338 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

Thompson family wrote...

Harbinger says on Horizon "prepare these humans for ascension." He tells Shep as Shep runs from the Collector ship: "We are your salvation through destruction." Harbinger says in almost every fight, "we are your genetic destiny."

Um, yeah, and...?

[Thompson family]

didymos1120 wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Harbinger says on Horizon "prepare these humans for ascension." He tells Shep as Shep runs from the Collector ship: "We are your salvation through destruction." Harbinger says in almost every fight, "we are your genetic destiny."

Um, yeah, and...?

I'm agreeing with you.

[mcsupersport]

Thompson family wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Whether TIM considers Kai Shep's equal is, of course, known only to TIM. This is a man who (correctly) forsaw that the Collector Ship wouldn't stop Shepard: no one claims his views on Kai's expendibility are any more sentimental than his views on Shepard's.

In either of those examples, TIM accepted the calculated risk that Shepard might die. Add the Suicide Mission to that.

Your post and others lead me to believe that the prevailing consensus among those who hold out hope for Cerberus in general and TIM in particular is that TIM is:
 
1. fooling the Reapers and having to put on a very convincing show to do it, perhaps even distracting the Reapers with Shepard, or
2. attacking Shepard to increase Shep's credibility with the Council.

Either of those is an awfully deep game. It seems more likely that TIM brought Shep back to life to increase Cerberus credibility in the eyes of humanity, then turned on Shep when Shep wouldn't go along with TIM's plans.

EDITED P.S. Also, I don't think Shep would need to be "rehabilitated" in the eyes of the Council considering that the invasion Shep warned them about is hitting.

How about this twist of the ME2 plot:

Reapers wanted Shepard alive for some technical reason and Cerberus was given the job of bringing him back.  Maybe the dead non-functional body/mind woudn't work for whatever experiment the Reapers/Collectors were running.  So TIM brings Shepard back and the uses Miranda who doesn't know all the score(ie plays her like a fiddle saying how "needed" Shepard is to save the galaxy/humans), to do the deed and when the SB uses his operative to attack Shepard, Miranda wakes him up.  Now TIM has an alive and awake guy that can cause serious harm, so why not send him to where he can be picked up along with a group of high grade specimen from other races.  So TIM sends Shepard to collect a team to take on the Collectors and offers him up to them 1st at Horizon, but Shepard wins, so next at the CS ambush, Shepard wins, so TIM sends him to the disabled Reaper for indoctrination, Shepard wins, and finally TIM sends him to the Collector base but against all odds Shepard wins.  So all along ME2 wasn't about TIM fighting the Collectors it was him trying to turn over a working body to the Collectors but Shepard is so bad****ed, that he beats them.

Now TIM is trying a more direct way to get Shepard out of the way and delivered to the Reapers...............

[didymos1120]

Thompson family wrote...

I'm agreeing with you.

OK, I thought so, but it's hard to be sure how someone's interpreting the dialogue when they just respond with "X said Y at time Z".

Modifié par didymos1120, 07 mai 2011 - 05:06 .

[Thompson family]

mcsupersport wrote...

 
How about this twist of the ME2 plot:

Reapers wanted Shepard alive for some technical reason and Cerberus was given the job of bringing him back.  Maybe the dead non-functional body/mind woudn't work for whatever experiment the Reapers/Collectors were running.  So TIM brings Shepard back and the uses Miranda who doesn't know all the score(ie plays her like a fiddle saying how "needed" Shepard is to save the galaxy/humans), to do the deed and when the SB uses his operative to attack Shepard, Miranda wakes him up.  Now TIM has an alive and awake guy that can cause serious harm, so why not send him to where he can be picked up along with a group of high grade specimen from other races.  So TIM sends Shepard to collect a team to take on the Collectors and offers him up to them 1st at Horizon, but Shepard wins, so next at the CS ambush, Shepard wins, so TIM sends him to the disabled Reaper for indoctrination, Shepard wins, and finally TIM sends him to the Collector base but against all odds Shepard wins.  So all along ME2 wasn't about TIM fighting the Collectors it was him trying to turn over a working body to the Collectors but Shepard is so bad****ed, that he beats them.

Now TIM is trying a more direct way to get Shepard out of the way and delivered to the Reapers...............

My first thought, mcsupersport, is that you were crazy. Maybe you are, or I am, or both. So let's have a go at this one anyway.

