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ME3: "No meaningless non-combat stats" says Bioware


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#101
Saphara

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Ixalmaris wrote...

Saphara wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Son, if you play RPGs just for the gameplay mechanics, you are doing it wrong.


A big part of the draw for JRPGs (and Japanese games in general) are the game mechanics, since the stories are often unimportant (fighting games) or largely non-interactive (Final Fantasy, Legend of Dragoon, etc.) Game mechanics can make or break a game. Now that I've played ME2, running through ME1 to make decisions for a new Shepard seems like a chore. Without strong gameplay in a combat heavy game like ME1, it can really kill the experience.


which is why i directed him toward JRPGS. WHat the discussion happening here is WRPGS, which tend to be more story and character focused.


Western RPGs. Character driven... :blink:


Final Fantsay 13: I can only play lightning, i cannot change her personality, and i cannot shape the story.

ME2: I can go Mshep or Femshep, Paragon, neutral, or renegade or a combination, i can choose sides in the story that either has a direct affect right away or will have a future effect.

#102
Anacronian Stryx

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I think i must be missing something because where were the skills/stats there were not meaningful in combat in ME2???

#103
Eudaemonium

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Anacronian Stryx wrote...

I think i must be missing something because where were the skills/stats there were not meaningful in combat in ME2???


There weren't any (unless you consider the P/R score), which is another reason this topic is ridiculous and in serious need of a renegade interrupt.

#104
Sentox6

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Ixalmaris wrote...

Saphara wrote...
which is why i directed him toward JRPGS. WHat the discussion happening here is WRPGS, which tend to be more story and character focused.


Western RPGs. Character driven... :blink:

Eh, it seems like a perfectly reasonable statement for someone who's never played a JRPG in their life.

#105
MoonChildTheUnholy

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Sentox6 wrote...
It's a pretty solid opinion. Playing RPGs solely for the gameplay mechanics is like using a motorcycle for cargo transportation.


A solid opinion? lol, dude rpgs have some classic gameplay mechanics don´t even go that way.

Also. :P

http://t0.gstatic.co...bNFaLrI8ukmln1j

Modifié par MoonChildTheUnholy, 05 mai 2011 - 09:16 .


#106
Saphara

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Sentox6 wrote...

Ixalmaris wrote...

Saphara wrote...
which is why i directed him toward JRPGS. WHat the discussion happening here is WRPGS, which tend to be more story and character focused.


Western RPGs. Character driven... :blink:

Eh, it seems like a perfectly reasonable statement for someone who's never played a JRPG in their life.


I HAVE. For the longest time, thats all i played! Never blasted said they werent character driven, but it is markedly different from WRPGS.

#107
Schneidend

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Saphara wrote...

which is why i directed him toward JRPGS. WHat the discussion happening here is WRPGS, which tend to be more story and character focused.


The best WRPGs are the ones that strike a good balance between characterization, story, RPG mechanics, and gameplay execution. Baldur's Gate, KotOR, and Dragon Age all have this in common. Mass Effect, being part shooter, is still a work in progress in this regard. They got the shooting perfect in ME2, now they just need to make our character building more compelling, and they've promised to do so.

#108
Haventh

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This doesn't worry me. As long as i have the option to use intimidaten and persuasion i don't care about useless skills or powers. This is not d&d tabletop.

An RPG means to me that you assume a character, but you make choices and choose a personality / way of acting for your character, you choose. If you can't choose to be a ****** or be a nice guy or be something in between, it's an adventure game. At least, thats my definition of it, you can take it to heart, or not, no one is forcing you.

#109
wolfennights

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

Remember how when you leveled up your powers, swapped your armor around, or got an upgrade, it didn't really feel like it did anything?

That's what they're fixing here, it sounds like. Seems they want leveling up to finally mean something.

No reason to panic... yet.

Hope you're right.

#110
Eudaemonium

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Saphara wrote...

Sentox6 wrote...

Ixalmaris wrote...

Saphara wrote...
which is why i directed him toward JRPGS. WHat the discussion happening here is WRPGS, which tend to be more story and character focused.


