338 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Thompson family wrote...

Not a bad argument, DtY, although I'd counter that TIM thinks he or humanity would acheive their "ultimate form" as a Reaper: Can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Why should he believe in the Reaper's 'ultimate' vision for humanity, any more than he did the Council's 'ultimate' vision for Humanity in the scope of the Council system, or the Alliance's vision for Humanity, or any of hundreds of other competing views on the 'best' place for Humanity?

Moreover, why should he have turned over a new leaf despite his opposition to the Reapers in the form of the Grayson Project of Retribution, as well his repeated internal musings from the story about the need to fight and oppose the Reapers?

This even though he was still opposed to the Reapers a year after learning of their means of construction.

[88mphSlayer]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Not a bad argument, DtY, although I'd counter that TIM thinks he or humanity would acheive their "ultimate form" as a Reaper: Can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Why should he believe in the Reaper's 'ultimate' vision for humanity, any more than he did the Council's 'ultimate' vision for Humanity in the scope of the Council system, or the Alliance's vision for Humanity, or any of hundreds of other competing views on the 'best' place for Humanity?

Moreover, why should he have turned over a new leaf despite his opposition to the Reapers in the form of the Grayson Project of Retribution, as well his repeated internal musings from the story about the need to fight and oppose the Reapers?

This even though he was still opposed to the Reapers a year after learning of their means of construction.

everything about TIM points to a guy who wants humanity to have the ultimate control over their own sovereignty... submitting to the reapers is no different than submitting to the council this regard

[ExtremeOne]

mrsph wrote...

How does Cerberus betraying you render the second game pointless? The point of the game was to gather a team, and kill the collectors, you did that. It wasn't, "Cerberus Worship Simulator 2." Not to mention you can see TIM turning on you a mile away.

And it still isn't explained why they turn on you in 3. So it is really to early to scream about it.

    









So what are we suppose to just do what they said and view any info on the game as fake unless they say so . They put it in the GI article . Are we going to say GI just assumed that as well . As far as Mass Effect 2 being point less . Cerberus in ME 2 wants to stop the reapers and collectors . How the hell does things change so quickly in 3
 .   It makes no sense at all . well E3 is coming so they will have to answer some questions then . 

[Dean_the_Young]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Cerberus is a detriment to the human race.

While it's easy enough to disagree with this, it's a funny fact that the political race only exists as a political unit as much as it does because of Cerberus's influence. From influencing the politics to assassinating leaders not favorable enough to the Alliance, Cerberus has been a subtle but significant force for creating and maintaining the political unit of the Alliance on the galactic stage.

'The Human Race' would be a far more devided, less meaningful term if it weren't for political unity pressed by Cerberus.

[mcsupersport]

I still laugh at all the people that refuse to remember all the things they should have seen in ME1, the missions they should have seen in ME2, because of the propaganda told to them by Cerberus operatives. Gee, just forget that we kill kids, military personnel, colonies, and endanger the galaxy with illegal research into hybrid Human/AI intelligence, we are just misunderstood individuals who want to save the galaxy. Please remember we love everyone, ........well those we don't kill, but we love what we learn from them, and we loved them before they died too.

Evil is as Evil does, and you can't be good, while killing babies and enjoying it. Miranda, TIM, and Kelly sold you a bill of goods that Cerberus was just misunderstood and you bought it even after seeing what they DID. I hope that this is only happens in the game world, not in your real life, otherwise you are really scary people.

[Thompson family]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Not a bad argument, DtY, although I'd counter that TIM thinks he or humanity would acheive their "ultimate form" as a Reaper: Can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Why should he believe in the Reaper's 'ultimate' vision for humanity, any more than he did the Council's 'ultimate' vision for Humanity in the scope of the Council system, or the Alliance's vision for Humanity, or any of hundreds of other competing views on the 'best' place for Humanity?

Moreover, why should he have turned over a new leaf despite his opposition to the Reapers in the form of the Grayson Project of Retribution, as well his repeated internal musings from the story about the need to fight and oppose the Reapers?

This even though he was still opposed to the Reapers a year after learning of their means of construction.

Those are good questions -- which get back to my original question. If he believes humanity has a better chance alone, why would he believe that?

