338 réponses à ce sujet

[squee913]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

I hope that distinction is of great solace to you while your Shep and everyone else is in their melting pods.

I'm going to take your laughable attempt at snark as you conceding the argument. You aren't even trying to make a point here.

crimzontearz wrote...

1: Bioware defines shepard as a hero (they call him/her hero soooo many times) and he/she is the protagonist

Bioware describes Shepard as heroic and they certainly DO make him the undisputed protagonist. However what is or isn't "heroic" is subjective and is something that fundamentally the audience decides. I don't know how else to put this.

I'm inclined to think you are just a a shallow person incapable of forming your own opinions. Use your ****ing head and think for yourself for once, you peasant.

If I want to interpret the designated "hero" in a story as not really being heroic and the "villain" as being the true hero, I can. We do this all the time with films, novels, and theatre.

Who says that attempt at snark was laughable? Isn't that subjective? I thought it was rather good. Subjectivity is a funny thing. For instance, you seem to think you are more intelligent than everyone else, and I think the fact you look down on others and insult them simply because they do not share your view is quite the opposite of intelligent. You are both right about being a hero/villain. It is in your own definition:


vil·lain   [vil-uhn]

–noun
1. a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.
2. a character in a play, novel, or the like, who constitutes an important evil agency in the plot.


he·ro   [heer-oh]  

–noun, plural -roes; for 5 also -ros.
1.a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2.a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
3. the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.

The definition says a villain is involved in wickedness or crime. Many of TIM activity are considered by most to have a certain amount of wickedness and are most certainly crimes. There fore, by your own definition, TIM is a villain.  Like wise, Hero is defined as a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities. The people in the mass effect universe most certainly admire these qualities in Shepard, and he is defiantly considered the hero of the story. (I could also point out that he is the principal character in a story) Personal opinions do not change this fact.

On the other hand, how you feel about him personally can be very different. He may or may not be a hero to you. So you are both right. If anything it was a simple misunderstanding of what each other meant, not (as you seem to be fond of pointing out) a lack of intelligence.

[squee913]

Saphra Deden wrote...

squee913 wrote...

You are both right about being a hero/villain.

Kid, if you can't follow the conversation then please stay out.

If Lolwut or whoever wants to see Shepard as the hero and TIM as the villain they are entitled to see it that way. I'm entitled to see Paragon Shep as the true villain if I want to. I'm not disputing the subjectivity of this. My adversaries were arguing that there was no subjectivity. Obviously that is wrong, as I just proved, and as you just so helpfully backed up.

Thanks for the unintended support.

Kid??? Was that an attempt to call me immature or do you have so many offspring that you are calling me one just in case I’m one of them? Also, try actually reading the post for a change. My issue was not with you telling people their view was not valid. My issue was with you insulting someone’s intelligence simply because their view was different from yours… especially when your own definitions showed that hey had a valid point.

Modifié par squee913, 07 mai 2011 - 12:21 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

We don't know that Cerberus is "black-and-white" yet. Hold your goddamn horses on that point. Saren most definitely was not black-and-white, and Cerberus has seen far too much development in ME2 and in external media to just go out with a whimper like that.

[Bad King]

lolwut666 wrote...

Sigh...

Those Cerberus supporters both scare and disgust me. The latter more than the former.

So you are scared/disgusted by other peoples' characters' opinions on a fictional character in a videogame?

[squee913]

Saphra Deden wrote...

squee913 wrote...

Kid??? Was that an attempt to call me immature or do you have so many offspring that you are calling me one just in case I’m one of them? Also, try actually reading the post for a change. My issue was not with you telling people their view was not valid. My issue was with you insulting someone’s intelligence simply because their view was different from yours… especially when your own definitions showed that hey had a valid point.

Didnt your mommy ever teach you not to lie? If your only point was that I shouldn't regard myself as intelligent then why did you write such a long, rambling post about heroes and villains? Just admit you were off base a bit.

Regardless, I think we've settled the issue so lets move on.

Read. The. Post. I was very clear in my intetions. You called him an idiot for thinking a certain way. I wrote a long and rambling post to show that he was not. Just admit that you didn't read the post, or didn't understand the post.

