97 réponses à ce sujet

[282xvl]

ExtremeOne wrote...
Right, because earth=humanity, and its sooooooo much better to let us all die out because our feelings got hurt when earth was taken. screw the survivors on the other colonies, if earth's gone, we may as well let all of humanity and the rest of the galaxy follow, right? right. and about the 7 million? we have no context for that, that could (and probably does) mean in london alone

In essense Earth does = Humanity. Population, industrial base and economic power wise Earth is what it's all about. Maybe not in a few hundred or thousand years, but look at the colonial data in the codex. Miniature populations less than present-day cities. Also there is no mention anywhere of colonial assets being able to construct, supply or service the Fleet. With no fleet, no industrial base, barely genetically viable and utterly defenseless minature population centers Humanity's outlook is grim indeed. Slavery (conquest/institutional or macro economical - there is little meaningful difference) at best and outright extermination at worst.

Call it species narccisim but IMO if I am dead why do I care about anyone or anything else? (Indeed, since I'm not alive I'm quite incapable of caring even if I would have been morally inclined to care whilst I was previously sucking down air.)

I will concede that there is no context for the 7 million dead in the intial invasion. I still stand by the logic that if the Reapers wanted to genocide the population, annihilate the industrial base or do anything at all other than occupy and suppress?/indoctrinate?/enslave? a mostly ALIVE population there is no sensible reason why they would refrain from mass orbital bombardment in lieu of a physical invasion.

[Darkhour]

PsychoWARD23 wrote...

 Earth is lost. Cerberus betrayed you. Civilazations are on the brink of war. You have to destroy the Reapers, but you have no idea how.

This theme of despair and hopelessness, of not knowing which way to go.... This could be awesome. 

That's one of things I couldn't stand about ME1.

"I'll stop em... somehow".

At least it makes sense in ME3.

[didymos1120]

282xvl wrote...

Also there is no mention anywhere of colonial assets being able to construct, supply or service the Fleet. With no fleet, no industrial base, barely genetically viable and utterly defenseless minature population centers Humanity's outlook is grim indeed.

Barely genetically viable? Do you have any idea how small human populations were in pre-history? And how isolated? Humanity could lose Earth and most of the colonies and still be perfectly genetically viable.  Even just a few tens of thousands would be enough.  Yes, all the other stuff is a problem, but viability? No.  Not remotely an issue.

[marshalleck]

didymos1120 wrote...

282xvl wrote...

Also there is no mention anywhere of colonial assets being able to construct, supply or service the Fleet. With no fleet, no industrial base, barely genetically viable and utterly defenseless minature population centers Humanity's outlook is grim indeed.

Barely genetically viable? Do you have any idea how small human populations were in pre-history? And how isolated? Humanity could lose Earth and most of the colonies and still be perfectly genetically viable.  Even just a few tens of thousands would be enough.  Yes, all the other stuff is a problem, but viability? No.  Not remotely an issue.

Which is funny, because our species seems to have barely survived an extreme population bottleneck not long in our past. Some researchers put the estimate as low as around 1,000 breeding pairs. Which makes us one of the least "genetically diverse" species known, contrary to what everyone was saying in ME2.  

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 mai 2011 - 07:08 .

[282xvl]

I concede that genetic viability is obviously 100% on, say, Eden Prime or Terra Nova - 3 AM brain fart. Still, all the tiny colonies with a few thousand or the planets with only a few hundred would be in trouble. In ME 1 a huge number of colony worlds had micro populations and there were mass recruiting drives to get people out there - these would have to be abandoned or shored up by the already low-density viable colonies, which would in turn slow the growth of their density to competitive levels of industrialization.

I'm interested on scientific source for ~1000 breeding pair viability that is intriguing! I was always under the impression anything less than about 10-20k would be hopelessly inbred within a few generations.

[marshalleck]

282xvl wrote...

I'm interested on scientific source for ~1000 breeding pair viability that is intriguing! I was always under the impression anything less than about 10-20k would be hopelessly inbred within a few generations.

Here's a primer. Obviously you'll want to hit the sources/notes rather than just the wikipedia entry alone. And there's no consensus about the number of breeding pairs...I only mentioned the lowest estimate. Some are higher, and some researchers aren't even convinced it happened. 

http://en.wikipedia....astrophe_theory

[Ahriman]

Full-scaled war, despair and betrayals are fun, but I have problem with fact that all races simultaneously decided to sort things out.
A: Have you heard that ancient race of sentient machines are harvesting humans and moving to us?
B: Yes. Good time to start a war!
A: Hurr-durr!
Oh, and the fact that Reapers don't use Citadel to disable relays. But it's theme of another topic and I hope it will be explained somehow.

ExtremeOne wrote...

If Earth is lost then I have no interest in saving the aliens home worlds in 3

I support "lie down and die" option in ME3.

[jamesp81]

282xvl wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...
Right, because earth=humanity, and its sooooooo much better to let us all die out because our feelings got hurt when earth was taken. screw the survivors on the other colonies, if earth's gone, we may as well let all of humanity and the rest of the galaxy follow, right? right. and about the 7 million? we have no context for that, that could (and probably does) mean in london alone

In essense Earth does = Humanity. Population, industrial base and economic power wise Earth is what it's all about. Maybe not in a few hundred or thousand years, but look at the colonial data in the codex. Miniature populations less than present-day cities. Also there is no mention anywhere of colonial assets being able to construct, supply or service the Fleet. With no fleet, no industrial base, barely genetically viable and utterly defenseless minature population centers Humanity's outlook is grim indeed. Slavery (conquest/institutional or macro economical - there is little meaningful difference) at best and outright extermination at worst.

