617 réponses à ce sujet

[candidate88766]

Murmillos wrote...

I guess you didn't play ME1, or havn't played in in the past 4 years.

The aiming reticle grew larger as you fired.  The larger the reticle, (and thus growing larger then the enemy at longer distances, the higher the chance the weapon wouldn't hit the target.  It had nothing to do with aiming.  If you pointed your reticle dead center on a body, with in 1 second 90% of the shots would automaticly miss.  Nothing the player could do about that, other then dump more points which deceased the growing of size of the reticle.

There was no auto aim in ME1 (PC version) - it was a anti-aim penalty in which you put points into to get rid of.

It was a stupid system and it had nothing to do with player skill.

Firstly, of course I played Mass Effect 1, although I haven't for about 6/7 months now. It is a fantastic game and is currently my 3rd/4th favourite of all time.

Secondly, the reticle growing larger as you shoot is a common feature of virtally every modern game that involves shooting. In most games, and in ME2, you learn to adapt to it - requiring skill. As you say thought, in ME1 players had no choice but to put points into the skill in order to be able to hit anything. The system gives the illusion of complexity by allowing the player to mess around with stats but in reality they have very little choice but to do so. It is a dumbed-down system - you feel like you're choosing ot increase the skill when really you don't have a lot of choice.

And finally, when you reach about mid-way throught the skill you can aim every weapon pretty well if you adapt to it. However, you can spend more points to essentially make the game do that for you: instead of learning and adapting to the recoil you tell the game to reduce it. I don't like using the phrase 'dumbed-down' but it seems fairly accurate here.

Also, I never said auto-aim was in it - just that it was in the original demos out around 2005. I can't remember what point I was trying to make by saying that though .

@OP: Bioware has said they're improving the RPG elements of ME3 along with the shooter elements. This thread seems full of people who are ignoring that.

Modifié par candidate88766, 07 mai 2011 - 01:17 .

[Obro]

darknoon5 wrote...

Obro wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Obro wrote...

 Well this is fu*king stupid. First you remove the role playing by making us play Shepard and now you even remove the roll playing by removing everything not combat related.

Why is this called RPG again?

They never said that, they said they removed "non-combat stats."

Besides paragon and renegade, I can't even think of any to begin with in ME1 or ME2. Paragon and renegade also suck. They hinder your ability to truly RP because as you haven't commited enough genocide/hugged enough kittens today you can't be slightly to mean to somebody/charm somebody into giving you informatiion.

Ye I agree on the paragon/renegade bullcrap. On my 1st playthrought of ME2 I couldn't stop mirranda and jack arguing so they got to upset to survive. That just stupid. 

So you ignore my first arguement and agree with my second?
I'm flattered:blush:

whoops didn't notice that I didn't respond to the 1st argument.

Well...I don't really know what they SAID but I know what they DID. For example in DA2 they did the same thing. When you're in the **** house and you are on that quest with blood mage prostitute that tries to mind controll you...I had whooping 10 willpower on my warrior and I resisted her with no problems. They just ....ignore everything not combat related. Hell they just put in one skill for talking to give the illusion of depth and that is it.

[SalsaDMA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Remember how when you leveled up your powers, swapped your armor around, or got an upgrade, it didn't really feel like it did anything?

That's what they're fixing here, it sounds like. Seems they want leveling up to finally mean something.

No reason to panic... yet.

I disagree with the 'jumpy' system you are suggesting.

It is unrealistic in the extreme. Gaming systems that do the gradual slope of small improvements that per level doesn't seem big, but taken over the entirity of the career is large, makes for far better immersion.

Joebob doesn't suddenly become a crackshot in the timespan of a single second just because he 'dinged'. Rather, Joebob slowly becomes better and better with shooting as time passes and he gets more experience.

[Walker White]

SalsaDMA wrote...


I disagree with the 'jumpy' system you are suggesting.

It is unrealistic in the extreme. Gaming systems that do the gradual slope of small improvements that per level doesn't seem big, but taken over the entirity of the career is large, makes for far better immersion.

So I take it that you are not a fan of (any edition of) Dungeons & Dragons.  Particularly the early ones where you could never level higher than 12th without cheating.

[candidate88766]

SalsaDMA wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Remember how when you leveled up your powers, swapped your armor around, or got an upgrade, it didn't really feel like it did anything?

That's what they're fixing here, it sounds like. Seems they want leveling up to finally mean something.

No reason to panic... yet.

I disagree with the 'jumpy' system you are suggesting.

It is unrealistic in the extreme. Gaming systems that do the gradual slope of small improvements that per level doesn't seem big, but taken over the entirity of the career is large, makes for far better immersion.

