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[1Minsc1]

@RGC_Ines: ageed, to argue "you are a cheater" after that mail is poorer than the whole plot. Ashs mail is very different.

Modifié par 1Minsc1, 06 mai 2011 - 09:07 .

[nelly21]

I don't mind the subplot per se. It would only add to the immersion to have your current current and former LIs not get along.

What I don't want is something like your former LI dying or not joining your team because you cheated. That's dumb.

[RGC_Ines]

1Minsc1 wrote...

@RGC_Ines: ageed, to argue "you are a cheater" after that mail is poorer than the whole plot. Ashs mail is very different.

You know, I readed right now Ash mail for male Shepard on Wiki ( I never played male Shep so I never saw it), and I agree, that it's look, like Ash still hope for continuation of theirs relationship, and there's more feelings in her mail, than in Kaidan's. So I agree, that here we can consider a " cheating" Also, see how easly it could be done in ME2. Just after reading mail from ME1 LI press " LT" to confirm relationship and press "RT"  to broke up..Easy and simple. Unfortunetly Devs never use it, so we have unclear situation.
Thank You for discussion, was really nice to talk with You.

[1Minsc1]

@ RGC-Ines: I was just ready to "copy paste" :-) The Translation is also different, in german Ash starts with "Hey, Skipper". That's a key-word i think.... strange.
Thanks too, nice to meet You, bye.

Modifié par 1Minsc1, 06 mai 2011 - 09:25 .

[Nimrodell]

1Minsc1 wrote...

@ Evercrow: sorry, i meant: if you had an LI in ME1, and sleep with another person in ME2 that's cheating. The indicator that shows if you are faithfull or not is the pic of you ME1 LI in you cabin.

It's not cheating and anyone claiming otherwise is selling something and even Kaidan's email shows that - he leaves things open in meaning - maybe some day... he doesn't state that he actually waits for Shepard. That interrpretation of cheating is not going to work even in fairy tales.

Shepard was dead for two years, was revived, saved half of the colony on the Horizon (in the meantime his hers Kaidan or Ashley hear rumours but with all their 'love' they actually don't do anything to contact Shepard, in the mean time every joe from the galaxy like dr Chloe Michel are even writing emails to Shepard as soon as they hear he/she is alive and then we get the wrong 'drama queen' scene on the Horizon, with impotent Shepard and LIs that basically turn their backs on him/her). Now tell me, where in those emails was said that they are actually waiting for Shepard, or that they love him/her? Yes, those emails are all about them, survivor's guilt and all that jazz, but Kaidan started seeing some doctor on the Citadel and Ash is tougher, she'll just quote her thing about man and gods... And Shepard may or may not assume that he/she had enough and there's no guarantee that even if he/she survives those two will actually be there waiting, Shepard may still love those two nuggets but still they are not together anymore, and Shepard can fall in love again with someone else that is actually there for him/her, as it happens in life... and the fact is, there are no strings attached at that point, no relationship anymore, just past.

If BW said 'cheating' then it is horribly bad wording and misuse of that term. Cheating on someone means 'being in relationship or at least giving some promises and then stomping those facts with being someone else (lets use merriam-webster definition here - to be sexually unfaithful - usually used with on -was cheating on his wife). At the time when and if Shepard finds new love, he/she is not sexually involved with ME1 LIs, nor gave any promises, nor are married, nor are boyfirend and girlfriend... actually Shepard is pretty much stomped by them into 'rachni muck'.

Now, one can pull out ace from their sleeve by repeating - but Kaidan and Ash were shocked... just imagine how it was for Shepard then, he/she was shocked too... died, been dead, revived and then humped by the entire galaxy and in the meantime was not in relationship with those 'so hurt' birdies. And don't kid yourself, no one normal would consider 'moving on' after two years and insults as cheating... Unless Shepard lives in Hello Kitty Island Adventure land. Ofc, Shepard may feel love after all that, but even then, if he/she decides to have one night stand 'cause he/she are going onto mission that is not filled with hope and rainbows and after all, Shepard at that point is not involved with those two muppets from ME1. They can be hurt alright, but that's mainly their own fault.

It is just ridiculous for me to say it like that - cheating is something that is not nice, not moral thing to do, something that even society frowns upon - and Shepard moving on after all he/she got is not that.

[Nimrodell]

To simplify things:

Horizon: (when it is cheating without an email)

Kaidan: Shepard, you're alive!
Shepard: Yes, been dead for two years, but I got better, Cerberus brought me back.
Kaidan: Cerberus is evil, bla bla bla... but you're alive, nothing else matters.
Shepard: I've been asking Anderson about you but he wouldn't tell me how to reach you or anything else.
Kaidan: Now, you're here, god I missed you so much (kiss).
Shepard: I missed you too (accepts the kiss)... Listen, I'm going after these Collectors... but... if you would...
Kaidan: Don't you dare dying one me again. Promise me you'll come back... to me.

