48 réponses à ce sujet

[Timmy Ziggy]

The Mass Effect Community on the use of Shredder Ammo in Insanity mode: "Ah yes, 'Shredder Ammo', a bonus ammo power that can allegedly have an 80% damage boost against organic enemies. We have dismissed that claim."

How come no ones uses Shredder Ammo on insanity? I mean, sure it doesn't have the same flair that Cryo Ammo does, and it's completely redundant unless you're an Engineer or Sentinel, but last time I checked, increasing something's efficiency by 80% is a huge thing.

There are 18 missions that feature Mechs/Geth. Compare that to the 38 other missions that features Organics.

When Mass Effect 2 first came out, people doubted the usefulness of Charge, Cryo Ammo, being an Adept, and not taking the Assault Rifle on the collector ship. Now, everyone has seen their potential in combat. Even AI Hacking, which was almost untouched for a while, has seen a rise in popularity on these forums. Bloody hell, there are some posts dedicated to Shockwave. Where's all the love for Shredder Ammo?

[mcsupersport]

Well, ....
Warp ammo gives +50% damage to Health, Barriers, Armor, and biotic effected enemies.
Armor Piercing ammo gives 70% to Armor, and Health including synthetics.
Cryo freezes enemies causing them to take double damage(IIRC) and stops them shooting at you.

So you can do 80% more versus health but not synthetics, or 50% more to three states including health and synthetics and any biotic effected enemy, which would you think was better?? Warp is better in my mind because you get to health faster, allowing many more things to happen quicker. Besides once to health, you can concussive blast, throw, pull, singularity, burn, freeze, Neural shock, Reave, slam and Dominate enemies.

Also if you look at the way upgrades are handled and also the way ammo works against protections with bonuses then ammo powers aren't all that great, and your 80% will in actuality be closer to 20-30% bonus at best, search the forums for the exact math and debate.

Say you are using a gun that does 100 pts of damage each shot plus shredder at 80%. An enemy has 150 pts armor and 300 pts health. You shoot once and knock off 100 pts armor leaving 50 armor 300 health. You shoot second round taking out 50 armor and 50 health, because the mook had armor you don't get shredder bonus leaving 250 health. So two shots to get to health, plus one more to do 180 pts to 250 health leaving him with 70 points for a four shot kill. Four shot kill, with two in armor and two in health.
Now say you use same gun and warp for 50% bonus. First shot into armor with bonuses of warp ammo is 150 damage to wipe out armor leaving only health. Second shot does 150 damage to health leaving 150 health, making it a 3 shot kill.  Not only do you get to health faster you also in this instance kill the guy faster. Now you can play with the numbers but to my mind you will get more out of Warp, unless you just like green guns more than purple.

Now if the guy had 5pts armor and 100 health, a shot with shredder wouldn't kill him with our test gun it would leave him with 5 health. The same guy shot with Warp ammo would be dead because the ammo would do 150pts damage because the bonus would be used since it hit armor which Warp ammo gets a bonus.

But hey, it is a single player game, and you don't have to have the "Most Optimum Build in the Entire Game" to win or even have fun. If you want to use shredder do so, but if you are talking all around effectiveness and best ammo powers to use, then Warp or AP for bonuses will be topping the list and many feel Warp is the best bonus ammo power to use, if you are going to take an ammo power.

Modifié par mcsupersport, 06 mai 2011 - 03:04 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Timmy Ziggy wrote...

The Mass Effect Community on the use of Shredder Ammo in Insanity mode: "Ah yes, 'Shredder Ammo', a bonus ammo power that can allegedly have an 80% damage boost against organic enemies. We have dismissed that claim."

How come no ones uses Shredder Ammo on insanity? I mean, sure it doesn't have the same flair that Cryo Ammo does, and it's completely redundant unless you're an Engineer or Sentinel, but last time I checked, increasing something's efficiency by 80% is a huge thing.

There are 18 missions that feature Mechs/Geth. Compare that to the 38 other missions that features Organics.