Joebob doesn't suddenly become a crackshot in the timespan of a single second just because he 'dinged'. Rather, Joebob slowly becomes better and better with shooting as time passes and he gets more experience.

True, but in the context of Mass Effect Shepard is already a decorated and experienced soldier - he/she should already be a pretty good shot.

[Someone With Mass]

Why where the stats so important again? Oh, they were supposed to make the player feel intelligent, apparently, when in reality, they contributed little to nothing in terms of gameplay.

[Obro]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Why where the stats so important again? Oh, they were supposed to make the player feel intelligent, apparently, when in reality, they contributed little to nothing in terms of gameplay.

Stats contributed little to nothing in terms of gameplay?
Derp some more bro. 

[darknoon5]

Obro wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Obro wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Obro wrote...

 Well this is fu*king stupid. First you remove the role playing by making us play Shepard and now you even remove the roll playing by removing everything not combat related.

Why is this called RPG again?

They never said that, they said they removed "non-combat stats."

Besides paragon and renegade, I can't even think of any to begin with in ME1 or ME2. Paragon and renegade also suck. They hinder your ability to truly RP because as you haven't commited enough genocide/hugged enough kittens today you can't be slightly to mean to somebody/charm somebody into giving you informatiion.

Ye I agree on the paragon/renegade bullcrap. On my 1st playthrought of ME2 I couldn't stop mirranda and jack arguing so they got to upset to survive. That just stupid. 

So you ignore my first arguement and agree with my second?
I'm flattered:blush:

whoops didn't notice that I didn't respond to the 1st argument.

Well...I don't really know what they SAID but I know what they DID. For example in DA2 they did the same thing. When you're in the **** house and you are on that quest with blood mage prostitute that tries to mind controll you...I had whooping 10 willpower on my warrior and I resisted her with no problems. They just ....ignore everything not combat related. Hell they just put in one skill for talking to give the illusion of depth and that is it.

Didn't rebut anything. Mass effect 1 and 2 have no non-combat stats except paragon+renegade as they are not classic RPG's like Dragon age, which is why it sucked DA2 didn't have as much emphasis on them.

[Someone With Mass]

Obro wrote...
Stats contributed little to nothing in terms of gameplay?
Derp some more bro. 

Lol, umad?

[Ostagar2011]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Why where the stats so important again? Oh, they were supposed to make the player feel intelligent, apparently, when in reality, they contributed little to nothing in terms of gameplay.

The stats are important to an RPG because they represent the character. In a typical FPS, you the player, represent the character.

If you like an RPG, then you optimize the stats and the strategy well, and your in-game character wins.
If you like an FPS, then you take aim (duck) yourself and if your reflexes are good, your in-game character wins.

ME is a sweet spot between RPG and FPS. Got the balance just right. I don't want stats removed or added. If you hate thevery  idea of stats, then it sounds like all you want is CoD with choices, or a Crysis 2 with dialog wheel.

Modifié par Ostagar2011, 07 mai 2011 - 01:26 .

[Someone With Mass]

All the stats did was to make my reticule so large I could barely hit anything, while in ME2, I could skip the whole based on pure luck thing and just shoot the guys.

Those stats were so unnecessary besides adding padding, it wasn't even funny.

[Murmillos]

Gatt9 wrote...
...  your character undergoes some form of progression,  the game possesses mechanics to handle your character's qualities and reacts to them.

I think this is the core mechanic of an RPG. Is just not the role you play (as in any game you "play a role"), but the measured continued growth of that role and how the world changes to that growth/change of your charater.

Skills/Stats are one way to shape your role. Why doesn't ME have a Combat/Tech/Biotic skill set?
[Combat shapes how well/often your weapon powers work]
[Tech shapes omnitool powers and hacking ability]
[Biotic shapes biotic strength, cool down times.. etc]
For some class, you are only going to dump most of your points into one (solider/engineer/adept); but for the Vanguards, Sentinels and Infiltrators - why can't we choose other thru points, if we are more focused on side of the tree or the other.  But for ME2, its just a simple a matter of what power is 4th level evolved and which ones are not.

ME1 may had a tad too much for its skill trees, but ME2 swung too much to the other side and was seriously lacking.



Loot/Inventory is another method of tracking growth. Depending on your class (Archer type for example here) You start off with a level 1 bow, barily enough to kill the bunnies that infest your starting garden, but by end the game, you end up with a rare and powerful dragon killing bow - enchanted by all types of magic. That is why loot is a popular form of tracking character growth. Many people like finding that weapon (if sometimes annoyingly) knowing that you won't equip it for another two levels, but when you do, that accomplishment of now being able to do so is the reward.
I will admit that this mechanic doesn't work to well when it comes to Shepard (MassEffect), but that still isn't to say loot can't be in the form of modified/updated weapons (prototypes); or other armor mods. At least knowing we can customize our weapons with new found objects (like our ME2 armor) is a positive step in the right direction.

