338 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

Bad King wrote...

I always thought he was morally grey in that he is ruthless and has funded a lot of unethical experiments but in doing so hoped to save lives and strengthen humanity's place in the galaxy.

Fixed that for you.

[Thompson family]

TIM never was gray. He's evil with style.

Modifié par Thompson family, 06 mai 2011 - 09:50 .

[Seboist]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Bad King wrote...

I always thought he was morally grey in that he is ruthless and has funded a lot of unethical experiments but in doing so hoped to save lives and strengthen humanity's place in the galaxy.

Fixed that for you.

Cerberus is saving lives you alien stooges would sacrifice for all that kumbaya nonsense!

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Bad King wrote...

I always thought he was morally grey in that he is ruthless and has funded a lot of unethical experiments but in doing so hoped to save lives and strengthen humanity's place in the galaxy.

For a lot of people the journey is as important as the destination. Everyone is either good or they're bad. Plus, a lot of people think pro-human stances are evil as well. To them wanting to strengthen or empower humanity makes TIM evil without even needing all the nasty experiments.

Shepard has a team with a bunch of aliens who put their respective species' interests first but being pro-human is an outragous evil apparently.

[crimzontearz]

even if Cerberus was "gray" their level of incompetence merits them a swift death....or should we just recant all their potentially galaxy wrecking mistakes???

[Thompson family]

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus is saving lives you alien stooges would sacrifice for all that kumbaya nonsense!

Winston Churchill, Josef Stalin, Franklin Roosevelt, Mao Zedong, Ho Chi Minh, Chang Kai-shek and a whole host of other leaders, many of whom were bitter enemies, didn't sit around singing kumbaya while fighitng the Axis powers together.

The Organics will hang together or risk hanging seperately. United, they are stronger. That's not idealism. It hard-boiled fact.

Modifié par Thompson family, 06 mai 2011 - 10:00 .

[Manic Sheep]

Thompson family wrote...

TIM never was gray. He's evil with style.

Regardless of whether you consider Cerberus "grey" or not there is evil with motivations that make sense even if you don’t agree with them or their methods and then there is moustache twirling lets destroy the world kind of evil. TIM should want the reaper stopped as much as you do; they hurt him and his goals too. However at this point we only know they are fighting you. The article in PC gamer which I’m assuming is what sparked this thread (sorry if its not) was not trustworthy.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 06 mai 2011 - 10:05 .

[Seboist]

Thompson family wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus is saving lives you alien stooges would sacrifice for all that kumbaya nonsense!

Winston Churchill, Josef Stalin, Franklin Roosevelt, Mao Zedong, Ho Chi Minh, Chang Kai-shek and a whole host of other leaders, many of whom were bitter enemies, didn't sit around singing kumbaya while fighitng the Axis powers together.

The Organics will hang together or risk hanging seperately. United, they are stronger. That's not idealism. It hard-boiled fact.

TIM in the mission complete summaries talks about needing Quarians,Geth,Krogan and Vorcha in the Reaper war.

So being pro-human =/= anti-alien.

[Thompson family]

Manic Sheep wrote...
Regardless of whether you consider Cerberus "grey" or not there is evil with motivations that make sense even if you don’t agree with them or their methods and then there is moustache twirling lets destroy the world kind of evil. TIM should want the reaper stopped as much as you do; they hurt him and his goals too. However at this point we only know they are fighting you. The article in PC gamer which I’m assuming is what sparked his thread was not trustworthy.

Of all people, Ricardo Montalban explains this the best. He turned in a great performance as Kahn in one of the Star Trek movies. People asked him how he saw that character. Montalban replied that no great villain sees himself as a villain. He sees himself as someone wronged, or someone in the service of a vital cause.

Likewise, TIM is not "moustache twirling" evil but he's no less villainous for that. He's lost all perspective. He's over the deep end, and his methods show it.

As for the magazine, it's true that Cerberus is after you. BioWare has confirmed that. It can be argued that he's not an active ally of the Reapers, perhaps, but the practical result is the same. Even if the Reapers "promised" Cerberus they'd make humans into Reapers and a dominant race, we all know what Reaper promises are worth. And even if that's true, it means TIM will accept the slaughter of trillions of other intelligent beings to serve his goals, and that's simply unaccceptable.