When Mass Effect 2 first came out, people doubted the usefulness of Charge, Cryo Ammo, being an Adept, and not taking the Assault Rifle on the collector ship. Now, everyone has seen their potential in combat. Even AI Hacking, which was almost untouched for a while, has seen a rise in popularity on these forums. Bloody hell, there are some posts dedicated to Shockwave. Where's all the love for Shredder Ammo?

I find shredder useless because it's a joke compared to AP ammo.

A) AP provide bonus against armor alongside health (even through it's "only" 70% compared to 80%).
AP's bonuses works on all enemies. Shredder only works on organics.
C) AP increases the amount of blood splatter when an enemy is hit!

Modifié par Lizardviking, 06 mai 2011 - 10:06 .

[TevinterMagister]

I use it cause it's cheap, and doesn't interfere with my build. I never train shredder beyond rank 2, and then only after I've spent the rest on class skill at 30. I use guns like phalanx, locust and shotgun/sniper, so I'll naturally get the most out of it.

Phalanx base damage is 109.8, rank 2 shredder and that number is 164,7. End result is that I might take down 1 guy with 2 shots instead of 3. Locust, sometimes the small clip force a reload and the bad guy ducked behind cover with a sliver of health left, with shredder you can minimize such situations.

And that's pretty much it, nothing great about it but sometimes useful without diluting core class gameplay due to it's passive nature.

[jamesp81]

Timmy Ziggy wrote...

The Mass Effect Community on the use of Shredder Ammo in Insanity mode: "Ah yes, 'Shredder Ammo', a bonus ammo power that can allegedly have an 80% damage boost against organic enemies. We have dismissed that claim."

How come no ones uses Shredder Ammo on insanity? I mean, sure it doesn't have the same flair that Cryo Ammo does, and it's completely redundant unless you're an Engineer or Sentinel, but last time I checked, increasing something's efficiency by 80% is a huge thing.

There are 18 missions that feature Mechs/Geth. Compare that to the 38 other missions that features Organics.

When Mass Effect 2 first came out, people doubted the usefulness of Charge, Cryo Ammo, being an Adept, and not taking the Assault Rifle on the collector ship. Now, everyone has seen their potential in combat. Even AI Hacking, which was almost untouched for a while, has seen a rise in popularity on these forums. Bloody hell, there are some posts dedicated to Shockwave. Where's all the love for Shredder Ammo?

It only works against health, so there's a lot defenses that will stop it.

With that said, however, I don't consider it useless at all.  In fact, I find it's pretty damned effective against Collectors.  Most collector infantry lacks armor; their only defense layer is their barrier.  Thane is well equipped to strip barriers using Warp, and then he can kill the hell out of them with his shredder ammo power.  It's a good ammo power against Collectors if you're a Sentinel or Adept as well, again, since you can strip their barriers.

With all that said, I think AP Ammo is the best loyalty ammo power.  I use it on my non-soldier classes a lot.  For a soldier, I just roll with Squad Disruptor and Inferno Ammo.  Those two cover everything I need for damage modifiers, plus both have some CC effects (Disruptor overheats enemy weapons and massacres mechs, Inferno causes the "fire dance" animation once defenses are removed).

Modifié par jamesp81, 06 mai 2011 - 07:04 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Lizardviking wrote...

AP increases the amount of blood splatter when an enemy is hit!

So does Shredder. And you get a nasty greenish glow on top! I think Shredder looks better, but AP is more versatile.

[lolwut666]

They should've made Shredder useful against all enemies.

As it is, Armor-Piercing Ammo inflicts only 10% less damage and it works against enemies of every type as well as armor.

No point to Shredder unless you like the look of it.

Modifié par lolwut666, 06 mai 2011 - 07:52 .

[termokanden]

Yep. I won't argue against using it if you like the way it looks or you're playing on a low difficulty. But I think it's hard to get around how much more Tungsten Ammo can help you. There are a LOT of enemies with armor. That missing 10% means nothing compared to how much you gain against armor.