Modifié par Murmillos, 07 mai 2011 - 01:33 .

[Someone With Mass]

Also, Mass Effect has never been an FPS. It's a TPS.

[Walker White]

Ostagar2011 wrote...


The stats are important to an RPG because they represent the character. In a typical FPS, you the player, represent the character.

My custom choice of powers and abilities represent my character, not the stats.  Point me to an FPS that has the range of customizable powers that ME does.

While all RPGs have some minor collection of stats (they at least have some way to represent health or a health-proxy), there are many, many pen-and-paper RPGs that de-emphasize them to use powers instead.

[Terror_K]

bald man in a boat wrote...

Jesus Christ, will you STFU Terror_K? You're such a complete and utter dinkhole, it's mind blowing and I'm going to be quite frank with you

You're a snob Kenneth. A RPG hipster, hypocrite and contrarian. It's boring. You'll nag, b!tch and moan about anything because that's what you do. You also can't take what I'm saying as insults either because what I'm saying is the truth. You just lack the balls to admit it.

It's sad to see somebody so full of BS. One thread has you stating that you're "done wih Bioware"  while another has you discussing new action figures. This thread has you crying about the loss of something that never existed in this series outside of Charm/Intimidate: non-combat related stats. W.T.F. You're here everyday. Are you done or not? 

Don't even try to use the old argument of "I'm here to be the voice of those who don't  like the direction of bla bla bla..." You claim to dislike the direction Bioware is headed in, yet the list of registered products grows under your name with each new release. 

You know what's truly shallow and dumbed-down? YOU. Shallow because if a game doesn't have Kenny's magic formula it's for mainstreamers and morons. Dumbed-down because you're too much of an arrogant ignoramus to pull your head out of your arse long enough to see anything, any other way. The reason you'e unsatisfied is because your own mind set prevents you from moving forward and embracing change.

Bottom line here is that you're hilarious. A novelty t-shirt. Suck on that for a while and have a nice day.

Go ahead... just prove my point more and more by showcasing the type of people BioWare are bringing into their circle these days.

Oh, and btw, if you'd bother to actually read what I'd said regarding your so-called claims, I said I was done with Dragon Age and the Dragon Age IP as a whole, not with BioWare entirely. I said that how ME3 turns out will determine whether I stick with BioWare beyond that or not.

Beyond that, like anybody who sprouts terms like "elitist", "hater" and "troll" at the drop of a hat you're not worth my time, so I won't bother responding to anything else.

Oh... and Reported, btw.

[SalsaDMA]

Walker White wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...


I disagree with the 'jumpy' system you are suggesting.

It is unrealistic in the extreme. Gaming systems that do the gradual slope of small improvements that per level doesn't seem big, but taken over the entirity of the career is large, makes for far better immersion.

So I take it that you are not a fan of (any edition of) Dungeons & Dragons.  Particularly the early ones where you could never level higher than 12th without cheating.

I started with the boxed red set of D&D back in the days (and got the blue, green and black sets too). Halfings were hardcapped at level 8, but even back then they realized it was an issue, as witnessed by the attack rank system they incorporated for demi-humans to compensate for the low level hardcaps.

Even though there were alot of stupid and silly rules in D&D (And subsequently AD&D), it still tried to follow somewhat to a formula of a somewhat slow progression. For example, Fighteres were the only class that got +1 on their attack roll every time they gained a level. Every other class had to get multiple levels (depending on class) to get better at attacking.

Even so, I ended up playing AD&D 2nd edition in a heavy modified version (of my own modding) with my friends, because we felt the 'standard rules' were too silly at some cases. Eventually, though, we finaly ended up playing a science-fiction rpg I had made myself which was far better in this regard with rules, and alot more immersive.

At its heart, rpg rules are meant as a way for the players to simulate the world their characters are 'living' in. The more you can make the rules give results that feels as something that would make sense in a real world, the more sense the rules makes. This is irregardless of wether you are working with rules for combat, handling stats and abilities for player and non-player characters, making tables for encounters, creating background info for localizations or whatever.

[darknoon5]

@Terrok K: You proved his point that you're a hypocrite. You rage and insult him back, but then report him? Something doesn't seem right there. I also doubt he would've blown off the handle if you were less condescending and insulted other genre's less. (I still can't believe that whole "RPG's take more skill then shooter" line:pinched:)

Modifié par darknoon5, 07 mai 2011 - 01:36 .

[Walker White]

Murmillos wrote...

Loot/Inventory is another method of tracking growth.

