This one is mainly for the old timers, but the cheating discussion resurrects some memories for me of playing "Bards Tale" and Zork in the 1980's, and the differences in the pre-internet era.
Back before the internet, cheat codes existed, but getting them was not so simple and instant. Thus in those days I played Zork, and Bard Tale without a single hint, cheat or walkthrough.
I remember being stuck in Zork, sleeping on it and finally getting the solution the next day. I remember my graph paper pad from Bards Tale (no auto mapping). I will remember one level of Mangars tower in Bards tale to the end of my days. Pitch dark(not semi-dark like NWN, just a black screen), you mapped by banging into walls in the dark, mix in teleport traps around the map for extra confusion. Also remember no automapping. Basically every time I hit a teleporter, I started a new sheet of graph paper, eventually you spot common area and can merge the maps from two sheets into one. If you persist eventually you can map the level by stumbling blindly between teleporters and banging into walls.
The satisfaction from escaping Mangar maze was immense. As was my satisfaction with completing Zork.
Satisfaction with the outcome, is directly related to difficulties overcome during play(at least for me). Today would anyone actually stick with anything as diabolical as Mangars tower, or would everyone be running for the "lights on cheat" or the bypass cheat.
No doubt some will claim this is an elitist attitude. But, if as a young teen, I could have found solutions for those problems in an instant like you can today, I most likely would have done so, and been robbed of a significant amount of satisfaction in the final outcome.
Because of this I think the gaming experience was better back when the internet didn't give instant access to cheats, that short change the challenges than in the end increase satisfaction. The fulfillment of instant gratification, decreases long term satisfaction.
Gaming experience better before internet gave easy access to cheats?
Débuté par
Guest_Lowlander_*
, mai 06 2011 05:31
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#2
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 08:45
NWN DM
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Agreed... I remember the satisfaction of finally finding the trick to the corridor leading to Werdna's lair in Wizardry. Man I stumbled around so much and for so long getting XP that when I finally got there my party was so powerful and everyone had a Blade Cuisinart so the final battle was almost nothing.
Nowadays that would never have happened because there'd be a forum that I could read that on.
Nowadays that would never have happened because there'd be a forum that I could read that on.
#3
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 09:04
Lightfoot8
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NWN DM wrote...
Agreed... I remember the satisfaction of finally finding the trick to the corridor leading to Werdna's lair in Wizardry.
I was so intent on not missing anything on that 10th level of Wizardy, That I mapped every single square of the 10th level. Of cource it took a ton of Malor* spells. Every single square that you could not normally get to was either solid rock( a few square not many) Or a teleporter to somewhere else.
Yes the good days when you had to work hard at solving the game are over. It is sad but you can see the same attitude outside of the game also. Why figure out how something works if you can just fire off a question on some board and get the answers you are looking for.
* "Malor was a teleport spell.
#4
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 09:22
TSMDude
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I am old. Really old. Add on the fact I am dying of cancer and totally an arse I can climb up on my soapbox and procalim this or that and if you dont want to listen...well damn you too.
On top of that I am well read...a Liberal...and edumacated by good salt of the earth folks and almighty tenured professors of this or that...
I find it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to cheat games but I also find when someone else does it I care very little. I do not want to ruin my ending so to speak.
Like a movie or a book or even a damn comic book I want to finish it because I can. I have used cheats though I will admit...on games like Madden and Sports Games because they were sports games.
I still know the up-up-down-down-left-right-left-right-a-b code to 99 men...and if you know that then you cheated too once or twice.
Fun mindless distracting games I understand a bit of a cheat. After all they are there for mindless distraction.
Baldurs Gate or Icewind Dale I do not. I wanted to beat the game because it was kinda close to DnD but if it really really worries me then I play PnP where the most powerful cheater stopper in the world exist...the DMs eraser.
On top of that I am well read...a Liberal...and edumacated by good salt of the earth folks and almighty tenured professors of this or that...
I find it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to cheat games but I also find when someone else does it I care very little. I do not want to ruin my ending so to speak.
Like a movie or a book or even a damn comic book I want to finish it because I can. I have used cheats though I will admit...on games like Madden and Sports Games because they were sports games.
I still know the up-up-down-down-left-right-left-right-a-b code to 99 men...and if you know that then you cheated too once or twice.
Fun mindless distracting games I understand a bit of a cheat. After all they are there for mindless distraction.