Regardless, I think we've settled the issue so lets move on.

[lolwut666]

@Bad King

No. I'm scared/disgusted by those who come to the forum to defend Cerberus' policies as if their lives depend on it.

[Someone With Mass]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Bad King

No. I'm scared/disgusted by those who come to the forum to defend Cerberus' policies as if their lives depend on it.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[squee913]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Bad King

No. I'm scared/disgusted by those who come to the forum to defend Cerberus' policies as if their lives depend on it.

Well, to be fair, people against Cerberus argue just as passionately... (odd to say being one of them, but let's be honest) 

[Dave666]

squee913 wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

@Bad King

No. I'm scared/disgusted by those who come to the forum to defend Cerberus' policies as if their lives depend on it.

Well, to be fair, people against Cerberus argue just as passionately... (odd to say being one of them, but let's be honest) 

True, but some of us just give up after a while and just start laughing.

You can only argue for so long before you have to wonder, whats the point?  Its only a video game.

[Bad King]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Bad King

No. I'm scared/disgusted by those who come to the forum to defend Cerberus' policies as if their lives depend on it.

Well, some of the anti-cerberus people who post here have a similar sort of obsessiveness although they try and attack every single Cerberus action, including some of the necessary things that Cerberus has done. I'm no fan of Cerberus but I find it a bit silly that they are argued over so much by these two extremes. 

[Seboist]

Bad King wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

@Bad King

No. I'm scared/disgusted by those who come to the forum to defend Cerberus' policies as if their lives depend on it.

Well, some of the anti-cerberus people who post here have a similar sort of obsessiveness although they try and attack every single Cerberus action, including some of the necessary things that Cerberus has done. I'm no fan of Cerberus but I find it a bit silly that they are argued over so much by these two extremes. 

Being fans of a Salarian scientist who helped sterilize an entire species or a robot from a mass murdering synthethic race is cool but a fan of Cerberus? That's going too far there buddy.

[squee913]

Dave666 wrote...

squee913 wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

@Bad King

No. I'm scared/disgusted by those who come to the forum to defend Cerberus' policies as if their lives depend on it.

Well, to be fair, people against Cerberus argue just as passionately... (odd to say being one of them, but let's be honest) 

True, but some of us just give up after a while and just start laughing.

You can only argue for so long before you have to wonder, whats the point?  Its only a video game.

I feel ya! Thank Zeus I can type while laughing

[Thompson family]

Back on topic:

Why did Cerberus go bad? My argument was that they were never even gray. The counter argument was that they could be gray -- that maybe even they didn't go bad, and have a plan.

To which others including myself went: Huh?

We know that in ME3, Shep's going to running around the galaxy, trying to convince a variety of species to join in a counter-attack.

We know that Cerberus, for whatever reason, is trying to stop him. Some have argued that this Cerberus opposition is merely "cover" to give him more credibility, but we also know TIM will send his best assassin after Shep. If there's a theory that reconciles those fact, I'd love to hear it.

Now, if somebody wants to argue that humans stand a better chance of beating the Reapers all by themselves than they do joining forces with any or all the species that follow, I'd love to hear that pitch: Turians, Asari, Salarians, Quarians, Krogan, Geth, Rachni and even Batarians. That's just the major space faring species. There's also Elcor, Volus, Hanar and so forth, plus the various multi-species mercs.

Have at it.

Modifié par Thompson family, 07 mai 2011 - 01:49 .

[Quole]

Cerberus was ALWAYS black and white.

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Yes "terrorists" spend billions on reviving someone, spend billions more giving him a better ship than he had before and then allow him free reign to do decisions the head "terrorist" himself says he would have done differently.

Nuh uh..

They've been declared terrorists by the Alliance and the Council, and I've read about their "deeds" so that's what I'm going with.

You've read about their deeds, and still go with the Alliance/Council label?

That's... remarkably silly, all things considered. (Like what terrorism involves.)

Cerberus may yet be terrorists, but nothing we've seen or read really fits the label yet.

[Dean_the_Young]

Bad King wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

Sigh...