I think the comic makes it pretty clear (even though I've never read it) that the Collectors are serious rivals for Shep's body.

However, the attack on Lazerus station never was adequately explained. Could TIM have ordered the butchery by the mechs to kill off all the witnesses except Miranda and Jacob? Maybe, but we're way out on a speculation limb here.

The big problem with this theory that I can see at first blush is that TIM could have put a homing signal in the Normandy 2 that the Collectors could use and put a block on EDI forbidding her from reporting it. No need to put a beacon in the IFF.

[Thompson family]

didymos1120 wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

I'm agreeing with you.

OK, I thought so, but it's hard to be sure how someone's interpreting the dialogue when they just respond with "X said Y at time Z".

Will keep that in mind for the future.

[James2912]

I'm just real curious how they are going to reconcile the many people who were pro cerberus in their playthroughs. That is if Cerberus isn't working with the reapers then its obvious. As for my renegade shep he is going to be real confused when the guy he has been completely to orders him to be killed. Then again my paragon shep is going to be equally confused when the citadel council allows him to be put on trial after he has stayed completely loyal to them. Either way my sheps are going to be betrayed!

[mcsupersport]

Thompson family wrote...



My first thought, mcsupersport, is that you were crazy. Maybe you are, or I am, or both. So let's have a go at this one anyway.

I think the comic makes it pretty clear (even though I've never read it) that the Collectors are serious rivals for Shep's body.

However, the attack on Lazerus station never was adequately explained. Could TIM have ordered the butchery by the mechs to kill off all the witnesses except Miranda and Jacob? Maybe, but we're way out on a speculation limb here.

The big problem with this theory that I can see at first blush is that TIM could have put a homing signal in the Normandy 2 that the Collectors could use and put a block on EDI forbidding her from reporting it. No need to put a beacon in the IFF.

Ok, maybe then this, two years ago Cerberus was against the Reapers, and TIM came into possesion of a Reaper Aritifact, defunt of course.....and he orders Miranda to bring back Shepard at any cost...so time passes.  Now Two Years Later, Artifact has done it's job and he starts thinking how to get Shepard to the Reapers.  He can't just go all Reapers are friends all of a sudden, because Miranda or others might not go along with it, and he wants to stay incogneto as a Reaper agent....so what to do but send Shepard to the Collectors on "A Mission to save mankind" which in TIMs eyes he is because he is going to allow the "assention" of humanity.  So que me2 opening much like my earlier post.

[MACharlie1]

Thompson family wrote...

mcsupersport wrote...

 
How about this twist of the ME2 plot:

Reapers wanted Shepard alive for some technical reason and Cerberus was given the job of bringing him back.  Maybe the dead non-functional body/mind woudn't work for whatever experiment the Reapers/Collectors were running.  So TIM brings Shepard back and the uses Miranda who doesn't know all the score(ie plays her like a fiddle saying how "needed" Shepard is to save the galaxy/humans), to do the deed and when the SB uses his operative to attack Shepard, Miranda wakes him up.  Now TIM has an alive and awake guy that can cause serious harm, so why not send him to where he can be picked up along with a group of high grade specimen from other races.  So TIM sends Shepard to collect a team to take on the Collectors and offers him up to them 1st at Horizon, but Shepard wins, so next at the CS ambush, Shepard wins, so TIM sends him to the disabled Reaper for indoctrination, Shepard wins, and finally TIM sends him to the Collector base but against all odds Shepard wins.  So all along ME2 wasn't about TIM fighting the Collectors it was him trying to turn over a working body to the Collectors but Shepard is so bad****ed, that he beats them.

Now TIM is trying a more direct way to get Shepard out of the way and delivered to the Reapers...............

My first thought, mcsupersport, is that you were crazy. Maybe you are, or I am, or both. So let's have a go at this one anyway.

I think the comic makes it pretty clear (even though I've never read it) that the Collectors are serious rivals for Shep's body.

However, the attack on Lazerus station never was adequately explained. Could TIM have ordered the butchery by the mechs to kill off all the witnesses except Miranda and Jacob? Maybe, but we're way out on a speculation limb here.

The big problem with this theory that I can see at first blush is that TIM could have put a homing signal in the Normandy 2 that the Collectors could use and put a block on EDI forbidding her from reporting it. No need to put a beacon in the IFF.