Historically, loot came about as an exploit to get around the soft level caps in the original (pre-Advanced) Dungeons & Dragons.  Many characters could never get higher than 8th level and so loot exploded as a way to get around that. You see the same thing in the WoW endgame.  Before that, RPGs were very low loot.  And technically, 3e tried to recapture that feel.  If you actually played according to the wealth limits in the DMG, your character had very, very few items well up to 10th level.

If you put enough powers into the character build, there is no need for loot.  And loot (other than scanning) makes no sense in a sci fi setting with fabrication plants and 3D printers.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Someone With Mass wrote...

All the stats did was to make my reticule so large I could barely hit anything, while in ME2, I could skip the whole based on pure luck thing and just shoot the guys.

Those stats were so unnecessary besides adding padding, it wasn't even funny.

I'd be less annoyed with the stats if the majority of combat in ME1 didn't consist of enemies and allies running around like headless chickens until someone decided they felt like dying. And if the cover system didn't feel like you were stuck to the wall with sticky-glue, because honestly the cover system in ME1 was utter crap--it functions as if it expects a dedicated cover shooter, but the enemies themselves often say "screw you" to cover and just flank you like headless chickens.

You might think the use of a strategic word like "flank" in the same sentence as "headless chickens" is an oxymoron, but in this case it's not. A lot of the time it seems like my enemy's cunning flanking manuever was a cunning accident.

Also, Wrex, move over a smidgeon. I'm about to die, here. I'd really like room to get out of cover and run for the airlock, please. No? I'll just sit here smushed between you and the wall until the enemy leader shotguns me in the face, then. -.-

[SalsaDMA]

Walker White wrote...

Ostagar2011 wrote...


The stats are important to an RPG because they represent the character. In a typical FPS, you the player, represent the character.

My custom choice of powers and abilities represent my character, not the stats.  Point me to an FPS that has the range of customizable powers that ME does.

While all RPGs have some minor collection of stats (they at least have some way to represent health or a health-proxy), there are many, many pen-and-paper RPGs that de-emphasize them to use powers instead.

At the top of my head: Borderlands

[Someone With Mass]

Terror_K wrote...

Go ahead... just prove my point more and more by showcasing the type of people BioWare are bringing into their circle these days.

Oh, and btw, if you'd bother to actually read what I'd said regarding your so-called claims, I said I was done with Dragon Age and the Dragon Age IP as a whole, not with BioWare entirely. I said that how ME3 turns out will determine whether I stick with BioWare beyond that or not.

Beyond that, like anybody who sprouts terms like "elitist", "hater" and "troll" at the drop of a hat you're not worth my time, so I won't bother responding to anything else.

Oh... and Reported, btw.

Butthurt is not a valid reason to report.

By the way, those buttons aren't even connected to any of the moderators, so you're just wasting your time.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Walker White wrote...

If you put enough powers into the character build, there is no need for loot.  And loot (other than scanning) makes no sense in a sci fi setting with fabrication plants and 3D printers.

What, you mean if I went digging around in random crates and trash cans in the Star Wars universe I wouldn't find random caches of blasters, grenades, etc. all over the place?

...

[Walker White]

SalsaDMA wrote...

For example, Fighteres were the only class that got +1 on their attack roll every time they gained a level. Every other class had to get multiple levels (depending on class) to get better at attacking.

Fighters had minor jumps, but that is why everyone decked those suckers out with items.  Look at any of the subclasses (Ranger, Paladin) or any spellcaster.  The ability jumps are huge because you unlock major new powers each level.  That is also what happens in Dragon Age.  And that is what we are talking about here.

[Someone With Mass]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

I'd be less annoyed with the stats if the majority of combat in ME1 didn't consist of enemies and allies running around like headless chickens until someone decided they felt like dying. And if the cover system didn't feel like you were stuck to the wall with sticky-glue, because honestly the cover system in ME1 was utter crap--it functions as if it expects a dedicated cover shooter, but the enemies themselves often say "screw you" to cover and just flank you like headless chickens.

You might think the use of a strategic word like "flank" in the same sentence as "headless chickens" is an oxymoron, but in this case it's not. A lot of the time it seems like my enemy's cunning flanking manuever was a cunning accident.

Also, Wrex, move over a smidgeon. I'm about to die, here. I'd really like room to get out of cover and run for the airlock, please. No? I'll just sit here smushed between you and the wall until the enemy leader shotguns me in the face, then. -.-

Pretty much. I'm blaming the AI for the most of that, though.

[lazuli]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Walker White wrote...

My custom choice of powers and abilities represent my character, not the stats.  Point me to an FPS that has the range of customizable powers that ME does.

At the top of my head: Borderlands

Each character has one power and a collection of passive abilities to manipulate that single power.  That hardly counts, unless they changed this in some DLC.  I quit playing that game when I realized that PC multiplayer was never going to get fixed.