Modifié par Thompson family, 06 mai 2011 - 10:15 .

[Thompson family]

Seboist wrote...


TIM in the mission complete summaries talks about needing Quarians,Geth,Krogan and Vorcha in the Reaper war.

So being pro-human =/= anti-alien.

So TIM sings kubaya too?

If this is a debate, pick a side.

[crimzontearz]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Likewise, TIM is not "moustache twirling" evil but he's no less villainous for that. He's lost all perspective. He's over the deep end, and his methods show it.

Subjective. Who says Kahn isn't the hero? Who says TIM isn't?

Bioware

[crimzontearz]

Saphra Deden wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Bioware

*woosh*

the non american is lost here

care to explain the "woosh"?

[Thompson family]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Likewise, TIM is not "moustache twirling" evil but he's no less villainous for that. He's lost all perspective. He's over the deep end, and his methods show it.

Subjective. Who says Kahn isn't the hero? Who says TIM isn't?

Good grief.

HE IS TRYING TO KILL YOU, SHEP!

[lolwut666]

Sigh...

Those Cerberus supporters both scare and disgust me. The latter more than the former.

[Thompson family]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

HE IS TRYING TO KILL YOU, SHEP!

That makes him an antagonist. It does not necessarily make him villainous.

I hope that distinction is of great solace to you while your Shep and everyone else is in their melting pods.

Modifié par Thompson family, 06 mai 2011 - 10:30 .

[crimzontearz]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

HE IS TRYING TO KILL YOU, SHEP!

That makes him an antagonist. It does not necessarily make him villainous.

crimzontearz wrote...

care to explain the "woosh"?

It's the sound the "point" of my post makes when it sails way over your head.

I'll
be nice and clarify: Bioware decides for us who the antagonist us, but
they can't dictate to us who is or isn't villainous or heroic. That's up
to the audience. Or the player, in this case.

not so much since:

1: Bioware defines shepard as a hero (they call him/her hero soooo many times) and he/she is the protagonist
2: Tim is the antagonist, by definition he opposes the protagonist, since the protagonist is identified as the hero by bioware then TIM is by necessity a villain



unless of course you want to go to Bioware and tell them they are wrong or that you disagree with them for calling their own character in their own story a hero.....

[Seboist]

Thompson family wrote...

Seboist wrote...


TIM in the mission complete summaries talks about needing Quarians,Geth,Krogan and Vorcha in the Reaper war.

So being pro-human =/= anti-alien.

So TIM sings kubaya too?

If this is a debate, pick a side.

TIM is pragmatic, Shepard (regardless of Paragon or Renegade) is too much of an idealistic idiot who's far too trusting of a lot of people.

[Saaziel]

I will be disappointed if Cerberus/ T.I.M. ends up being in league with the reapers.

I've not been familiar with Bioware's work for very long ; But for the most part they seem unable to create "good' (Interesting/ original) bad guys. And those whom they managed to build up a mystic about , they kill or dumb down to the "I r iz evl bekuz i h8 u lolz!!111! ".

Shadow broker got killed twice in the DLC ; Once by the Yahgg before the events of LotSB and again by Shep/ Liara. The Reapers seemed like Cthulhu-esque horrors from beyond but now they're more like giant bugs with an extravagant reproduction method. TIM used to have this "Devil with blue eyes" vibe , now (If we're to believe the rumours) he's simply "The devil" .

Its disheartening because i could write something like that (though with more grammatical errors) , and i'm a terrible writer. Sometimes i figure all we're missing now is the "It was all a dream" ending.

[KainrycKarr]

PsychoWARD23 wrote...

XavierHollywood wrote...

eh, i dunno, Cerberus was always black and white to me

Pro-Human while doing some questionable things is more grey than working for the Reapers.

There was nothing questionable or grey to me about the final conversation with TIM. That seemed pretty clear just what kind of individual I was dealing with.

[Someone With Mass]

lolwut666 wrote...

Sigh...

Those Cerberus supporters both scare and disgust me. The latter more than the former.

Same here. They're always ready to bend words and pull stuff right out of  their asses to fit their views of things.

Just like TIM. Probably why they feel so connected to him.