Those Cerberus supporters both scare and disgust me. The latter more than the former.

So you are scared/disgusted by other peoples' characters' opinions on a fictional character in a videogame?

lolwut has a very fragile constitution, you see.

[Almostfaceman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Bad King wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

Sigh...

Those Cerberus supporters both scare and disgust me. The latter more than the former.

So you are scared/disgusted by other peoples' characters' opinions on a fictional character in a videogame?

lolwut has a very fragile constitution, you see.

That's right, they're nothing compared to you internet tough guys.

[mcsupersport]

Dean_the_Young wrote...



That's... remarkably silly, all things considered. (Like what terrorism involves.)

Cerberus may yet be terrorists, but nothing we've seen or read really fits the label yet.

The huskification of an entire colony.
The use of Thresher Maws to kill multiple Allaince military groups.
The experimentation on captured Allaince military personel.
The almost release of virtulent computer virus that may have destroyed massive computer networks up to all networks(Overlord).
Assasinations and bribery to further their political and economic causes.
Brutal and unethical experimentation on Sentinent beings including humans without permission, resulting in countless deaths.
This is just from ME1 and ME2 without getting into books and comics.  So yeah, I would call them terrorists.

[didymos1120]

mcsupersport wrote...

The huskification of an entire colony.
The use of Thresher Maws to kill multiple Allaince military groups.
The experimentation on captured Allaince military personel.
The almost release of virtulent computer virus that may have destroyed massive computer networks up to all networks(Overlord).
Assasinations and bribery to further their political and economic causes.
Brutal and unethical experimentation on Sentinent beings including humans without permission, resulting in countless deaths.
This is just from ME1 and ME2 without getting into books and comics.  So yeah, I would call them terrorists.

These things are criminal.  But they're not terrorism in the strict sense: acts of violence where the entire point is to instill widespread terror as a means of acheiving some political/ideological goal.  Cerberus generally doesn't want the "eyes of the galaxy" upon it.  It in fact goes to great lengths to cover things up and doesn't publicize its activities. Take the assassinations: you only know about them because of the Shadow Broker's very non-public files or because you read Ascension where we have a chapter from the POV of one of the participants in an assassination, who told no one.  Genuine terrorist organizations, by contrast, absolutely do want attention, and lots of it.  It's one of their primary goals.

Modifié par didymos1120, 07 mai 2011 - 03:03 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Almostfaceman wrote...


That's right, they're nothing compared to you internet tough guys.

I suppose if you want to consider me a tough guy, that's your perogative. I view myself more as a case of general apathy, really: if you get worked up by anyone you meet online who doesn't even try to needle, you'd have a hard time staying anywhere for long, let alone in places where some people try to provoke responses by trolling others.

[Someone With Mass]

They've been declared terrorists by two major factions in Mass Effect (the Alliance and the Council) and combine that with some of the acts they've done in the past, I'm accepting it.

[Dean_the_Young]

didymos1120 wrote...

mcsupersport wrote...

The huskification of an entire colony.
The use of Thresher Maws to kill multiple Allaince military groups.
The experimentation on captured Allaince military personel.
The almost release of virtulent computer virus that may have destroyed massive computer networks up to all networks(Overlord).
Assasinations and bribery to further their political and economic causes.
Brutal and unethical experimentation on Sentinent beings including humans without permission, resulting in countless deaths.
This is just from ME1 and ME2 without getting into books and comics.  So yeah, I would call them terrorists.

These things are criminal.  But they're not terrorism in the strict sense: acts of violence where the entire point is to instill terror as a means of acheiving some political goal.  Cerberus generally doesn't want the "eyes of the galaxy" upon it.  It in fact goes to great lengths to cover things up and doesn't publicize its activities. Genuine terrorist organizations, by contrast, absolutely do want attention, and lots of it.  It's one of their primary goals.

This, pretty much. Cerberus is more of a cabal than terrorist, even if 'cabal' lacks the modern weight. Terrorism is a sexy label to sling around, whether it's deserved or not: the Council and Alliance certainly wouldn't be the first governments to go around labeling indisputably criminal groups as terrorists for maximum emotional effect on their true target, the public.