132 réponses à ce sujet

[Kusy]

Sissy.

[aimlessgun]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Call me a sissy if you want, but here's the thing:

For those of you that don't, was putting a bullet though X's head or letting Y die on the Suicide Mission... actually enjoyable?  Why?  Is it fairly easy to keep in mind that it's all just a game and you are simply playing the part of a character?  Or is it more about the satisfaction that comes with breaking all your personal/societal rules in a way that doesn't affect anything outside of a videogame?  Or maybe different reasons entirely?

Firstly: Sissy McSissyPants

Secondly: I'd like to think it's possible because I'm roleplaying well enough to truly comprehend the stakes. I don't think most people really get it into their heads what "destruction of the galaxy" means. Once I understood that, it takes all the limits off my conduct as long as I get the job done.

At the same time you have to very adamantly block out the metagame knowledge that the seemingly inferior paragon options will also get the job done. (and no not all paragon options are seemingly inferior. I choose seemingly superior paragon actions when they appear).

This goes with much of my post a couple days ago about the True Renegade. Actually playing as a 'pure' renegade in the game is just quease inducing.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 10 mai 2011 - 07:37 .

[Pani Mauser]

[quote]GodWood wrote...
Examples of what? Fun renegade options or of cruel ones?[/quote]Examples of renegade options that are "pointlessly cruel" and that make you sick.

Remember you said most do so I'm expecting a big list.[/quote]

Not sure that I can pull the whole list in non-spoliler forum. Those things are spoilers after all. But I'll try. Hope you can guess!

- Burning anyone alive or pouring acid on living conscious beings. Even if in one case the character dies no matter what, I still think it is horrible fate to be burnt alive. If given the option, I'd rather taken bullet myself

- Renegade option with Shiala

- Renegade option at the end of Overlord

- Killing innosents just because they are under some kind of control when there is an option to help them/avoid them

- Injuring civilians just because they are in your way/annoy you

- Getting criminals to kill innosents (bunch of side-missions in both games)

- Renegade option with Jack and Aresh. Jack is unstable enough without encouraging her to be even more violent and I want her to get better

- Selling one adorable being to organization with bad reputation and allowing the same organization to take another character at the beginning of the game

- Encouraging war among any species. Because politicians are never found on frontlines, so you practically send innosents to death

- Shooting anyone/pushing people out of windows etc just because you can, even if their crimes don't deserve death sentence. Intimidation is fun, but killing is not, especially when they are unarmed and willing to negotiate

- Intentionally provoke someone into fights where they will be killed

- Renegade option at Tali's loyalty mission

And I'm sure forgetting about something, but you get the idea.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Call me a sissy if you want, but here's the thing:

You're a sissy. You don't have what it takes to be truly extreme Cheez!!!!!!

For those of you that don't, was putting a bullet though X's head or letting Y die on the Suicide Mission... actually enjoyable?  Why?  Is it fairly easy to keep in mind that it's all just a game and you are simply playing the part of a character?  Or is it more about the satisfaction that comes with breaking all your personal/societal rules in a way that doesn't affect anything outside of a videogame?  Or maybe different reasons entirely?

Yes. Letting certain characters get killed on the suicide mission is always satisfying. Why? Because I hate them from a basic meta-gaming standpoint. I have no emotional attachment to these characters and frankly wished they were not in the story in the first place.
So watching them getting killed in a hilarious anti-climactic way and then have said death brushed aside like it never happend just afterwards? Then sitting there with the knowlegde that the character(s) that just died will now and forever always be absent in this playthrough? THAT is a satisfying experience.

As for chosing to kill certain characters (not squadmates)? I kill most for RP reasons. But sometimes I also do just so I can be deliciously cruel (Urdnot scout for example).

[GodWood]

SPOILERS



[quote]Babe Mause wrote...
[quote]GodWood wrote...
[quote]Babe Mause wrote...
Examples of what? Fun renegade options or of cruel ones?[/quote]Examples of renegade options that are "pointlessly cruel" and that make you sick.

Remember you said most do so I'm expecting a big list.[/quote]Not sure that I can pull the whole list in non-spoliler forum. Those things are spoilers after all. But I'll try. Hope you can guess!

- Burning anyone alive or pouring acid on living conscious beings. Even if in one case the character dies no matter what, I still think it is horrible fate to be burnt alive. If given the option, I'd rather taken bullet myself[/quote]By their very nature the rachni are impossible to integrate into a galactic community and thus are both a potential short and long term threat.