Unless...the Reapers are playing them both. Perhaps TIM honestly wanted the Collectors out of the way - they were Protheans - could have answers in dealing with the Reapers AND they were given the oppertunity to survive the Reapers by becoming their servants. Remove the Collectors and the Reapers are going to need some new "ascended" servants from some races. Not wishful thinking but just a theory. 

[Thompson family]

It's a good thread but I have to sign out and get some sleep. Long day tomorrow so I don't know when I'll be back.

[Jzadek72]

Cerberus haven't actually changed their morals. They've always been out for human survival, and now they hope that by siding with the Reaper's, humanity shall survive. The only reason it seems so evil is that they are now targetting Shepard.

Of course, I thought they were evil bastards from the start, but I'm just pointing out, this actually does make sense.

[PrinceLionheart]

James2912 wrote...

I'm just real curious how they are going to reconcile the many people who were pro cerberus in their playthroughs. That is if Cerberus isn't working with the reapers then its obvious. As for my renegade shep he is going to be real confused when the guy he has been completely to orders him to be killed. Then again my paragon shep is going to be equally confused when the citadel council allows him to be put on trial after he has stayed completely loyal to them. Either way my sheps are going to be betrayed!

Honestly, the alliance with Cerberus in ME2 was an Enemy Mine situation at best..

Now while I hope that Bioware comes up witha good reason why Cerberus turned on Shepard so quickly (I'm guessing it's a combination of indoctrination and possibly Shepard's actions in Arrival), I can't help but feel the irony in all of this. Renegades always claim they never take blind risks like a paragon does, and paragons should suffer for their actions. I'd say giving Cerberus the collector base was a pretty damn big gamble.

[Marionetten]

I'm more upset about the fact that they made the renegade ending absolutely idiotic. Again.

Sure would be nice if at least one renegade choice was for the better.

Modifié par Marionetten, 07 mai 2011 - 03:34 .

[Dannyboy9876]

Marionetten wrote...
Sure would be nice if at least one renegade choice was for the better.

:/

Doesn't that defeat the point of being renegade? :/

[Seboist]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

James2912 wrote...

I'm just real curious how they are going to reconcile the many people who were pro cerberus in their playthroughs. That is if Cerberus isn't working with the reapers then its obvious. As for my renegade shep he is going to be real confused when the guy he has been completely to orders him to be killed. Then again my paragon shep is going to be equally confused when the citadel council allows him to be put on trial after he has stayed completely loyal to them. Either way my sheps are going to be betrayed!

Honestly, the alliance with Cerberus in ME2 was an Enemy Mine situation at best..

Now while I hope that Bioware comes up witha good reason why Cerberus turned on Shepard so quickly (I'm guessing it's a combination of indoctrination and possibly Shepard's actions in Arrival), I can't help but feel the irony in all of this. Renegades always claim they never take blind risks like a paragon does, and paragons should suffer for their actions. I'd say giving Cerberus the collector base was a pretty damn big gamble.

Shepard was the one who went out of his way to attack them in ME1. They were never a sworn enemy of his.

This whole ME3 situation is just pure bull****.

[Ausstig]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

James2912 wrote...

I'm just real curious how they are going to reconcile the many people who were pro cerberus in their playthroughs. That is if Cerberus isn't working with the reapers then its obvious. As for my renegade shep he is going to be real confused when the guy he has been completely to orders him to be killed. Then again my paragon shep is going to be equally confused when the citadel council allows him to be put on trial after he has stayed completely loyal to them. Either way my sheps are going to be betrayed!

Honestly, the alliance with Cerberus in ME2 was an Enemy Mine situation at best..

Now while I hope that Bioware comes up witha good reason why Cerberus turned on Shepard so quickly (I'm guessing it's a combination of indoctrination and possibly Shepard's actions in Arrival), I can't help but feel the irony in all of this. Renegades always claim they never take blind risks like a paragon does, and paragons should suffer for their actions. I'd say giving Cerberus the collector base was a pretty damn big gamble.

And yet all of the paragon gambles pay off, while the renegade one blows up in your face. So while you can say that it only really re-enforces the renegades point <_<

[Marionetten]

Dannyboy9876 wrote...

:/

Doesn't that defeat the point of being renegade? :/

On the contrary, it would give it a point. Renegade Shepard is supposed to be the effective and ruthless one whereas Paragon Shepard is supposed to be diplomatic and moralistic. As it stands, Paragon Shepard is diplomatic, moralistic and effective all in one. Renegade Shepard is merely ruthless for the sake of being ruthless. It's exceedingly stupid and makes most choices utterly meaningless.

