described. What we may differ on is to the extent of the reaction and whether or not the limits placed on the character are the choice of the developers or of the player.
If a character spent an entire game developing a backstory, and in the second game the player spent a fair amount of time witnessing the reactions of NPCs to that backstory (despite it being out of the player's hands to create) - is the second game still an RPG?
[quote]This is the foundation upon which all RPGs are generated. Every RPG will possess these qualities in some form. To take on a Role, the Role must first be defined and the resulting constraints identified.[/quote]
You may have noticed that I asked a lot of hypotheticals this time around. I press the questions again and again not because I disagree with you, but I'm trying to make it abundantly clear that actually defining the point where an RPG turns into another genre is practically impossible.
Other genres have very succinct definitions. An FPS requires two things: That you be able to shoot something at something else, and that the perspective be in the First Person. RTS requires two things: That the game is not paused or played in turns, and that the focus of the game is on strategic placement of resources.
An RPG? An RPG, to many people and forumites, requires several paragraphs of delineations and explanations, including negative examples to compare to "actual RPGs", and only a vague sense of where boundaires sit.
I could define it with two characteristics, like other three-lettered genres. An RPG requires two things: That there is a role to play in a story, and that it be a game. However, most would vehemently disagree with me (and have). Unfortunately this is because the
genre monicker doesn't describe so much
how you play the game, but instead is a stand-in for subjective interpretations.
"RPG" is almost a blank slate, and it becomes hotly contested when there's an established, well-loved incarnation that finds itself at odds with other derivatives. Of course, popularity of one system over another will prompt developers to create more of that system in whatever medium they're working in, but the trap is to think that the popular definition is the
only definition.
[quote]This is in contrast to something that is oft-mistaken for an RPG, LARPs, they are not the same. A LARPs has a minimally defined character, the character has no intrinsic qualities, he is not superhumanly strong, or incredibly fast, because those qualities are determined by the LARPser's personal abilities. There's no progression, the person is the same on day 1 as he is on day 1000. There are qualities which the character is held to, but the way the game reacts is generally undefined and ad-libed, a character who turns from good to evil could suffer or not suffer on a whim, as there's no defined rules system, just that which is basically made up by whoever is participating.[/quote]
I won't make any significant comments on this paragraph. I know people who would disagree with you, but I recognize that there might be validity to both sides. I simply don't know enough about LARPing to form a confident opinion.
[quote]ME2 is not an RPG. Shepherd is
undefined, his strength, intelligence, dexterity, and all other qualities are identical in every instance. He doesn't
progress, there's nothing at the end of the game he cannot deal with at level 1, it just might take a little more ammunition.
His background is completely irrelevant, there is never a single point where his background does anything at all, it's something selected and then completely forgotten. In fact, it comes up just once in the first 10 minutes of the game, does nothing, and then is never seen again.[/quote]
Aha! Your biases betray you, good sir!
"You character is defined, through a series of stats...Wether it's SIWDCC or Sanity or something else...your character has some defining characteristics that constrain his abilities within his world."-The Paragon/Renegade system limits Shepard's capabilities. Having a high Paragon generally means a low Renegade, so actions which require high Renegade scores cannot be performed by Shepard. The Paragade/Renegade stats would be the "or something else" from the quote, as you made it clear that SIWDCC need not even be present for the game to be an RPG.
"Your character will progress, whether it's positive path such as D&D's levels and loot, or a use based system with ever-increasing
skills..."
-Shepard gains new abilitie and new weapons. Granted, the amplitude of the progression may not be particularly distinct from beginning to end, but that does not mean it's non-existent. Progression can simply mean that a character performs their role more efficiently (or occasionally less efficiently). Shepard may be able to take on the Collectors without a single upgrade purchased or ability point spent, but doing so certainly increases the efficiency at which Shepard performs the task.
"The game will recognize and react to your character's qualities..."
-Shepard's initial background doesn't have a particularly large impact (but is still present) in ME2. However, because we're talking about ME2, that means Shepard's background does include ME1. While the reactions may not be as overt or dramatic as some would prefer, Shepard's actions in ME1 did affect ME2. Whether or not you saved the Council is probably the easiest one to point out. Several characters will address that choice, specifically.
Again, maybe not to the extent some would wish, but that doesn't mean it's nonexistent.
[quote]Nor does the game react to his qualities in any way. I was a 100% paragon, kicked a guy off of a building randomly in the middle of a conversation without him even drawing a weapon, and...nothing. No one blinked an eye. I didn't lose any status, nothing. The game proceeds without any change.