You may not be able to stomach sacrificing one for the greater good but you cannot deny you save more lives in the long run.

[quote]- Renegade option with Shiala[/quote]I don't take it myself but it's a punishment for her actions with Saren.

[quote]- Renegade option at the end of Overlord[/quote]Never played overlord.

[quote]- Killing innosents just because they are under some kind of control when there is an option to help them/avoid them[/quote]Prevents the risk of spreading the infection offworld

[quote]- Injuring civilians just because they are in your way/annoy you[/quote]Not specific enough

[quote]- Getting criminals to kill innosents (bunch of side-missions in both games)[/quote]Cannot remember anything specific...

[quote]- Renegade option with Jack and Aresh. Jack is unstable enough without encouraging her to be even more violent and I want her to get better[/quote]He wanted to restart Pragia, he needed to die.

[quote]- Selling one adorable being to organization with bad reputation and allowing the same organization to take another character at the beginning of the game[/quote]Too vague...

[quote]- Encouraging war among any species. Because politicians are never found on frontlines, so you practically send innosents to death[/quote]Don't do it myself because of the impracticality of starting a war when the Reapers are coming.
But condemning the geth and supporting a future war against them (post Reaper) is completly justifiable 

[quote]- Shooting anyone/pushing people out of windows etc just because you can, even if their crimes don't deserve death sentence. Intimidation is fun, but killing is not, especially when they are unarmed and willing to negotiate[/quote]All the people I can think of were killers and deserved to die.

[quote]- Intentionally provoke someone into fights where they will be killed[/quote]Niftu Cal?
Yeah that's just a "for teh lulz" choice.

[quote]- Renegade option at Tali's loyalty mission.[/quote]Condemning a war criminal and proving Tali's innoccence is pointlessly cruel and makes you sick?

[Clonedzero]

personally i can't stick to pure paragon or pure renegade. i dont think ive ever once fully went one direction.

each choice is different, i dont even think in terms of paragon/renegade.

i feel you with the whole feeling bad over being a jerk in games. happens to me all the time.certain choices i never make in alot of games because well, they're just too douchey. however theres alot of choices in the ME games where the "ruthless" choice makes alot more sense to me in the context of the story so i go with that.

im mostly good though, with indulging ruthlessness towards those that deserve it or when the situation warrents.

[Haventh]

 I have a very hard time playing both pure paragon or pure renegade. I always either play paragade or renegon. 

In real life i am kind, but i can be a ****** towards people i don't want to waste my kind energy on. So in games, i guess it is easier for me to lash out on criminals and bad guys and such.  And i have roleplayed for years, so it is really easy for me to assume evil or ruthless roles in games. 

[DDK]

I totally get where you're coming from. I'm trying to play a pure renegade character and I'm finding I just don't like her; she's such a ****! I just did the Zorya quest for Zaaed's loyalty and chose not to save the people from the fire; Bioware are cruel, heartless monsters because as you're going through the alternate area to get to Vido, you can hear the agonizing screams of the people dying in the fire who YOU chose not to save.

I can't bring myself to play her anymore.

Having said that, I can't play a 100% paragon character either. They're so wussy. I tend to end up with about 60/40 split between paragon and renegade. Which unfortunately also means I only ever truly enjoy the very first play-through because I can't help but make the same decisions every other time I play it.

[CajNatalie]

When it comes to these choices, people need to step in to Shepard's shoes and stop metagaming to understand how often the Renegade option can be the best thing to do.

With the Vido thing... if you let him go he can just go start up all over again and someone'll have to stop him all over again. Zaeed justifies it as best it can be on the ship afterwards.
With the Feros colony, the gas mines are UNTESTED, and the idea of doing a clean sweep is that you take no risks and don't end up dropping the gas then getting paralyzed when you walk through the cloud later.
The Rachni Queen, if you don't Investigate before making your decision, makes perfect sense to kill. She's a big scary monster of a race of creatures that once overrun the galaxy. If you Investigate, then I admit killing her becomes questionable, but she could be lying through her... teeth or whatever.

The Renegade option in Overlord, I tried it once, and it actually isn't as bad as you think.
In that choice, Shepard acknowledges that it's an atrocity, and smacks down Dr. Archer while yelling at him that 'this nightmare better be worth it' and will save lives as Dr. Archer had said.
It's not like you suddenly think 'oh durr-hurr fine use your bro as a tool I got work to do bai'.