Baldurs Gate or Icewind Dale I do not. I wanted to beat the game because it was kinda close to DnD but if it really really worries me then I play PnP where the most powerful cheater stopper in the world exist...the DMs eraser.
#5
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:01
HipMaestro
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Well... many, many, many moons ago we had a small LAN group playing Age of Empires or one of those Microsoft RTS games (we played lots of different games in those days). One of the guys found some cheat codes that allowed us to spawn in some ridiculous elements like a race car with laser beam and catapults that could shoot at targets off the screen, stuft that was quite inappropriate for a serious game. It was a real hoot, though, screwing around with that stuff for a while until it lost it's novelty value ( "a while" was probably a few hours worth of silliness and several beers). Shortly, thereafter we resumed our status quo games as usual. Without those codes we wouldn't have had the short-lived giggles. Better? Never really thought about any comparison. Our gatherings were strictly for fun, not psychoanalysis.
So the codes are really only a problem being used without community consent (That's what DMs are, right? community-consented cheaters?) . In the wrong hands even a car can be a lethal weapon. The term "road rage" comes to mind. Same phenomenon here. Knowledge of methods to circumvent the "intended" operation of video game code can be a benefit or bane depending on who is driving the bus.
I always assumed the so-called "cheat codes" were furnished so that adolescents desiring to experience a vicarious thrill by artificially dominating a session had a way to implement it.
But there may have beeen a more diabolical intention there. Dunno.
So the codes are really only a problem being used without community consent (That's what DMs are, right? community-consented cheaters?) . In the wrong hands even a car can be a lethal weapon. The term "road rage" comes to mind. Same phenomenon here. Knowledge of methods to circumvent the "intended" operation of video game code can be a benefit or bane depending on who is driving the bus.
I always assumed the so-called "cheat codes" were furnished so that adolescents desiring to experience a vicarious thrill by artificially dominating a session had a way to implement it.
But there may have beeen a more diabolical intention there. Dunno.
Modifié par HipMaestro, 06 mai 2011 - 11:07 .
#6
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:07
Mad.Hatter
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Best contextually-hillarious typographical error. Ever.HipMaestro wrote...
I always assumed the so-called "chest codes" were furnished so that adolescents desiring to experience a vicarious thrill...
#7
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:35
olivier leroux
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I agree that using walkthroughs etc. can impair the gaming experience because you don't get the same sense of accomplishment. I also admit that I'm often tempted to resort to walkthroughs nowadays when I'm stuck in a game instead of pondering over the problem for days as I would have when I was a teenager (for lack of alternatives and because I had a lot more time on my hands and a lot less games to play).
But whether you use walkthroughs/cheats or not is completely up to you. The internet only give us more options - if you can't resist its temptation, you can't blame that on the times but only on yourself. Theoretically anyone can still experience the games today with a sheet of graph paper etc. and without any help or cheats and get the same satisfaction out of it as 20 years ago. Unless you get your satisfaction out of competing with other players and bragging about your accomplishments ...
But whether you use walkthroughs/cheats or not is completely up to you. The internet only give us more options - if you can't resist its temptation, you can't blame that on the times but only on yourself. Theoretically anyone can still experience the games today with a sheet of graph paper etc. and without any help or cheats and get the same satisfaction out of it as 20 years ago. Unless you get your satisfaction out of competing with other players and bragging about your accomplishments ...
#8
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 12:16
NWN DM
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Mad.Hatter wrote...
Best contextually-hillarious typographical error. Ever.HipMaestro wrote...
I always assumed the so-called "chest codes" were furnished so that adolescents desiring to experience a vicarious thrill...
44DDD please.
#9
Posté 11 mai 2011 - 12:50
Gecon
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Before the internet, you could buy solution books to your games.
And I only saw Wizardry 8 as an example for an old timer game. But if that is how they have been, then no thank you very much, I keep playing my modern games instead.
And I only saw Wizardry 8 as an example for an old timer game. But if that is how they have been, then no thank you very much, I keep playing my modern games instead.
#11
Posté 11 mai 2011 - 04:59
Shadooow
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In times I remember there were magazines about games where was either offline cheat code database included on CD or those cheat codes were listed at ending pages. So in fact it wasn't so different but I didnt experienced total beginning of games though.
Or ýou just asked friends who played it too if they solved it and how. There are definitely situations where a little spoiler or cheat is needed in order to finish game, though it may decrease gaming experiences its better than replay or stop playing cos the riddle is too tough etc.
