Just so y'all know, Shepard can be with the Alliance and still be "pro-human". There's nothing that says it's exclusive to Cerberus.
*sighs* Why did Cerberus have to become black and white again?
Débuté par
PsychoWARD23
, mai 06 2011 07:37
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#52
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 10:46
Seboist
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Someone With Mass wrote...
Just so y'all know, Shepard can be with the Alliance and still be "pro-human". There's nothing that says it's exclusive to Cerberus.
My Shep is for the both of them.
#53
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 10:47
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Thompson family wrote...
I hope that distinction is of great solace to you while your Shep and everyone else is in their melting pods.
I'm going to take your laughable attempt at snark as you conceding the argument. You aren't even trying to make a point here.
crimzontearz wrote...
1: Bioware defines shepard as a hero (they call him/her hero soooo many times) and he/she is the protagonist
Bioware describes Shepard as heroic and they certainly DO make him the undisputed protagonist. However what is or isn't "heroic" is subjective and is something that fundamentally the audience decides. I don't know how else to put this.
I'm inclined to think you are just a a shallow person incapable of forming your own opinions. Use your ****ing head and think for yourself for once, you peasant.
If I want to interpret the designated "hero" in a story as not really being heroic and the "villain" as being the true hero, I can. We do this all the time with films, novels, and theatre.
#54
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 10:53
Manic Sheep
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I haven’t seen much of start trek so I can’t really comment on that (shameful I know). I have never considered TIM to be a "good guy", even in ME2. He just wasn’t the guy you were fighting and you had bigger fish to deal with and all that and I like him in the same way I like Saren or Loghain. I agree with some of Cerberus basic stuff to some extent but they take it too far. I wouldn’t necessarily say he is evil, I don’t really use the term evil on anyone who isn’t a complete psychopath who just hurts people because they can. Different people use the term differently.Thompson family wrote...
Manic Sheep wrote...
Regardless of whether you consider Cerberus "grey" or not there is evil with motivations that make sense even if you don’t agree with them or their methods and then there is moustache twirling lets destroy the world kind of evil. TIM should want the reaper stopped as much as you do; they hurt him and his goals too. However at this point we only know they are fighting you. The article in PC gamer which I’m assuming is what sparked his thread was not trustworthy.
Of all people, Ricardo Montalban explains this the best. He turned in a great performance as Kahn in one of the Star Trek movies. People asked him how he saw that character. Montalban replied that no great villain sees himself as a villain. He sees himself as someone wronged, or someone in the service of a vital cause.
Likewise, TIM is not "moustache twirling" evil but he's no less villainous for that. He's lost all perspective. He's over the deep end, and his methods show it.
As for the magazine, it's true that Cerberus is after you. BioWare has confirmed that. It can be argued that he's not an active ally of the Reapers, perhaps, but the practical result is the same. Even if the Reapers "promised" Cerberus they'd make humans into Reapers and a dominant race, we all know what Reaper promises are worth. And even if that's true, it means TIM will accept the slaughter of trillions of other intelligent beings to serve his goals, and that's simply unaccceptable.
All I’m really hoping for is that bioware doesn’t hit him with the stupid bat, make him pointless evil or resort to just indoctrination and we probably won’t be able to see if they have done that until ME3 comes out.
Modifié par Manic Sheep, 06 mai 2011 - 10:56 .
#55
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 10:54
Thompson family
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Saphra Deden wrote...
Thompson family wrote...
I hope that distinction is of great solace to you while your Shep and everyone else is in their melting pods.
I'm going to take your laughable attempt at snark as you conceding the argument. You aren't even trying to make a point here.
Modifié par Thompson family, 06 mai 2011 - 10:56 .
#56
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 10:57
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TIM is a hero in my book and that's all that counts.
#57
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 10:58
Thompson family
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Manic Sheep wrote...