One Renegade/Paragon choice I just cannot stand to make the Paragon choice of is Bring Down the Sky.
Let a batarian terrorist go so he can try smashing more asteroids in to planets, just to save what... 3 people?
Or let him blow those people to hell and make sure he doesn't get away (it's even more satisfying leaving him to bleed to death when you've beaten him - Balak damn well deserves it).
Still, when it's over, I always go to the room with the bomb and open the door. My stomach sinks a little... they really did a good job with those smoking corpses to make you feel as sick as possible... but I know that it was the right thing.
I only chose the Paragon option in one of my runs. That's It. And I considered it weakness on that particular Shepard's part as opposed to seeing them as being a hero.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 07 mai 2011 - 11:58 .

[Electricosity]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

No. I don't replay the suicide mission to see "X" or "Y" die. But I suspect it's my only chance to avoid some characters in ME3.

See, I could never do that--no matter how much I hate a character, it seems rather cruel and wasteful just to kill them off so I don't have to see them again.

No that I'm knocking your style; I'd just never do it.  Akin to punching a child because he cries to much, in my mind.  Yeah, I know it's just a game, but it's just...  It makes me feel like an absolute douchebag.

I agree with you. I just had Jacob (whom I didn't like to much), Legion (Whom I feel is like my biggest loss...), and Mordin (Again.. another huge loss). I'd LOVE to replay to have Miranda, Jacob and like.... Samara die. But I won't, and I am praying, PRAYING, we somehow get Legion back.. god I am praying.



As for the topic


Join the club. I personally feel bad for doing certain things in the game. And if I try for pure renegade against my own will, I don't enjoy it. I feel like i'm forcing something that doesn't seem right.
Which I think is great, because this means Bioware actually makes me think about my own moral code, which is hard to do. I do often sit for a few minutes, deciding on choices on what I think, and I can't find myself to be anti-alien like Ash is. I find Garrus is like a brother to you in both games. I find Tali is the best suited relationship (just my opinion).
I am impressed how they made me go from praying, and hoping Liara would be a relationship in Mass Effect 2, to me thinking "Wow. Who the **** are you now?"

[mopotter]

 I can not play as ruthless either.  :happy:  I have no problem killing or insulting someone I think deserves it, like anyone shooting at me, but no matter how many times I play I can never be mean to one of the characters in Thane's mission.  I have started out games with the intention of being renegade, getting things done no matter the cost, but for me, I just don't like the way it makes me feel so I don't bother doing it. 

I never role play, not really.  I have one or two Shepards who do some of the things I don't usually do just so I can see what happens in ME3.  But I don't even pretend that I'm Shepard in these games, and even these are not total renegade, just more balanced, which means I don't always get people to cooperate.  

But I don't really care.  I'm playing to have fun and not to get acheivements so I just play my Shepard the way I am comfortable with.  

[CajNatalie]

ITT: You're all spineless!

Lol, but to be serious, it's good to see people are in touch with their consciences, though, even in something like a video game.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 07 mai 2011 - 01:46 .

[KeldornShepard]

Maybe it sounds dumb, but I have one Shep who ALWAYS takes the worst possible option and goes full renegade. I just want to explore the game in its whole.
Many renegade choices turn out pretty cool and I would have never seen them if I wouldn't have my full renegade, because I would never have chosen like this personally.

Of course I've got some Sheps, where I just "make up the rules as I go along", and it feels best playing them. But without my full renegade I wouldn't know the choices and consequences and what fits one of my "mixed" Shepards best.

[DRSH]

I would like to add that in all my playthroughs only the 1st time I had Mordin die on the Suicide Mission because being the 1st time I didn't how things were going to unfold. I remember being broken up about it. Since then, in all my playthroughs my character is sort'of the same. He's a jerk to the baddies and uses renegade on them, but if he can spare their lives & teach them a lesson he'll do it, because killing doesn't solve squat. On the other hand, he's a pretty good guy when he talks to his team, but if his team sometimes give him snotty answers (say dialogues with Miranda or Jack), he plays along until he turns them around. That's basicaly my perfect Shepard... about 60 percent paragon & 40 percent renegade. Also I never kill anyone on the suicide mission (except for testing different dialogues), because I remember when my Shep let Kaidan to die on Virmire he had a dialogue with Ashley in which Ashley asked him "how did you deal with loses on Elysium" at which Shepard said "I vowed to do better"... and that's my explanation for my Shep's actions. Also I can't really stand killing people for no reason, because when I play Mass Effect I roleplay thinking "what would I do if I had the gutts to do it". Also I care very much for the characters in the game & I believe to be one of the few players who like all the characters equally, and their traits & flaws make them all the more interesting to me. To sum it up a bit: Bioware gave me the opportunity to play the game & do everything right (opposed to Mass Effect 1 in which you had at least 1 death on your hands). My Shepard took Bioware's opportunity and used it to set things right .