Or ýou just asked friends who played it too if they solved it and how. There are definitely situations where a little spoiler or cheat is needed in order to finish game, though it may decrease gaming experiences its better than replay or stop playing cos the riddle is too tough etc.
#12
Guest_Lowlander_*
Posté 11 mai 2011 - 05:28
Guest_Lowlander_*
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There were options for cheats/solutions in the early days and I indicate so in my first post. But in those days it would usually take you longer to get a solution from other sources than it would to work it out for yourself.
There were no solutions on the disk for Zork, You could order a solution manual, but buy the time it came in, you would likely have solved the problem(or the whole adventure). Game mags often had cheats/solutions, but it would only be for the most popular 2 or 3 games that month. End result was likely no easy access to solutions, at least no quick access.
Most puzzles aren't really that hard, it is just these days we have become accustomed to: I can't solve it in 5 minutes, so I use Google...
If you had to order a solution manual, you might give it an hour, instead of 5 minutes. You probably solve it.
It is my simple argument that it is much more satisfying to solve the challenges yourself, rather than google the solution. It hardly seems a controversial idea.
In early days Google simply was not an option. I remember finishing several games in pre internet days and it was more satisfying. That is why I aimed this at old timers...
This isn't a diatrible against people who look for solutions when stuck. I do that too. In theory you can resist using Google, but in reality that is unlikely. Would I resist for a whole day like I was forced to when playing Zork? No...
If I was playing Zork for the first time in the post internet Era, chances are I would have not solved all the puzzles, but used Google when stuck for more than 5 or 10 minutes, and it wouldn't have been nearly as satisfying.
There were no solutions on the disk for Zork, You could order a solution manual, but buy the time it came in, you would likely have solved the problem(or the whole adventure). Game mags often had cheats/solutions, but it would only be for the most popular 2 or 3 games that month. End result was likely no easy access to solutions, at least no quick access.
Most puzzles aren't really that hard, it is just these days we have become accustomed to: I can't solve it in 5 minutes, so I use Google...
If you had to order a solution manual, you might give it an hour, instead of 5 minutes. You probably solve it.
It is my simple argument that it is much more satisfying to solve the challenges yourself, rather than google the solution. It hardly seems a controversial idea.
In early days Google simply was not an option. I remember finishing several games in pre internet days and it was more satisfying. That is why I aimed this at old timers...
This isn't a diatrible against people who look for solutions when stuck. I do that too. In theory you can resist using Google, but in reality that is unlikely. Would I resist for a whole day like I was forced to when playing Zork? No...
If I was playing Zork for the first time in the post internet Era, chances are I would have not solved all the puzzles, but used Google when stuck for more than 5 or 10 minutes, and it wouldn't have been nearly as satisfying.
#13
Posté 11 mai 2011 - 06:20
olivier leroux
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Lowlander wrote...
Would I resist for a whole day like I was forced to when playing Zork? No...
And why not?
Freedom of choice is a hard pill to swallow, isn't it?
Frankly, I don't see the point of regretting that we have more and easier options today. You could just as well complain that back in the days people made more significant and satisfying experiences because life was harder on them and they had to fight for everything we take for granted today. Oh those golden times!
Besides, there's two sides to the coin. The satisfaction in solving puzzles was often proportional to the frustration that preceded it. The more desperately stuck you were, the longer you had to wait, the more time you had to waste on overcoming the obstacles in your way, the greater the joy when you finally could get on with the game. That's fine if you enjoy that kind of thing, but do you really? Why can't you resist the walkthroughs then?
It also depends on your idea of satisfaction and fun. Some people just play games to relax and distract themselves and they probably get more satisfaction out of them and out of their life if they don't have to spend days on also dealing with artficial problems and frustrations. There is no better or worse in this context, to each his own.
#14
Posté 11 mai 2011 - 10:51
MrZork
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As with most things, there isn't likely to be a completely unambiguous "A is better than B" consensus on this topic. I have no problem with the fact that the various console options and walkthroughs are available so easily nowadays. And, I certainly have nothing to say about the ethics of other people using them. But, I will say that my gaming experience is generally better when the game is more challenging and the "cheats" often (not always) make the game easier. I guess what that boils down to is that there is more fun for me when I exercise a little discipline and resist the urge to use easily available shortcuts.