I'd like to see a bit more equality here.

Modifié par Marionetten, 07 mai 2011 - 03:54 .

[Dannyboy9876]

Marionetten wrote...

Dannyboy9876 wrote...

:/

Doesn't that defeat the point of being renegade? :/

On the contrary, it would give it a point. Renegade Shepard is supposed to be the effective and ruthless one whereas Paragon Shepard is supposed to be diplomatic and moralistic. As it stands, Paragon Shepard is diplomatic, moralistic and effective all in one. Renegade Shepard is merely ruthless for the sake of being ruthless. It's exceedingly stupid and makes most choices utterly meaningless.

I'd like to see a bit more equality here.

I see your point.

Well, in ME2, saving the Collector base is a renegade option, it is ruthless and effective.

Destroying it will make people happy (except TIM) and is more moralistic.

So, maybe they will fix it in ME3.

[PrinceLionheart]

Ausstig wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

James2912 wrote...

I'm just real curious how they are going to reconcile the many people who were pro cerberus in their playthroughs. That is if Cerberus isn't working with the reapers then its obvious. As for my renegade shep he is going to be real confused when the guy he has been completely to orders him to be killed. Then again my paragon shep is going to be equally confused when the citadel council allows him to be put on trial after he has stayed completely loyal to them. Either way my sheps are going to be betrayed!

Honestly, the alliance with Cerberus in ME2 was an Enemy Mine situation at best..

Now while I hope that Bioware comes up witha good reason why Cerberus turned on Shepard so quickly (I'm guessing it's a combination of indoctrination and possibly Shepard's actions in Arrival), I can't help but feel the irony in all of this. Renegades always claim they never take blind risks like a paragon does, and paragons should suffer for their actions. I'd say giving Cerberus the collector base was a pretty damn big gamble.

And yet all of the paragon gambles pay off, while the renegade one blows up in your face. So while you can say that it only really re-enforces the renegades point <_<

What exactly has "blown up in the renegades face?" Seriously, I see this phrase thrown around but people very rarely ever backs it up. We don't know why Cerberus decided to go after Shepard claiming it to be slight against Renegades is just pure speculation.

[Marionetten]

Dannyboy9876 wrote...

I see your point.

Well, in ME2, saving the Collector base is a renegade option, it is ruthless and effective.

Destroying it will make people happy (except TIM) and is more moralistic.

So, maybe they will fix it in ME3.

It's not particularly effective if Cerberus turns out to be a Reaper controlled organization in Mass Effect 3. That would mean taking the station from them and then giving it right back. Utterly pointless. Now, it would be effective if Shepard was able to use it as a weapon against the Reapers.

While I'm hoping that they will fix it in Mass Effect 3 I'm highly skeptical. So far it has been a very one sided affair. If you played Mass Effect as a renegade through and through and imported that to Mass Effect 2 you lost out on a bunch of sidequests and got absolutely nothing in return.

[kaiki01]

Marionetten wrote...

I'm more upset about the fact that they made the renegade ending absolutely idiotic. Again.

Sure would be nice if at least one renegade choice was for the better.

If it was for the better, then it wouldn't be a renegade choice.

[lolwut666]

Some people here want Renegade actions to have Paragon consequences...

"Yeah, well, I decided to, like, NOT help the colony of Feros. I expect everybody to suck up to me and thank me for that."

"I didn't save the Council. It only makes sense that every alien should love me for that."

"I, y'know, killed the rachni. It's OBVIOUS that I should get an army of even MORE POWERFUL aliens to assist me against the Reapers."

"I killed Wrex on Vermire, so it's only natural that the new krogan leader - who I never met before - would be my number one fan and totally NOT indifferent towards me whatsoever."

Seriously...

Modifié par lolwut666, 07 mai 2011 - 04:12 .

[Marionetten]

lolwut666 wrote...

Some people here want Renegade actions to have Paragon consequences...

We want them to have different but worthwhile consequences. I don't see the issue here. Is it really so bad to want things to not be so utterly black and white? As it stands, the renegade playstyle has no merit beyond being a jerk whereas paragon Shepard is Space Jesus. This is what I'd like to see changed. Not everything can or should be solved through diplomacy.