Western RPGs. Character driven... :blink:

Eh, it seems like a perfectly reasonable statement for someone who's never played a JRPG in their life.


I HAVE. For the longest time, thats all i played! Never blasted said they werent character driven, but it is markedly different from WRPGS.


It would probably be better to say that WRPGs, on average, tend to involve more player agency - whether that be through choosing the outcome of an event, or simply crafting a personality through dialogue options. Of course, there are JRPGs with multiple endings and a variety of plot outcomes. But this is by-and-large the difference in people's minds. Both forms of RPGs are highly character driven, its simply that in WRPGs the player tends to have more control over the main character's appearance, personality, allegiances, relationships, etc.

#111
Saphara

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Schneidend wrote...

Saphara wrote...

which is why i directed him toward JRPGS. WHat the discussion happening here is WRPGS, which tend to be more story and character focused.


The best WRPGs are the ones that strike a good balance between characterization, story, RPG mechanics, and gameplay execution. Baldur's Gate, KotOR, and Dragon Age all have this in common. Mass Effect, being part shooter, is still a work in progress in this regard. They got the shooting perfect in ME2, now they just need to make our character building more compelling, and they've promised to do so.


Right. Horrible gameplay (personally) is one reason i hated the Witcher. It's just that the guy seemed to want great gameplay and, eh, if it had good story and characters then good for it. Difference in interpretation of statement i guess.

#112
JamieCOTC

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

MoonChildTheUnholy wrote...

Funny as i play games, in this case Mass Effect, for the gameplay. Characters and story are a bonus.

Ah.  You might be better off with Call of Duty, then.  I hear the gameplay's really good.

Oh.  I went there.


Where is that Chuck Norris approves gif when you need it?

Seriously, there's no right or wrong way to play a game, but BW's cornerstone strength is and has always been character and story.  That's why I play them and not, say COD. 

As for the stats issue, I won't miss them in ME3 too much as Skyrim will give me plenty of old school RPG joy.  I hope. 

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 05 mai 2011 - 09:29 .


#113
Schneidend

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

Son, if you play RPGs just for the gameplay mechanics, you are doing it wrong.


I'd have to disagree. I like roleplay and dialogue as much as the next guy, but sometimes I just want to kill monsters with my +2 greatsword of slaughter.

#114
Saphara

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Eudaemonium wrote...

Saphara wrote...

Sentox6 wrote...

Ixalmaris wrote...

Saphara wrote...
which is why i directed him toward JRPGS. WHat the discussion happening here is WRPGS, which tend to be more story and character focused.


Western RPGs. Character driven... :blink:

Eh, it seems like a perfectly reasonable statement for someone who's never played a JRPG in their life.


I HAVE. For the longest time, thats all i played! Never blasted said they werent character driven, but it is markedly different from WRPGS.


It would probably be better to say that WRPGs, on average, tend to involve more player agency - whether that be through choosing the outcome of an event, or simply crafting a personality through dialogue options. Of course, there are JRPGs with multiple endings and a variety of plot outcomes. But this is by-and-large the difference in people's minds. Both forms of RPGs are highly character driven, its simply that in WRPGs the player tends to have more control over the main character's appearance, personality, allegiances, relationships, etc.


I probably should have said more customized character or something. Didnt know that what i said would get me lamblasted as never played a JRPG in my life. Image IPB

#115
Dave666

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JamieCOTC wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

MoonChildTheUnholy wrote...

Funny as i play games, in this case Mass Effect, for the gameplay. Characters and story are a bonus.

Ah.  You might be better off with Call of Duty, then.  I hear the gameplay's really good.

Oh.  I went there.


Where is that Chuck Norris approves gif when you need it?

Seriously, there's no right or wrong way to play a game, but BW's cornerstone strength is and has always been character and story.  That's why I play them and not, say COD. 

As for the stats issue, I won't miss them in ME too much as Skyrim will give me plenty of old school RPG joy.  I hope. 


Its interesting what that statement says isn't it?  I'm not bothered if I can't get the kind of RPG (i.e. the ones that they used to make) that I want, because I can just go to one of Bioware's competitors... lol

#116
Geth_Prime

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There is a lot of fail in this thread...BioWare say there will be no meaningless stats...so people moan.