There may be an answer to that question, a very good answer, but I can't figure it out. I've also not read the comics and have read only one of the books, the first one that ended with Saren finding Sovereign. So I don't know if those other sources can shed light on this. I would like to know.

I'm freely admitting there may be a possiblity here I've overlooked and am willing to consider any theories along that line.

Modifié par Thompson family, 07 mai 2011 - 04:09 .

[Thompson family]

88mphSlayer wrote...

everything about TIM points to a guy who wants humanity to have the ultimate control over their own sovereignty... submitting to the reapers is no different than submitting to the council this regard

So why is he trying to kill Shep? I'm open to any plausible theories on that one.

[Dean_the_Young]

Thompson family wrote...

Those are good questions -- which get back to my original question. If he believes humanity has a better chance alone, why would he believe that?

Why do we presume he does believe that? TIM's not anti-Human-Alien cooperation. He's funded, backed, and killed a lot of obstacles to such cooperation.

What TIM's manifesto focuses on, and in many respects is echoed by Ashley, is that Humanity needs to be able to be able to stand on its own if it has to. This is the survivalist aspect of Cerberus's survivalist-attribute. The Illusive Man takes it further with ambitions afterwards as well. This isn't an argue that cooperation should be avoided, but rather that cooperation must not be required whenever possible.

[Dean_the_Young]

Thompson family wrote...

So why is he trying to kill Shep? I'm open to any plausible theories on that one.

Shepard could be indoctrinated, Shepard could be working off of horribly erronious data that will lead to disaster, Cerberus may be working off of bad data, TIM may not actually be trying to kill Shepard but need to put a pretty good show of trying...

[lolwut666]

@Dean_the_Young

TIM does not like to work with aliens. Retribution makes that clear. He is just smart enough to acknowledge when an alien is better at something than his operatives.

Plus he was sending the aliens to a Suicide Mission, anyway.

[Thompson family]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Those are good questions -- which get back to my original question. If he believes humanity has a better chance alone, why would he believe that?

Why do we presume he does believe that? TIM's not anti-Human-Alien cooperation. He's funded, backed, and killed a lot of obstacles to such cooperation.

What TIM's manifesto focuses on, and in many respects is echoed by Ashley, is that Humanity needs to be able to be able to stand on its own if it has to. This is the survivalist aspect of Cerberus's survivalist-attribute. The Illusive Man takes it further with ambitions afterwards as well. This isn't an argue that cooperation should be avoided, but rather that cooperation must not be required whenever possible.

Earth is ransacked and under occupation. How on Earth (pardon the pun) does he reason that now  is the time to show humanity can stand on its own?

To show good faith, what I'm getting from your argument is that if Earth goes running to the Council races for help now, they'll be in debt to the other species forever and be weak and dominated in a Council system. He'd rather risk a long-shot, all human victory than have humanity "rescued" by the Council.

If that's your argument, I'm having a hard time seeing how risking extinction is going to make humanity stronger.

[Thompson family]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

So why is he trying to kill Shep? I'm open to any plausible theories on that one.

Shepard could be indoctrinated, Shepard could be working off of horribly erronious data that will lead to disaster, Cerberus may be working off of bad data, TIM may not actually be trying to kill Shepard but need to put a pretty good show of trying...

One the last point, I would say that sending Cerberus' top assassin after Shep is a very good show indeed.

[Dean_the_Young]

lolwut666 wrote...

@Dean_the_Young

TIM does not like to work with aliens. Retribution makes that clear. He is just smart enough to acknowledge when an alien is better at something than his operatives.

Plus he was sending the aliens to a Suicide Mission, anyway.

And he'll work with them when it isn't a suicide mission: the Shadow Broker dossiers puts TIM's correspondance list in every major alien capital, and even the Migrant Fleet where it can't be passed off as Human (Cerberus) recipients.

TIM is ambivalent about Aliens in practice, considering he runs a distinctly pro-Human group. He's not against working with them (or anyone) when it suits him... which, technically, is a truism. More relevantly, a significant number of the Broker's doessier on Cerberus is on Cerberus assassinations that allowed for better Human relations with the Council races. Whether or not TIM, personally, dislikes working with Aliens, he's been in no way oppositional to the Alliance working with Aliens, and has many acts of support to his name.