ME2's not an RPG. This is the *exact* same response I would expect if I
were playing any given Adventure game, any given FPS/TPS. In an RPG,
I would've suffered some penalty, my comrades wouldn't have looked at
me the same, nor would people I met. The world would've
responded.[/quote]
Paragon and Renegade are not alignments, they are stats to describe what Shepard has done, not what Shepard will do. You assume the characters should react a certain way because your action was obviously at odds with your history - but the unfortunate truth is that the world responds to the exact extent that the developers can afford it. Perhaps BioWare chose that having compliments handed out in combat when you pull off a fine shot was worth more than a gasp from Tali or Kasumi.
Outside of little things, the world responds to Shepard's actions (and the "qualities" of Shepard - the Paragon or Renegade score, simply describe Shepard's actions over a length of time) - maybe not every single action, but many of them. The world responds to Shepard's background, both as an N7 military personnel, and as either the destroyer or savior of the Council. The world responds to actions that took place in the first game, which is part of Shepard's background, and certainly one of Shepard's "qualities" - as defined by
you.
[quote]Contrast that to Fallout, if I had gone around killing people without reason, I eventually end up being hunted. The game reacts to my choices. If I've never developed certain skills, I can't get certain events or IIRC even certain companions. [/quote]
These are two distinct thoughts.
1) The world would punish me for doing what it thought was wrong.
and
2) The mechanics would limit my interactions without a certain value in a certain skill.
Let's get the second out of the way, since if you don't have a high Renegade/Paragon score, you're instantly missing out on some conversation dialogue throughout the game. That's parallel to FO.
The first is addressed by the world itself. Shepard is initially a Spectre - practically untouchable in the civlized, law-abiding society, and in ME2 Shepard is a well-known badass working in the fringes of society where killing people without reason would only get you hunted down if one of the people was important.
[ME3 Spoilers!]
We also know that ME3 opens with Shepard
on trial for what happened in Arrival. Consequences are catching up to Shepard - it merely took a while to get there.
[End ME3 Spoilers!][quote]As far as the rest of what Scimal brought up, as I said, Paragon/Renegade doesn't define your character at all, there's no consequence for any option chosen, and TBH, all it does is occasionally give you one other line of dialogue.[/quote]
Paragon/Renegade define Shepard's past actions. The consequence for choosing one is that you don't choose the other. By going Paragon you miss out on Renegade dialogues. Though, Renegade choices often lead to broken hearts. <3
[quote] A 100% paragon can murder someone in could blood without the world taking notice. Nor do the loyalty missions define a Shepherd, everyone did them, everyone walked out of them with the same result with one possible exception, romances aren't defining either, you can romance Tali then go talk to Jack and tell her you're going to break it off with Tali on a whim. It's completely uncommited.[/quote]
The game doesn't let you murder some random person in cold blood. You can be a dick to people and not help them, and you can murder countless redshirts sent at you by enemies - but you cannot walk up to store owner and blow their head off. It's a built-in measure to enforce some sense of morality for Shepard and the player.
As for the romances... Well, that's yet to be seen. So far we are 2/3rds through Shepard's story. Making a statement about the lack of consequences seems a bit short-sighted - particularly when even ME2 warns you about it.
[quote]As far as your Shepherd being different than mine, no he isn't.[/quote]
Well, my current Shep is a dark-skinned woman... so...
She is different from yours so far.
[quote]You're assigning him qualities which the game does not recognize in any way, shape, or form.[/quote]
The way you've written the last few paragraphs almost has me believing you'd want to define the personality of Shepard through stats and then have the game roleplay for you.
Is the game itself not a veritable tribute to the small intangible qualities I described? You make are presented with a situation or choice and the bits of psychology you have given your Shepard determine which action or response you choose. Because resources are finite, not every action is carried out perfectly, and not every choice can be presented to the player.
[quote]It's all internalized, you could essentially do the same thing with Super Mario and get the same result, the game progresses without noticing or caring. Which is why you need to define a character, so that the game recognizes what you're doing and react to it. A RPG system would react to a 100% paragon murdering someone in cold blood, ME2 does not.[/quote]
A
human would react to that. Every RPG system is a crude approximation of reality with varying degrees of adherence. There are flaws in every one of them, and the only reason it can occur at the tabletop is because the DM is human.
The ability of a simulation to recognize an event wholly depends entirely on whether or not it was programmed to do so.
I'm not misunderstanding your intent, I'm saying that it's a limit of the medium. You
cannot expect a game to react like the D&D table. This has been a problem since Day 1, and will always be a problem until artificial intelligence catches up to human level intelligence.