#117
Sentox6

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MoonChildTheUnholy wrote...
A solid opinion? lol, dude rpgs have some classic gameplay mechanics don´t even go that way.

Also. :P

http://t0.gstatic.co...bNFaLrI8ukmln1j

I never said you couldn't, I just implied it wasn't the best idea. That picture doesn't make me think otherwise.

Still made me lol though. I lean far enough to scrape bits of my bike on the ground at racetracks, and I'd be absolutely terrified to get on that thing :P

Anyway, let me clarify: I'm not saying RPGs don't sometimes have great mechanics, but it is a genre much more likely to be forgiven for poor mechanics if it gets other RPG staples right. So yeah, you can play RPGs for the gameplay mechanics, but I'd say gameplay is more likely to excel in other genres that are more focused on it.

Eudaemonium wrote...

Saphara wrote...
I HAVE.
For the longest time, thats all i played! Never blasted said they werent
character driven, but it is markedly different from WRPGS.


It would probably be better to say that WRPGs, on average, tend to involve more player agency - whether that be through choosing the outcome of an event, or simply crafting a personality through dialogue options. Of course, there are JRPGs with multiple endings and a variety of plot outcomes. But this is by-and-large the difference in people's minds. Both forms of RPGs are highly character driven, its simply that in WRPGs the player tends to have more control over the main character's appearance, personality, allegiances, relationships, etc.

Thank you. Saying WRPGs are more story and character focused than JRPGs, which is what I originally took exception to, is completely erroneous. They just take a different approach.

Modifié par Sentox6, 05 mai 2011 - 09:38 .


#118
Dave666

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Geth_Prime wrote...

There is a lot of fail in this thread...BioWare say there will be no meaningless stats...so people moan.


Not really, the worry for some lies in the interpretation of 'meaningless stats', do Bioware mean the same things that we do when they say that, or do they mean something else entirely?  What they class as a 'meaningless stat' may actually be something that we like.

#119
Saphara

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Sentox6 wrote...

Eudaemonium wrote...

Saphara wrote...
I HAVE.
For the longest time, thats all i played! Never blasted said they werent
character driven, but it is markedly different from WRPGS.


It would probably be better to say that WRPGs, on average, tend to involve more player agency - whether that be through choosing the outcome of an event, or simply crafting a personality through dialogue options. Of course, there are JRPGs with multiple endings and a variety of plot outcomes. But this is by-and-large the difference in people's minds. Both forms of RPGs are highly character driven, its simply that in WRPGs the player tends to have more control over the main character's appearance, personality, allegiances, relationships, etc.

Thank you. Saying WRPGs are more story and character focused than JRPGs, which is what I originally took exception to, is completely erroneous. They just take a different approach.


Fine, and i'll appologise for horrible wording and the apparant "lost in translation" moment, but dont you blasted dare say ive never played something in my life Image IPB 

I completely meant that WRPGS tend to have more customized characters and that i could somewhat mold the story as a rule rather than exceptions.

anyhow, I think I'm done before i blow a gasket.

#120
hawat333

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Chris Priestly wrote...

So directly saying that were enriching the role-playing mechanics and making stats meaningful in combat somehow also means we're making them worse?

I do not understand people sometimes. :blink:



:devil:

Well, then let me elaborate: there are some confusing statements in that article.
"We want to enrich the role-playing aspects of the game, while making sure that they're always meaningful in combat," This, for example, tells us that every RPG aspect will be meaningful in combat. It points to the conclusion that any RP aspect in the game will be somewhat related to combat.
And it's not the point of RP aspects in general.
Their point is to make you able to play a role as you feel fit. More dialogue options for example, multi-path conversations, that's an RPG aspect. And that, for example, has nothing to do with combat.

The question is, what is meant by RPG aspects? Combat-stats and armor customization or exploration, multi-path quest solving and stuff like that.

#121
shep82

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Chris Priestly wrote...