Suicide Mission (hours before):
Shepard: Garrus, wanna try my flexibility?
Garrus: Sure but aren't you with Kaidan.
Shepard: (fingers crossed): Nah. That ship has sailed off.

Horizon: (when it is maybe,just, maybe cheating with an email)

Kaidan: Shepard, you're alive!
Shepard: Yes, been dead for two years, but I got better, Cerberus brought me back.
Kaidan: Cerberus is evil, bla bla bla... but you're alive, nothing else matters.
Shepard: I've been asking Anderson about you but he wouldn't tell me how to reach you or anything else.
Kaidan: Now, you're here, god I missed you so much but you are with Cerberus, bla bla bla... can't believe you're with 'em.
Shepard: Kaidan, I don't work for them... you know I'm doing this only for the right reasons. Kaidan, I missed you so much.
Kaidan: Cerberus bla bla bla... I am still an Alliance soldier... take care, Shepard.

Email from Kaidan:

I'm sorry I went hard on you on the Horizon, I was shocked by seeing you, with Cerberus. But now... now I can only think about you, how much I missed you, how I bled for two years, still living in the past. Please, promise me you won't die on me again, promise... you'll return.. I'll be waiting, here.

Suicide Mission (hours before):
Shepard: Garrus, wanna try my flexibility?
Garrus: Sure but aren't you with Kaidan.
Shepard: (fingers crossed): Nah. That ship has sailed off.

Unfortunately, no scenarios that are like these or similar happened on the Horizon... there were no promises, no renewed statements of love, no hints that Shepard and his/hers LI are together again... Some far hints of maybe we could or get a chance to be together don't imply that Shepard is obligated to behave like there's still something going on. It is either Shepard loves Kaidan or Ash and chooses to stay alone so far, or Shepard moves on, like they already did and that is not cheating 'cause there was no one to cheat at that moment.

[Harmless Crunch]

I just hope there isnt somekind of cat-fight.......

Modifié par Harmless Crunch, 06 mai 2011 - 10:34 .

[1Minsc1]

I wrote: "So i'm taken the part as the "devil's advocate""
Now, that wasn't a good idea... i'm going to loose this trial. You can't cheat on Kaidan, okay.

Ashs mail:
Subject: Hey there. (german: hey Skipper)
Shepard-
I'm sorry for what I said back on Horizon. When I lost you two years ago, it tore me up. I prayed for you every day. I read a lot of Tennyson, thinking about you, just like I did when my dad passed. And then you came back, and it was like my prayers were answered. But I'm not who I was then, and neither are you.
I don't know what's true anymore. Part of me can't believe it's really you. I keep going back to that night before Ilos, our night... I haven't let myself think about those memories in over a year.
I wouldn't have expected you to work for Cerberus, but I know why they sent you to Horizon. I saw how many people were lost there, and if anyone can stop the Collectors, you can. I can't go where you're going, but I can wish you luck.
Just stay alive out there... Skipper. I don't know what the future holds, but I can't lose you a second time.
--Ash

Death closes all: but something ere the end
Some work of noble note, may yet be done,
Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods.

When ended the relationship? The Alliance never found Sheps corpse, he was declared as dead. Ash thought "Shep's dead, it's over", but that wasn't right. On Horizon no one said "It's over" and in the EMail Ash said "I still love you, we will be togehter again." She used the word Skipper ( link to "Oh captain, my captain" means: faith, so she reconsidered that she called him a "traitor"), said she can't lose you a second time (lose what? her boyfriend), qoute the poem she qouted in the night before Ilos (sexual relation) and let herself remember this night again. She use her nickname, so it's an private mail.
Ash got no reply, so she thinks "It's not over, we are still in a relationship". We don't know what the she is thinking (apart from our interpretation of the Email). But BW "knows", so BW says "Ash thinks Shep cheat on her". There should be an option to tell Ash Shep thinks, he is not cheating. But that would not help at all. She thinks the relationship never ended. From her point of view this is explained in the EMail. So Shep cheat on her when he start something new after Horizon.
 

I agree, Horizon and this "cheating-plot" are badly written. But that's arguing on a meta-level. From an "ingame-view" it's different.

Modifié par 1Minsc1, 07 mai 2011 - 09:11 .

[Nimrodell]

Skipper means captain of the ship, not trust, and Ashley calls Shepard like that almost from the first convo on Normandy in ME1. If you don't believe me, check it out http://www.funtrivia...stion36176.html . When she calls Shepard Skipper again in that email, tis just how she used to call him, and she is not prone to such kind of smart puns in ME1.