Funny thing is, I'm not that big of a fan of Tungsten either these days. I can fit Heavy Warp Ammo into a sniper build. Also use it one my adept at the moment for fun mostly. But really I think the only class that really needs an ammo power that they don't already have is the infiltrator, and then only if you are interesting in one-shotting with the Widow without Cloak.

[AK404]

The problem I have with Shredder ammo, especially when compared to AP, is that the most dangerous enemies in the game either don't have health or aren't organic. In addition, it has no secondary effect.

[lazuli]

Unless you're going for one-hit-kills, wouldn't it be a better option to choose something with crowd control potential? Or are we at the point in ME2's life where the bad becomes good? I'm looking at you, Shockwave Vanguards. What's next, Fortification?

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Firstly, the particular mechanics of ammo powers mean that in the end, the actual damage boost afforded by them is minor at best. Ammo powers are mostly valued for their cc abilities (defensive) and at times, their passive bonus against enemy defensive layers (offensive).

Secondly, the breaking down enemy defensive layers is THE major tactical / strategic element of ME2's gameplay, from Hardcore and up... Shredder Ammo does absolutely nothing to help in this regard, (unlike AP, Warp, Incendiary or Disruptor Ammo) nor does it impart any defensive cc ability (again, unlike Incendiary, Disruptor or Cryo Ammo).

You might argue that Shredder makes up for this by killing health faster, but it doesn't help at all. Once you strip an enemy down to just health, they're pretty much good as dead anyway, since they're either being staggered and killed by bullets/powers, or being cc'd by powers. True, Shredder Ammo might speed this along, but it's not really possible to justify sinking skill points into something that only slightly helps you with what is really probably the easiest part of this game (i.e.: killing defenseless enemies).

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 07 mai 2011 - 04:01 .

[lazuli]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...
Once you strip an enemy down to just health, they're pretty much good as dead anyway, since they're either being staggered and killed by bullets/powers, or being cc'd by powers.

If Sinosleep were dead, he'd be rolling in his grave.

[AK404]

Thank you, I was looking for that thread.

[Alamar2078]

lazuli wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...
Once you strip an enemy down to just health, they're pretty much good as dead anyway, since they're either being staggered and killed by bullets/powers, or being cc'd by powers.

If Sinosleep were dead, he'd be rolling in his grave.

IMHO he could roll in his grave all he wants.  The second a target loses protections [if it's at range] is the second that its realistic threat level approaches zero.  Even at point blank range virtually no enemies are a problem if you or your entire team isn't on some sort of power cooldown / out of cover / etc.

[Apathy1989]

Shredder ammo is useless since by the time most enemies reach health, they are dead very soon after.

Your main problem on insanity is working through biotics, shields and armour. AP or warp ammo is what you want.

[AK404]

Alamar2078 wrote...

IMHO he could roll in his grave all he wants.  The second a target loses protections [if it's at range] is the second that its realistic threat level approaches zero.  Even at point blank range virtually no enemies are a problem if you or your entire team isn't on some sort of power cooldown / out of cover / etc.

I'd have to disagree.  An enemy with even 5% health left is still an enemy firing a gun at you, and thus a threat.  Worse if they manage to get their defenses back up (something I wish would occur more often).

In game terms, protections are really little more than extra life, and health actually nullifies the damage bonuses from most defense-stripping ammo, but enables the CC bonuses.

That being said, Shredder ammo still sucks.  Granted, I've never  heard a report from someone who's actually bothered to use it...

[clopin]

People use ammo other than Cry, Incendiary, and Warp? Madness.

[lolwut666]

The final damage to health makes a big difference, IMO.

[termokanden]

clopin wrote...

People use ammo other than Cry, Incendiary, and Warp? Madness.

Disruptor is also great.

[mcsupersport]

lolwut666 wrote...

The final damage to health makes a big difference, IMO.