So directly saying that were enriching the role-playing mechanics and making stats meaningful in combat somehow also means we're making them worse?

I do not understand people sometimes. :blink:



:devil:

Welcome to fandom Chris. It is a world where people make no sense.

#122
Varen Spectre

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So, in the light of information stated in new PC Gamer magazine (especially the description of development of Vanguard's powers) about which our friend Vertigo_1 made a  thread, I am worried even a little bit less... 

... as long as the article states the truth and the described features will not be tweaked away.

- I am not RPG purist though, so don't take my word for it. ^_^

#123
Walker White

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The more I read the BioWare forums, the more I am convinced that the hardcore RPGers here come from the gaming groups I explicitly avoided in the 80s and 90s.

I am pretty sure that when they say "meaningless stats" they mean things like the weapon system in ME1. The weapons in ME2 were so much richer. The differences were clear to even the most casual observer -- giving you real trade-offs well into the end game. In ME1 it was these little stat differences that, by the end, were only visible if you set up scientifically controlled DPS experiments.

The same was true with out-of-combat actions. In ME1 you had this decryption ability that served no other role than as a hard bound on what you were allowed to hack. Because of the minigame, its exact value did not matter at all -- which is why they had to combine it with an additional combat ability. In ME2, you could buy upgrades that gave you more time, which is a real, visible effect.

#124
Darth Death

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Arcian wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

This has nothing to do with the story, or the roleplaying, or the dialogue, or Miranda's ass.

EVERYTHING has something to do with Miranda's ass.








Sadly.


Why sadly? Her ass is invigorating.:wub: 

#125
Bluko

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 I dunno the way these things are said are just so vague they invite speculation. Also the articles themselves are probably written to be provocative to incite more people to read into them, hence more views, and well you get the picture.

"We want to enrich the role-playing aspects of the game"
 
Well that's good.

"While making sure that they're always meaningful in combat."

Eh why does everything have to be about combat/killing things? Is it wrong to have a stat that makes it easier to "pick locks" etc. (Not saying ME1's Electronic/Decryption skills are the way to go, cause frankly they were implemented somewhat poorly.) That's a big part of the appeal of RPGs right there. You know that it's not all about the "hack n' slash" or in Mass Effect's case "point and shoot".

*Edit: Honestly though I much prefer ME2's way of handling Charm/Intimidate and means of Hacking Door, Crates, etc. Althought why these features can't have unique and seperate skill trees is perplexing.

True some abilities/skills in both ME1 and ME2 aren't very worthwhile. (I'm thinking of you Cyro Ammo...) So I can understand trying to make sure that all the abilities seem equally viable to use. Although part of the fun is finding ways to make good use of abilities people tend to dismiss as useless, and actually creating a character that is unique in terms of ability. The big appeal for RPGs is being able to things your way, and not being forced into cookie-cutter designs. Even most "Shooters" are starting to realize this, hence why CoD has things like perks, weapons attachments, equipment.

"We don't want to have any meaningless behind-the-scenes stat games, where the output is very minor in combat. Every single thing you do has a real impact in the battle."

I can't really complain about that. Having a "to hit roll" in a game where you actively shoot things is a tad silly. I certainly don't miss ME1's: level up weapon skill get more accurate/do more damage thing. For the most part I'd prefer if all the games more or less had fixed damage rates for the weapons (that also means none of ME2's silly upgrades, since frankly those were just as bad.)

I certainly prefer that when I level up things that they actually change. Getting just 5+ HP and 5% more damage per level is really rather meaningless. The true appealing aspect of leveling is getting more powerful through experience. For some getting 5+ HP is that, although for others it may not be. So I'm much more inclined to things that like when I actually level up oh say Biotic Throw, that it actually changes and gets more powerful. In the Level 1 lets you throw one enemy, Level 2 lets you throw 2 enemies, etc. That's more appealing and worthwhile then just +50 Newtons of Force. I mean honestly those things were hardly noticeable in ME1, until you had achieved several levels, if that. So making leveling more meaningful, more impactful, is a good thing as far I'm concerned.

Modifié par Bluko, 05 mai 2011 - 10:30 .