I haven’t seen much of start trek so I can’t really comment on that (shameful I know). I have never considered TIM to be a "good guy", even in ME2. He just wasn’t the guy you were fighting and you had bigger fish to deal with and all that and I like him in the same way I like Saren or Loghain. I agree with some of Cerberus basic stuff to some extent but they take it too far. I wouldn’t necessarily say he is evil, I don’t really use the term evil on anyone who isn’t a complete psychopath who just hurts people because they can. Different people use the term differently.
All I’m really hoping for is that bioware doesn’t hit him with the stupid bat, make him pointless evil or resort to just indoctrination and we probably won’t be able to see if they have done that until ME3 comes out.
Our views are not that far apart, then. BioWare's set itself up for quite a backflip, story-telling wise. I hope they can pull it off.
#58
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:13
crimzontearz
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Saphra Deden wrote...
Thompson family wrote...
I hope that distinction is of great solace to you while your Shep and everyone else is in their melting pods.
I'm going to take your laughable attempt at snark as you conceding the argument. You aren't even trying to make a point here.crimzontearz wrote...
1: Bioware defines shepard as a hero (they call him/her hero soooo many times) and he/she is the protagonist
Bioware describes Shepard as heroic and they certainly DO make him the undisputed protagonist. However what is or isn't "heroic" is subjective and is something that fundamentally the audience decides. I don't know how else to put this.
I'm inclined to think you are just a a shallow person incapable of forming your own opinions. Use your ****ing head and think for yourself for once, you peasant.
If I want to interpret the designated "hero" in a story as not really being heroic and the "villain" as being the true hero, I can. We do this all the time with films, novels, and theatre.
yeah...no, but good try
#59
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:17
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crimzontearz wrote...
yeah...no, but good try
I resent it when my adversaries don't even give the debate any effort and then try to save face by bowing out with a snarky comment. You'd look better if you just silently left instead of trying to have the last word.
The director, writer, ect, can tell the audience who the protagonists and antagonists are. However they can't tell the audience who they will sypmathize with or who they will hate. Nobody can control that.
Thus it is the audience deciding who is the villain and who is the hero.
#60
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:20
lolwut666
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@Saphra Deden
No. It is the audience who decides who they like and who they don't.
Hero and villain remain the same. The goals of the hero will always have better results than the villain's; that's why he is the hero.
No. It is the audience who decides who they like and who they don't.
Hero and villain remain the same. The goals of the hero will always have better results than the villain's; that's why he is the hero.
#61
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Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:26
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lolwut666 wrote...
@Saphra Deden
No. It is the audience who decides who they like and who they don't.
Hero and villain remain the same.
No, that isn't how it works. Read a dictionary sometime. You won't embarass yourself as often.
Here, I'll help you.
vil·lain
[vil-uh
n] –noun
1. a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.
2. a character in a play, novel, or the like, who constitutes an important evil agency in the plot.
an·tag·o·nist
[an-tag-uh-nist] –noun
1. a person who is opposed to, struggles against, or competes with another; opponent; adversary.
2. the adversary of the hero or protagonist of a drama or other literary work: Iago is the antagonist of Othello.
Not the same thing, now are they?
he·ro
[heer-oh] –noun, plural -roes; for 5 also -ros.
1.a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2.a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
3. the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
pro·tag·o·nist
[proh-tag-uh-nist] –noun 1. the leading character, hero, or heroine of a drama or other literary work.
2. a proponent for or advocate of a political cause, social program, etc.
3. the leader or principal person in a movement, cause, etc.
More similar, but according to the definitions the hero/protagonist can be designated as such but it is up to the audience to decide whether they actually posses heroic qualities.
I win, again, thank you, it's been fun.
#62
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:27
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Saphra Deden wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
yeah...no, but good try
I resent it when my adversaries don't even give the debate any effort and then try to save face by bowing out with a snarky comment. You'd look better if you just silently left instead of trying to have the last word.
The director, writer, ect, can tell the audience who the protagonists and antagonists are. However they can't tell the audience who they will sypmathize with or who they will hate. Nobody can control that.