The problem with Shredder is it only does 10% more BASE weapon damage against non-synthetic health than armor piercing and 30% more BASE weapon damage than Warp, while both AP and Warp will inflict more damage on Armor and Synthectics and Warp does extra damage to Barriers and ragdolled enemies. 

Now 30% sounds like a bunch but think of this:

Base weapon 100
Shredder----80
ugrades---60
Armor--20
total---260(30% of total damage is shredder bonus)

Base weapon 100
armor piercing--70
upgrades---60
armor----20
total---250(28% of total damage is ap bonus)

Base weapon 100
Warp ammo---50
upgrades----60
armor----20
total---230(21% of total damage is warp bonus)

Against non-synthetic health..
Shredder total 260
Armor Piercing total   250 or 4% less than shredder
Warp ammo total 230 or around 11-12% difference than schredder

Against Armor and synthetic health
Shredder total--180
Armor piercing--250 or 39% bonus
Warp ammo--230 or 30% bonus

Warp would also then get this against barriers and do double damage against biotic ragdolled enemies. 

So for bonus ammo, shredder just doesn't stack up against AP and Warp except on lower levels and these numbers don't even count in things like class bonuses, skill bonuses, headshots, and criticals.  When you factor all that in, the bonus from ammos are limited, and shredder is the most limited of all simply by vertue of how little you get the bonus against compared to the others.

[lolwut666]

@mcsupersport

I didn't mean to say Shredder is good.

Some people are saying that only ammo powers with CC effects are any good, and I disagree. I think AP Ammo is great, even though it only increases damage, for example.

[mcsupersport]

@lolwut666
Ammo powers are ok, they aren't the end all be all of powers, and people need to realize that they have their place but don't be fooled by the huge bonus numbers they post. Certain classes and combat styles can benefit from them but don't make the mistake of thinking they outstrip all other bonus powers because they show a 70% damage increase. Even in the basic calculations I used above AP only gave a 28% damage bonus above not using ammo power without calculating in all the other bonuses that say a soldier can have, and yet it lists a 70% bonus so in actuality you are getting around half you bonus in this case.

[TevinterMagister]

I just pick one based on the class, shredder for sentinel, AP for engi, and warp for adept. Last engineer had tungsten, but can't honestly say it felt much different to the engineer before that one who had GSB bonus, which I rarely used anyway.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

lazuli wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...
Once you strip an enemy down to just health, they're pretty much good as dead anyway, since they're either being staggered and killed by bullets/powers, or being cc'd by powers.

If Sinosleep were dead, he'd be rolling in his grave.

Meh. Sinosleep has his point, but he'd agree with me, and the community at large that Shredder Ammo doesn't have much use in this game.**

Enemies don't literally fall over after their defenses are broken, but given the natural flow of Hardcore/Insanity, enemies are almost always going to be neutralized (whether from cc or instakill) within moments of losing their protections. Again, to be clear, it's not that Shredder Ammo isn't 'effective' per se, but given the other tools and abilities available to players, it's just not the efficient or effective alternative by any means.


**

sinosleep wrote...

I see it coming most from the "adepts suck in ME 2" crowd when they claim once defenses are gone it's pointless to use biotics on them when that is the furthest thing from the truth. It conserves ammo, provides CC, and if you're using warp bombs provides AOE damage that often times results in you not have to waste a CD or squadmate CD stripping the defenses of the next guy and just chain right into another warp explosion.

randompersonontheweb wrote...

Shedder ammo does more damage to health.
Other than that, I agree.

That's why I said tend to. That and well, shredder ammo kinda sucks.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 08 mai 2011 - 11:14 .

[lazuli]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Meh. Sinosleep has his point, but he'd agree with me, and the community at large that Shredder Ammo doesn't have much use in this game.**

I just brought it up because the misconception of "enemy on health = dead" is so widespread and inaccurate.  I'm not endorsing Shredder Ammo or anything.  I gave it a try on my most recent Sentinel but found it underwhelming.