The fact is - BW did bad job on that whole 'cheating' thing, tis either bad wording, or bad writing or forcing some bad drama plot. As I said, cheating in it's meaning implies something immoral, something that gets rarely justified by society and it is serious deed that implies lying, planning, two-timing people... and if BW stands behind the statement that Shepard's falling in love with another person or one night stand was cheating, then they did bad job on writing that plot so far.

Modifié par Nimrodell, 06 mai 2011 - 10:53 .

[1Minsc1]

Nimrodell wrote...

Skipper means captain of the ship, not trust, and Ashley calls Shepard like that almost from the first convo on Normandy in ME1. If you don't believe me, check it out http://www.funtrivia...stion36176.html . When she calls Shepard Skipper again in that email, tis just how she used to call him, and she is not prone to such kind of smart puns in ME1.

The fact is - BW did bad job on that whole 'cheating' thing, tis either bad wording, or bad writing or forcing some bad drama plot. As I said, cheating in it's meaning implies something immoral, something that gets rarely justified by society and it is serious deed that implies lying, planning, two-timing people... and if BW stands behind the statement that Shepard's falling in love with another person or one night stand was cheating, then they did bad job on writing that plot so far.

I link "Skipper" to "Oh Captain, my Captain", before Ilos she said "You will always be my Skipper".
About BW, i agree. Perhaps they try to works things out, regarding on what Shep said to Kelly (could be dead), TIM (no) and most likely Joker after Horizon. By Shep answers VS can jugde if Shep thinks it is over or not means cheating or not.

Modifié par 1Minsc1, 06 mai 2011 - 11:14 .

[Surmansuuhun]

It's not cheating. You died. That's a pretty resounding end to the relationship. Someone who thinks they're still in a relationship with a dead person is, in fact, a crazy person.

[PrinceLionheart]

Honestly, while I would've preferred for VS to have more closure with the relationship like Liara eventually got, I'm still not a big of using "Well I died so that's it." In the case of VS, yeah it was 2 years for them, so I would understand them moving on. Shepard's last memory was literally the Normandy exploding. So it most, it seems like being apart for them for a few weeks and then deciding to move on to another relationship. Just seems a little too metagaming for me.

[1Minsc1]

Surmansuuhun wrote...

It's not cheating. You died. That's a pretty resounding end to the relationship. Someone who thinks they're still in a relationship with a dead person is, in fact, a crazy person.

Are you kidding, or what?

[1Minsc1]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Honestly, while I would've preferred for VS to have more closure with the relationship like Liara eventually got, I'm still not a big of using "Well I died so that's it." In the case of VS, yeah it was 2 years for them, so I would understand them moving on. Shepard's last memory was literally the Normandy exploding. So it most, it seems like being apart for them for a few weeks and then deciding to move on to another relationship. Just seems a little too metagaming for me.

Good point. But one could argue Shep was very p+++++ after Horizon and the EMail didn't help. And Garrus mentioned this special way to relax before battle.

[RedAxle]

I have to disagree with the whole, "You didn't write back so that means we're still together" thing. Honestly, if I were in a relationship where we got into a fight that made it seem like the relationship was over and I send an email and that person doesn't write back, I would think the relationship is over. Though the VS aren't really to blame. Bioware should have added something in there so we could make it clear that we either wanted a relationship with them or not like we did with everyone else on the ship.

[Surmansuuhun]

1Minsc1 wrote...

Surmansuuhun wrote...

It's not cheating. You died. That's a pretty resounding end to the relationship. Someone who thinks they're still in a relationship with a dead person is, in fact, a crazy person.

Are you kidding, or what?

No, but then again, my Shepard wants to stay with Garrus anyways.
Perhaps I would feel different with a Shepard that actually wants to restart a relationship with the VS.

[TomY90]

from what I will gather you will be punished in a way for romanced in ME1 and ME2 but it will not have a major effect on the game just will cause an alternative sequence involving the characters involved.

[PrinceLionheart]

1Minsc1 wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Honestly, while I would've preferred for VS to have more closure with the relationship like Liara eventually got, I'm still not a big of using "Well I died so that's it." In the case of VS, yeah it was 2 years for them, so I would understand them moving on. Shepard's last memory was literally the Normandy exploding. So it most, it seems like being apart for them for a few weeks and then deciding to move on to another relationship. Just seems a little too metagaming for me.

Good point. But one could argue Shep was very p+++++ after Horizon and the EMail didn't help. And Garrus mentioned this special way to relax before battle.