In support of the resist-the-urge-to-cheat side, I'll note that a good chunk of my time spent on NWN recently has been tweaking a couple mods (currently the Sands of Fate series) so that when my playing partner and I go through them, they are still challenging. Of course, most of this is because I have played some of the modules before and she hasn't, but even modules that are new to both of us often have little things where something that should have been challenging wasn't. E.g., there are "dragon stuck in the door" problems or issues playing on Hardcore or Very Difficult where a boss really should have had a couple more minions spawn to take on a multiplayer party than he does when there is just a single player and some companions. Often the most fun we have is when we can't beat an opponent right off the bat and have to reload a few times and come up with a better strategy. And, often the least fun we have is when we feel so overpowering that we can barge into any place on the map and crush whatever is there without any reconnaissance or buffing. I don't think there has been a case yet where there's been a reason to make things easier.
That said, I certainly use various console cheats from time to time or I will look at a walkthrough to see if there is some quest that I missed or maybe a reason to go back later and replay the module with another character because a different class or race would have had some different fun. I actually got involved in another gaming community initially because I was playing Freedom Force and I got stuck trying to beat Shadow (without spoilers - because newbs can still play the game - I'll just say there is a trick to it). As a slightly more experienced gamer now, I know about that type of trick and I would try it fairly soon, but I didn't know it then and I was getting frustrated with the game after several hours. I was glad there was a FAQ available with some of the common hints available.
And, as much fun as extra challenge can be, there are many instances where the fact that things are easier leads to more fun overall. I probably never would have played a few games if they weren't available for downloadable sale. I know that isn't a cheat, per se, but it illustrates the point that making one thing easier sometimes means you can have more fun by putting that time/effort into something else. I played through the OC the first time without any "help" that I can recall. But, I have had fun playing through it later and that fun has been enhanced by the fact that I can say, "Okay, instead of spending the next half hour checking every chest, crate, and rain barrel on this map, I am going to use the console to give myself 300 gold and 3 potions and be done with it."
In addition, I am a somewhat technical person and my early exploration of the console commands made me curious how the game works and that's what lead me to open up the toolset the first time. Since then, I have had fun designing new items, scripting new spells, creating bows with interesting unique properties, and even writing a python utility that lets me import modified resources into a saved game (a time-saver for testing modules where restarting at the new area or whatever isn't a good option because of all the variables that have been set). I don't know that I would have gotten interested in doing any of that without the curiosity spawned by digging around a little under the hood with the console...
In support of the resist-the-urge-to-cheat side, I'll note that a good chunk of my time spent on NWN recently has been tweaking a couple mods (currently the Sands of Fate series) so that when my playing partner and I go through them, they are still challenging. Of course, most of this is because I have played some of the modules before and she hasn't, but even modules that are new to both of us often have little things where something that should have been challenging wasn't. E.g., there are "dragon stuck in the door" problems or issues playing on Hardcore or Very Difficult where a boss really should have had a couple more minions spawn to take on a multiplayer party than he does when there is just a single player and some companions. Often the most fun we have is when we can't beat an opponent right off the bat and have to reload a few times and come up with a better strategy. And, often the least fun we have is when we feel so overpowering that we can barge into any place on the map and crush whatever is there without any reconnaissance or buffing. I don't think there has been a case yet where there's been a reason to make things easier.
That said, I certainly use various console cheats from time to time or I will look at a walkthrough to see if there is some quest that I missed or maybe a reason to go back later and replay the module with another character because a different class or race would have had some different fun. I actually got involved in another gaming community initially because I was playing Freedom Force and I got stuck trying to beat Shadow (without spoilers - because newbs can still play the game - I'll just say there is a trick to it). As a slightly more experienced gamer now, I know about that type of trick and I would try it fairly soon, but I didn't know it then and I was getting frustrated with the game after several hours. I was glad there was a FAQ available with some of the common hints available.
And, as much fun as extra challenge can be, there are many instances where the fact that things are easier leads to more fun overall. I probably never would have played a few games if they weren't available for downloadable sale. I know that isn't a cheat, per se, but it illustrates the point that making one thing easier sometimes means you can have more fun by putting that time/effort into something else. I played through the OC the first time without any "help" that I can recall. But, I have had fun playing through it later and that fun has been enhanced by the fact that I can say, "Okay, instead of spending the next half hour checking every chest, crate, and rain barrel on this map, I am going to use the console to give myself 300 gold and 3 potions and be done with it."