[mopotter]

KeldornShepard wrote...

Maybe it sounds dumb, but I have one Shep who ALWAYS takes the worst possible option and goes full renegade. I just want to explore the game in its whole.
Many renegade choices turn out pretty cool and I would have never seen them if I wouldn't have my full renegade, because I would never have chosen like this personally.

Of course I've got some Sheps, where I just "make up the rules as I go along", and it feels best playing them. But without my full renegade I wouldn't know the choices and consequences and what fits one of my "mixed" Shepards best.

This is true.  One of my favorite lines from ME 1 is a renegade choice acid and glass.  Sometimes I'll do the renegade option and then if I hate it, I'll reload.  I know I'm missing some good one liners.  I probably should do this at least once.  

[Nathan Redgrave]

There are two different and perfectly reasonable extremes that good people approach such games with:

1) They take the opportunity to explore the "other side" through games that allow them to do so without real-life consequences, detaching themselves from the game in order to be something they would never be in reality,

2) They impose themselves (sometimes subconsciously) on the game and thus are inclined to act as they would in reality, even if they initially approach a game with the opposite intention in mind.

I'm that second one, myself--even when I was going for the Renegade achievement in ME1, the best I could do was a "Renegon" run in which Shepard was a pretty cool guy who just happened to crack the whip when cracking of whips was necessary (and didn't afraid of anything, by the way).

Neither approach necessarily means you're getting less sucked-in, but one might feel more personally "responsible" for events within a game than another. This is something those Fox News clowns never got--not everyone approaches a game in #2 fashion. Most people who do bad things in videogames are more or less a #1 rather than a genuine bumhole.

[Evercrow]

Usually people who do "evil things", has something to justify it(even if it's imaginary or not exactly coincides with public morale). This is defensive mechanism. And playing videogame not always turn it off,especially if your closer to #2 type(read Nathan Redgrave's post).
That's why Renegade path needs more in terms of long- and short-term benefits(which includes satisfaction from badassery) to keep people from straying off it.Still, you can't provide it for every case - this would be unfair to paragons, and completely removing options to kill random people would be limiting the freedom of players.
   For cases like Shiala you have to justify it by more background or abstract things, like distrust or unnecessary risk(yes, it turns out to best later in paragon games, but imagine it as alternative universe where those people had actually lied)

[CajNatalie]

You know you want to, people...

Besides, no matter what you do, this is what he remembers... ala glitch. So you may as well. :3

[MrGone]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Isn't giving Garrus revenge terrible thing for him?

That's how I felt--feeding his more violent nature would destroy him.  Maybe Sidonis deserved to die for what he did (in your opinion), but is removing one self-serving coward from the world really worth creating a new vengeance-driven monster for it to deal with?

Not that Garrus would have become a monster, but I like to think that friends don't let friends act like self-destructive morons.

Just my two cents.

I dunno, it just seems so hypocritical to me to let that guy live. I mean. I just got done shooting thirty different dudes - with Garrus, to get to a guy who we didn't kill . . . why? Then there's Sidonus who TOTALLY deserves it, he just doesn't know it's coming. What's the big difference there? Stepping in at THAT point seems like just being a big jerk to a friend for no legitimate reason.

Besides if you're going to object to it morally it's better to not help him to that point in the first place.

[Nashiktal]

There is a difference between shooting 30 mooks who give you no choice but to fight, and letting Garrus feed into his rage and kill one unarmed Turian.

One is business/stupidity. The other is self destructive.

[MrGone]

Nashiktal wrote...

There is a difference between shooting 30 mooks who give you no choice but to fight, and letting Garrus feed into his rage and kill one unarmed Turian.

One is business/stupidity. The other is self destructive.

Yeah but no more so that half the stuff you can do.

On my original Shepard - Rachni Queen = Dead. Why? It wasn't out of spite, it was because, hey these things didn't exist before Saren started screwing around with them, having already been wiped out. At that point, they were a BIG X factor that disrupted the current balance, better to not add the unknown element to the mix. So I committed "genocide" by killing on creature.