But wouldn't that make Garrus the rebound guy? This might be me bringing real life into the discussion to much but I can't see the romances being that healthy if you rebounded that quickly. Especially if you got with someone new out of anger.

That aside, I agree with the notion that it isn't cheating since technically Bioware never gave a chance for closure or renewing the relationship. I just personally feel Shep is rushing into a new relationship.

[Nohvarr]

Surmansuuhun wrote...

1Minsc1 wrote...

Surmansuuhun wrote...

It's not cheating. You died. That's a pretty resounding end to the relationship. Someone who thinks they're still in a relationship with a dead person is, in fact, a crazy person.

Are you kidding, or what?

No, but then again, my Shepard wants to stay with Garrus anyways.
Perhaps I would feel different with a Shepard that actually wants to restart a relationship with the VS.

If you're expecting a rational reaction from human beings (like the VS), I'm afraid you'll be sorely dissapointed

[Surmansuuhun]

Nohvarr wrote...

Surmansuuhun wrote...

No, but then again, my Shepard wants to stay with Garrus anyways.
Perhaps I would feel different with a Shepard that actually wants to restart a relationship with the VS.

If you're expecting a rational reaction from human beings (like the VS), I'm afraid you'll be sorely dissapointed

You're probably right. As it stands, I'm actually looking forward to the confrontation in the game. That's why I've got one Kadan then Garrus and one just Garrus to see the difference.

[WizenSlinky0]

Actually you could have been married to your ME1 LI and you'd still be single during ME2.

Till death does us part...

Reminds me, if I ever get married, gotta include the "...barring any form of necro resurrection"

[BattleRaptor]

The fear of cheating is where one is afraid there partner is having sexual relations with someone other then themselves.

This Often leads to an akward bedroom encounter where one party says
"I WILL KILL YOU"
While another party scrambles to get there pants on and at the same time be climbing out a window, yet not actually doing either well.
While a third person screams.
"ITS NOT WHAT YOU THINK!"
and interposes themselves between the 2 other combatants.

At least from my experiance.

IN masseffect the window leads to vaccum, and everyone is carrying guns.

ITS GOING TO BE AWESOME.

Modifié par BattleRaptor, 07 mai 2011 - 03:28 .

[Estelindis]

The way I see it, if Shepard moves on with someone from ME2 then the ME1 LI never really meant as much to Shep as Shep did to the LI. Liara makes huge sacrifices for Shep and has been waiting and hoping that working with Cerberus wasn't a mistake. As for Ashley and Kaidan (who, unlike Liara, had no way of knowing Shepard was being rebuilt by Cerberus), it took them two years to pick themselves back up after losing Shepard. They clearly grieved a great deal. If Shepard is able to discard those relationships and move on in just a few weeks, whether it's because they don't care for the ME1 LIs anymore or they simply find someone from ME2 more attractive, then there's a clear disparity of feeling. One could argue that the ME1 LI broke Shep's heart in refusing to join the Normandy crew for ME2, but if so then it still didn't take much time for Shepard to move on and find someone else. Maybe the consequence of "cheating" will be that Shepard just doesn't notice something re. the ME1 LI in ME3 in time to intervene or make a change - or, perhaps, the ME1 LI doesn't confide something in Shepard which at first seems unimportant but later on becomes a vital clue.  I prefer to imagine that the consequence of "cheating" will be, at least in part, the result of a tragic coincidence rather than any active malice on anyone's part.

Modifié par Estelindis, 07 mai 2011 - 03:57 .

[DrRedrum]

If you have a high enough Paragon/Renegade score in ME3 when the clash between LIs happen, you should be able to blow off Ash/Kaiden. You were dead for 2 years, give Shepard a break.

[RGC_Ines]

TomY90 wrote...

from what I will gather you will be punished in a way for romanced in ME1 and ME2 but it will not have a major effect on the game just will cause an alternative sequence involving the characters involved.

See, here is problem, becouse for more " drama " in ME3 story   players will be punished for something they didn't, and personaly I don't like it.  The problem with this all " cheating things" is, that BioWare made very poorly VS re-union in game, and they still want some drama and emotions in ME3 by using ME1 LIs.
Thanks to Devs, there is lack of oportunity to clear situation after Horizon. If Devs didn't want to do it on Horizon ( becouse of more emotions or something), it could be very easily done after we get e-mail from Kaidan/Ashley. I think, it don't need to much extra writers work, to add two standard mails, one, where Shepard give a VS hope for re-union, and the second one, where there's definetly " broke up" option. And for me, only if I would choose " re-union" mail, and then take another LI in ME2, it would be a " cheating" and this behaviour could be a reason for punish Shepard in ME3.