Thus it is the audience deciding who is the villain and who is the hero.
you are thinking too much of yourself, I merely do not find it worth my time to actually argue with you. I am not your adversary, I am merely someone who really cannot be bothered by you
#63
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:30
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crimzontearz wrote...
you are thinking too much of yourself, I merely do not find it worth my time to actually argue with you. I am not your adversary, I am merely someone who really cannot be bothered by you
It's alright, I know how you really feel. That you came back just to tell me that says it all.
#64
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:36
RaenImrahl
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Let's dial down the pedantic snark, please. Stay on topic, lest the topic be closed. Thanks.
-- RI
-- RI
#65
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:38
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Cerberus was rotten from the get-go. I'm starting to wonder how many people actually played the first game.
#66
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Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:42
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Darth Death wrote...
Cerberus was rotten from the get-go. I'm starting to wonder how many people actually played the first game.
Cerberus didn't have any personality in the first game. We had no context for their actions and no hint of their motivations.
#67
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:46
lolwut666
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@Saphra Deden
Feel free to claim victory if you want; that doesn't change the way things work.
In fiction, it is ESTABLISHED that, should the hero fail, things would end badly. Which is preciselly my point. There's only a happy ending if the hero wins.
You can't decide which party will bring that happy ending, because it's already set in stone. Which is why you can't simply claim that the character you like is the hero.
Feel free to claim victory if you want; that doesn't change the way things work.
In fiction, it is ESTABLISHED that, should the hero fail, things would end badly. Which is preciselly my point. There's only a happy ending if the hero wins.
You can't decide which party will bring that happy ending, because it's already set in stone. Which is why you can't simply claim that the character you like is the hero.
#68
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Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:47
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The dictionary says otherwise.
#69
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:49
lolwut666
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That's not how it works in practice.
Just read any piece of fiction and learn.
Just read any piece of fiction and learn.
#70
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:52
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lolwut666 wrote...
That's not how it works in practice.
Yes, it is.
You know how I know? I have my own experience. I decide who is the real villain and who is the real hero in any narrative I follow.
Perhaps you are completely enslaved to 'official' doctrine and public opinion, but I'm not. So, don't try to speak for me.
I'm clearly a much deeper thinker than you are.
#71
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:57
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In the interest of not getting the thread closed, I'll be nice. (Earlier post deleted.)
Modifié par Thompson family, 07 mai 2011 - 12:00 .
#72
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:58
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@Saphra Deden
No. You are a self-righteous fool.
In The Dark Tower, had the Crimson King not been stopped, reality itself would have been destroyed, for example.
No. You are a self-righteous fool.
In The Dark Tower, had the Crimson King not been stopped, reality itself would have been destroyed, for example.
Modifié par lolwut666, 06 mai 2011 - 11:58 .
#73
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:59
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lolwut666 wrote...
In The Dark Tower, had the Crimson King been stopped, reality itself would have been destroyed, for example.
So? That makes him an antagonist, maybe even a villain depending on his motivations and behavior and the perspective of the reader.
However another reader may see everything he does and feel he is justified and fighting for the greater good. Maybe you'd say that person is warped, so would I, but their interpretation of the narrative would be just as valid as yours or mine.
#74
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 12:01
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Saphra Deden wrote...
lolwut666 wrote...
In The Dark Tower, had the Crimson King been stopped, reality itself would have been destroyed, for example.
So? That makes him an antagonist, maybe even a villain depending on his motivations and behavior and the perspective of the reader.
However another reader may see everything he does and feel he is justified and fighting for the greater good. Maybe you'd say that person is warped, so would I, but their interpretation of the narrative would be just as valid as yours or mine.
No. That would make them stupid, just like you are being.
#75
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 07 mai 2011 - 12:06
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lolwut666 wrote...
No. That would make them stupid, just like you are being.
Really now, can't we put at least a little effort into this?
I might agree with you that someone agreeing with the Crimson King is stupid (I've never read the books), but that's not the point. I also think anyone who sees TIM and Cerberus as villains is stupid, but I suspect you'd resent that label. For the purposes of the point I was making, anyone who hates TIM and thinks he's a villain has a perfectly valid opinion about him.
I'd say they are... misguided and uninformed though.