[Thompson family]

Saphra Deden wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

everything about TIM points to a guy who wants humanity to have the ultimate control over their own sovereignty... submitting to the reapers is no different than submitting to the council this regard

However if the choice is "become extinct" or "become a Reaper" I suspect he'll opt to become a Reaper.

Agreed, Saphra Deden.

[Dean_the_Young]

Thompson family wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

So why is he trying to kill Shep? I'm open to any plausible theories on that one.

Shepard could be indoctrinated, Shepard could be working off of horribly erronious data that will lead to disaster, Cerberus may be working off of bad data, TIM may not actually be trying to kill Shepard but need to put a pretty good show of trying...

One the last point, I would say that sending Cerberus' top assassin after Shep is a very good show indeed.

Whether TIM considers Kai Shep's equal is, of course, known only to TIM. This is a man who (correctly) forsaw that the Collector Ship wouldn't stop Shepard: no one claims his views on Kai's expendibility are any more sentimental than his views on Shepard's.

[Someone With Mass]

ExtremeOne wrote...
No the ones who are retarded is Bioware for creating dumb ass reasons for their so called great story 

And you are kind of a even greater ****** for not seeing the 180 from the obvious villain coming.

[Thompson family]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Whether TIM considers Kai Shep's equal is, of course, known only to TIM. This is a man who (correctly) forsaw that the Collector Ship wouldn't stop Shepard: no one claims his views on Kai's expendibility are any more sentimental than his views on Shepard's.

In either of those examples, TIM accepted the calculated risk that Shepard might die. Add the Suicide Mission to that.

Your post and others lead me to believe that the prevailing consensus among those who hold out hope for Cerberus in general and TIM in particular is that TIM is:
 
1. fooling the Reapers and having to put on a very convincing show to do it, perhaps even distracting the Reapers with Shepard, or
2. attacking Shepard to increase Shep's credibility with the Council.

Either of those is an awfully deep game. It seems more likely that TIM brought Shep back to life to increase Cerberus credibility in the eyes of humanity, then turned on Shep when Shep wouldn't go along with TIM's plans.

EDITED P.S. Also, I don't think Shep would need to be "rehabilitated" in the eyes of the Council considering that the invasion Shep warned them about is hitting.

Modifié par Thompson family, 07 mai 2011 - 04:39 .

[didymos1120]

laecraft wrote...
And that's after he saw what happened to the Protheans! This is the "ascension" that the Reapers are offering to humanity - remake us to suit their needs. They'd turn us into bugs and give us weapons so uncomfortable to wield that they cause necrosis to the tissue.

Were you paying attention to ME2 at all?  The only reason the Protheans became Collectors is because they weren't suitable Reaper material. Humanity is.  The "ascension" referred to is becoming a Reaper.  That's why Harbinger uses the word: they see it as making us into something greater, not lesser.

[Thompson family]

Saphra Deden wrote...

My hope for TIM is that his actions are logical and make sense considering his characterization. Nothing more. I won't be heartbroken if we have to fight him as long as it makes sense.

That's going to be a tall order. I'm intrigued at how this one is going to be pulled off -- and if it is pulled off.

[88mphSlayer]

Thompson family wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

everything about TIM points to a guy who wants humanity to have the ultimate control over their own sovereignty... submitting to the reapers is no different than submitting to the council this regard

So why is he trying to kill Shep? I'm open to any plausible theories on that one.

Shep stole TIM's cigarettes, that would drive anybody to make really irrational and dumb decisions

[Thompson family]

didymos1120 wrote...

Were you paying attention to ME2 at all?  The only reason the Protheans became Collectors is because they weren't suitable Reaper material. Humanity is.  The "ascension" referred to is becoming a Reaper.  That's why Harbinger uses the word: they see it as making us into something greater, not lesser.

Harbinger says on Horizon "prepare these humans for ascension." He tells Shep as Shep runs from the Collector ship: "We are your salvation through destruction." Harbinger says in almost every fight, "we are your genetic destiny."

[Thompson family]

88mphSlayer wrote...

Shep stole TIM's cigarettes, that would drive anybody to make really irrational and dumb decisions

Nah. I'm thinking TIM's mad because Miranda abandoned him for Shep -- and Miranda took those smokes.