By expecting the developers to forsee a
single situation in which you have a 33% shot at acting dramatically different than what the squadmates had come to experience from Shepard and program in a 2-second reaction shot seems folly to me when the game makes an otherwise above-average effort at having the world react to your choices.
[quote]Don't misunderstand, Role-playing is perfectly fine, but there's a massive difference between Role-playing and a Role Playing Game. RPing is essentially an undefined Role you take on and hold yourself to of your own free will, a RPG defines the character and holds you to that Role.[/quote]
Now you're just being silly.
If an RPG defines the character for you and holds you to that role, isn't ME2 a prime example because the game defines Shepard as an outstanding military personnel who's going to save (or condemn?) the galaxy?
What good are stats and skills if the role is already assigned? Isn't that
my point?
Unless you're talking about a game which defines the role but allows customization of the character to fill that role... But ME2 allows that as well to the extent BW could afford. Unless an RPG is defined by the
extent at which the customization occurs for the character to fill the pre-defined role.
However, you used Fall Out as an example, and I'm fairly sure that in FO you don't really have much of a
role outside of "survivor." I suppose that might qualify, though.
[quote]You could decide your character's an idiot, then get to a point where the only way to get the best weapon in the game is to have a conversation about quantum physics, and just let yourself break your role
just this once, because who's going to know and it'll be so much fun!
An RPG won't let you do that. If your character's an idiot, you're going to have to play out your Role without that weapon, or come up with some alternate means of getting it, such as killing for it, which could then intrude upon your character's defined personality.[/quote]
Man, I thought I was kidding before about the whole, "Want the game to roleplay for you" thing...
I see what you're getting at, even if I'm tired and my sarcasm is showing. You want the game to hold you accountable for the limits you placed on the character because you don't trust yourself to do it. The best way to do that is through lots of numbers that define such limits that the program will recognize.
Sure, but how does that make something an RPG? Why is the difference between RPG and something else self-control?
Granted, it makes a sort of interesting sense since self-control varies person to person, just as the definition of RPG does... but I just don't see how it connects.
[quote]In ME2's case, I shouldn't have an option to murder someone in cold blood...[/quote]
You usually don't. Try to assassinate anyone Udina, or Mouse.
[quote]...or if I do, I should suffer penalties for it. [/quote]
You have to fight more men and you gain Renegade points, which detracts from the total possible Paragon points you can achieve.
No, they're not particularly harsh penalties - but they exist.
[quote]If I'm 100% renegade, and I comfort someone, I should be perceived as going soft and suffer consequences. ME2 lets me just do whatever whenever.[/quote]
The R/P system is not a morality system. It is not a predictor of actions, merely a visual reference for past actions.
Would it be nice if the squaddies commented on actions that are drastically different from what you've done in the past? Yeah, sure. I won't begrudge that at all. It plays into our expectations, but just because the world only responds to us 80% of the time instead of 90% of the time doesn't seem enough to classify ME2 as another genre.
To sum up, here's my example I mentioned at the beginning. The three descriptions below are taken directly off of the websites of three games, with some additional comments by myself. It is a mix of games that includes
at least one RPG (but up to 3). See if you can identify the game genres, much less the games. The answers are below (and no points for Googling! <_<).
1 - "By taking the suspense, challenge and visceral charge of the original GAME and adding startling new realism and responsiveness, GAME opens the door to a world where the player’s presence affects
everything around him or her, from the physical environment to the
behaviors and even the emotions of both friends and enemies."
-The role is pre-defined, there are only two character stats, but progression via loot is present.
2 - "GAME is a very gritty, often bloody adventure with mature
themes. It has elements of traditional fantasy like heroes, villains,
and magic, but we're not pulling any punches - you're going to be
immersed in a brutal, dangerous, and sometimes shocking world."
-The role is pre-defined, the character is partialy-customizable, and progression is done via levels and loot.
3 - "Lead PROTAGONIST'S GROUP in their quest for vengeance and glory as they burn a path across the galaxy. You choose which missions to take, which story lines to complete, and where to invest your hard earned cash."
-The role is pre-defined. The character is pre-defined. There are 3 stats which define the character, and multiple abilities for the character. Progression is accomplished via the recruitment of allies and purchasing upgrades.
Want another hint and haven't Googled yet?
- They all sold more than 3.5 Million copies.
And here are the answers:
1 - Half-Life 2
2 - DA:O
3 - Starcraft 2
Modifié par Scimal, 07 mai 2011 - 07:17 .
Ce sujet est fermé
Retour en haut