My Shepard seems all right. He mostly did everything else "correctly" and Paragon, but knows when to apply judicious force. I think Garrus can handle that too.

Then there's the other argument of "As aspectre, I can administer justice as I see fit". Basically like Judge Dredd. I happen to agree that Sidonus should die, and though I'd rather do it so Garrus doesn't feed into his rage my only option is to let the bastard go. That's messed up. Why can't I shoot him, thus taking away Garrus' self-hatred but still giving this guy what he deserves?

Mind you he did cause the deaths of a bunch of people actively trying to strike back against corruption and bring common folks some hope.

In that case, screw it, the guy deserves to die, and Garrus is my only option, I'll pay for his counseling bill later.

[Phategod1]

Mesina2 wrote...

Well it took me like 7 Sheps to have a complete ahole.

Then again that ahole will be screwed in ME3. *points at sig*

I just checked your Sig why did you skip some of the LM's you missed some oppertunities to be a bigger Azz, 

[UJN]

Most of the time I play as some version of myself, which results in a mostly paragon character. Some of the renegade decisions make sense however. I usually kill anyone who could potentially hurt me if I leave them alive, since unnecessary risks seem like a bad idea when you're trying to save the galaxy.

I have one character that I went completely paragon, and it was only possible by pretending that the most paragon option was always chosen automatically. I will try to do something similar in the future, but renegade instead.

My renegade character will probably try to kill a few people during the suicide mission also, since it seems hard to kill more than one person if you're not trying to.

[N0touchi]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Call me a sissy if you want, but here's the thing:

I have no problem writing completely heartless, nasty, kill-you-as-soon-as-look-at-you characters.  When I see them in movies, I even root for them a little.  But for some reason, every time I TRY to do a pure renegade run, I botch it.  My Shepards are never as cruel as I want them to be.  You'd think it'd be easy--just click the dialogue option and be done with it--but I can't.

I think it's because, in Mass Effect, the game forces you to deal with the consequences.  You see a character die, a city burn, and you know you did it.  You know it's your fault.  And you could have done better--you could have acted, but you didn't.

It also doesn't help that every decision-based death seems like an utterly pointless waste of life.  I can't bring myself to killing someone or letting them die just because I don't like/trust them, even if it's in-character, and even though I do this all the damn time in random short stories that I sometimes entertain myself with when I write.

Maybe some of you folks are just better at roleplaying.  Maybe some of you don't get as absorbed in the game as I do.  Maybe you have different values.  But I... just can't do it.  I don't want to.  I can't separate myself enough from what's happening on the screen to not feel guilty and completely unsatisfied.

Does anyone else have this problem?  If you do, is it for similar reasons as the above, or something else?

For those of you that don't, was putting a bullet though X's head or letting Y die on the Suicide Mission... actually enjoyable?  Why?  Is it fairly easy to keep in mind that it's all just a game and you are simply playing the part of a character?  Or is it more about the satisfaction that comes with breaking all your personal/societal rules in a way that doesn't affect anything outside of a videogame?  Or maybe different reasons entirely?

Also, is it possible that there's an element to roleplaying games that makes us realize more about who we are as human beings?  Is there something about how being forced to live with you(r character's) decisions that gives us a glimpse of who we really are?  Or am I taking all of this too seriously and thinking too hard?

This isn't an argument over which way to play is better.  It isn't
about paragons being goody-two-shoes or renegades being evil monsters. 
It's about the mindset of the player, and how that influences how we
play.

As I just now am entering this thread, Im going to start my answers with the OP, and not read the rest of the thread thus far. 

To me, when I try and attempt to play renegade, I make like 1 or 2 ren choices before I end up switching to Paragon. It's not that I like paragon better than renegade. No that's not it at all. What it is for me, is that I feel bad when I try and do renegade options.

Most of the time, I just can't do it. It may be my morality talking, but I just don't have the heart to do it, but I have made characters before(Im a writer) who are absolutely ruthless. But when it comes down to what I want MY character to be, being ruthless is not an option.

My two cents.

[Bolboreta]

That happened to me. My renegade is not 0% paragon. She always chooses some paragon interrupts:

Spoilers:
- Hugging Tali
- Saving the salarian in Thane's mission
- Headbutting Harkin
I can push a merc through a window, but I cannot break a krogan's heart in Ilium by convincing his asari girlfriend to dump him.
I'm a sissy too[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie] 

Modifié par Bolboreta, 10 mai 2011 - 07:15 .