In addition, I am a somewhat technical person and my early exploration of the console commands made me curious how the game works and that's what lead me to open up the toolset the first time. Since then, I have had fun designing new items, scripting new spells, creating bows with interesting unique properties, and even writing a python utility that lets me import modified resources into a saved game (a time-saver for testing modules where restarting at the new area or whatever isn't a good option because of all the variables that have been set). I don't know that I would have gotten interested in doing any of that without the curiosity spawned by digging around a little under the hood with the console...
#15
Guest_Lowlander_*
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 03:47
Guest_Lowlander_*
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MrZork wrote...
As with most things, there isn't likely to be a completely unambiguous "A is better than B" consensus on this topic. I have no problem with the fact that the various console options and walkthroughs are available so easily nowadays. And, I certainly have nothing to say about the ethics of other people using them. But, I will say that my gaming experience is generally better when the game is more challenging and the "cheats" often (not always) make the game easier. I guess what that boils down to is that there is more fun for me when I exercise a little discipline and resist the urge to use easily available shortcuts.
MrZork eh? Did you play Zork??? Zork was one the big reasons I got a C-64 computer and ditched my console.
I certainly don't expect consensus. Recent discussions here just triggered off many memories for me of the early days of gaming where I had no walk throughs or cheats.
Having them so easily available does alter the experience. We (all aspects of modern society) have become so conditioned to having everything instantly, that I doubt any but a tiny minority (which I am not part of) can get stuck very long these days, without Googling for a solution.
I also remember other games, that I wouldn't have minded a cheat after I gave it my best shot, but I never found any in those days. Games like Shadow of the Beast that I sunk a great many hours into, but could never get near the end. I never heard of cheat for this game. I only saw the end more than a decade after my Amiga was boxed, in a youtube Vid.
Modifié par Lowlander, 12 mai 2011 - 03:54 .
#16
Posté 12 mai 2011 - 08:59
HipMaestro
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Fer sure.ShaDoOoW wrote...
Or ýou just asked friends who played it too if they solved it and how. There are definitely situations where a little spoiler or cheat is needed in order to finish game, though it may decrease gaming experiences its better than replay or stop playing cos the riddle is too tough etc.
I dislike games with oppressive pixel searches. They are neither interesting nor challenging beyond the patience it takes to watch the pointless hours flying by with nothing to show for it. If an interesting, immersive adventure story accompanies the relentless hovering and clicking on map areas, I will always opt for any way to circumvent the tedium and cut to the chase. In situations like that, I would change the term "Cheat codes" to "Divine Grace codes". Somebody up there must have seen the premature aging that was occurring to at least one player and cast a well-appreciated blessing.
Puzzles are another matter. There is usually some innate satisfaction in solving someone else's contrivance and worth the persistence. Let's just hope the painstaking effort was due to intricacy rather than a bugged puzzle that really can't be solved with what was provided.
#17
Posté 13 mai 2011 - 02:06
WebShaman
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HipMaestro wrote...
Fer sure.ShaDoOoW wrote...
Or ýou just asked friends who played it too if they solved it and how. There are definitely situations where a little spoiler or cheat is needed in order to finish game, though it may decrease gaming experiences its better than replay or stop playing cos the riddle is too tough etc.
I dislike games with oppressive pixel searches. They are neither interesting nor challenging beyond the patience it takes to watch the pointless hours flying by with nothing to show for it. If an interesting, immersive adventure story accompanies the relentless hovering and clicking on map areas, I will always opt for any way to circumvent the tedium and cut to the chase. In situations like that, I would change the term "Cheat codes" to "Divine Grace codes". Somebody up there must have seen the premature aging that was occurring to at least one player and cast a well-appreciated blessing.
Puzzles are another matter. There is usually some innate satisfaction in solving someone else's contrivance and worth the persistence. Let's just hope the painstaking effort was due to intricacy rather than a bugged puzzle that really can't be solved with what was provided.
This! Well said!
It is about play here. Not work.
If I am having to work, then it is not play.
These days I find that I simply do not have the TIME to invest in games as I did as a kid. Also, games back then were not so intense and big as they tend to be now, and certainly not as time intensive! Let me see, how long have I been playing NWN now? 7 years? More?
Can't say I can recall a video game from yore that captured my interest for that long. Nope.
Also, I was a pretty active kid, so I pretty much split my video playing with outdoor activites. The golden boxes were nice, but nothing beats fishing! Or catching that winning football! Hitting that one ball that wins the game. The crack of a baseball against a bat. The feel and the sound, nothing like it.
I did, however, put lots of quarters into Vid games like Donkey Kong! Still love that game.