Call it species narccisim but IMO if I am dead why do I care about anyone or anything else? (Indeed, since I'm not alive I'm quite incapable of caring even if I would have been morally inclined to care whilst I was previously sucking down air.)

I will concede that there is no context for the 7 million dead in the intial invasion. I still stand by the logic that if the Reapers wanted to genocide the population, annihilate the industrial base or do anything at all other than occupy and suppress?/indoctrinate?/enslave? a mostly ALIVE population there is no sensible reason why they would refrain from mass orbital bombardment in lieu of a physical invasion.

You are correct.  I don't agree with the supposition that the 7 million dead in a week is London only.  It makes no sense in the context we have.  BTW, crunch some numbers.  10 million killed per week means it would take 10 years for a 50% kill off of Earth's population.  Reaping is a slow process.  This is evidence in two places now; once by Vigil in ME1, and now by the ME3 trailer.

If the Reapers only want to genocide the Earth, there is no reason for them to land and start smoothy-izing everyone.  If they want to exterminate Earth's population, an orbital bombardment could take care of it in less than 24 hours.

[jamesp81]

Wizz wrote...

Full-scaled war, despair and betrayals are fun, but I have problem with fact that all races simultaneously decided to sort things out.
A: Have you heard that ancient race of sentient machines are harvesting humans and moving to us?
B: Yes. Good time to start a war!
A: Hurr-durr!
Oh, and the fact that Reapers don't use Citadel to disable relays. But it's theme of another topic and I hope it will be explained somehow.

ExtremeOne wrote...

If Earth is lost then I have no interest in saving the aliens home worlds in 3

I support "lie down and die" option in ME3.

If Earth can't be saved in ME3, I'm voting with my wallet.

[jamesp81]

282xvl wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...
Right, because earth=humanity, and its sooooooo much better to let us all die out because our feelings got hurt when earth was taken. screw the survivors on the other colonies, if earth's gone, we may as well let all of humanity and the rest of the galaxy follow, right? right. and about the 7 million? we have no context for that, that could (and probably does) mean in london alone

In essense Earth does = Humanity. Population, industrial base and economic power wise Earth is what it's all about. Maybe not in a few hundred or thousand years, but look at the colonial data in the codex. Miniature populations less than present-day cities. Also there is no mention anywhere of colonial assets being able to construct, supply or service the Fleet. With no fleet, no industrial base, barely genetically viable and utterly defenseless minature population centers Humanity's outlook is grim indeed. Slavery (conquest/institutional or macro economical - there is little meaningful difference) at best and outright extermination at worst.

Call it species narccisim but IMO if I am dead why do I care about anyone or anything else? (Indeed, since I'm not alive I'm quite incapable of caring even if I would have been morally inclined to care whilst I was previously sucking down air.)

I will concede that there is no context for the 7 million dead in the intial invasion. I still stand by the logic that if the Reapers wanted to genocide the population, annihilate the industrial base or do anything at all other than occupy and suppress?/indoctrinate?/enslave? a mostly ALIVE population there is no sensible reason why they would refrain from mass orbital bombardment in lieu of a physical invasion.

According to the numbers and what we know of the Alliance, yeah, lose Earth and the result is slavery at best, extermination at worst.

If the situation were real, and those were my two options, we would fight to the last man, woman, and child.  Literally.

In any case, as I mentioned above, I will be exercising my "vote with wallet" authority if Earth is depopulated.

[Ahriman]

jamesp81 wrote...
If Earth can't be saved in ME3, I'm voting with my wallet.

Of course it can be saved. That's the point of ME3.
Still I don't understand this way if thinking. Why are some people so tied with fictional place which they've never visited?

[marshalleck]

Wizz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
If Earth can't be saved in ME3, I'm voting with my wallet.

Of course it can be saved. That's the point of ME3.
Still I don't understand this way if thinking. Why are some people so tied with fictional place which they've never visited?

Earth is a fictional place we've never visited?

[Ahriman]

marshalleck wrote...
Earth is a fictional place we've never visited?

Yep, just look at calendar. I don't know about you, but I've never were in 2185.

[marshalleck]

Wizz wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Earth is a fictional place we've never visited?

Yep, just look at calendar. I don't know about you, but I've never were in 2185.

Though it's the future, it's still Earth. You know, the place our species originated. 

To quote from a far better man than I:

"Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam."

I think that's why people are interested in Earth.

[Ahriman]

marshalleck wrote...
Though it's the future, it's still Earth. You know, the place our species originated. 

To quote from a far better man than I:

"Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam."

I think that's why people are interested in Earth.

I understand why people are interested in Earth, I don't understand why they take it's destruction so close to heart. Not your home is destroyed, not your descendants are killed, not your state is under attack.

[Ahriman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Earth is the economic driving force behind human colonization and also affords the colonies a lot of manpower. Without it humanity's political clout will disappear very fast. We'll shrink in size, acquire lots of debt, and probably lose most of our sovereignty.

inb4 Zulu's eugenic theories.  Does destruction of Earth make humanity less interesting race or defeating Reapers less important? Or you simply want humanity to be major force in the galaxy?

[Markinator_123]

Wizz wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Earth is the economic driving force behind human colonization and also affords the colonies a lot of manpower. Without it humanity's political clout will disappear very fast. We'll shrink in size, acquire lots of debt, and probably lose most of our sovereignty.

inb4 Zulu's eugenic theories.  Does destruction of Earth make humanity less interesting race or defeating Reapers less important? Or you simply want humanity to be major force in the galaxy?

I personally want humanity to be a stronger force in the galaxy but I mainly don't want humanity to be totally reliant on the aliens. It is important for humanity to be able to take care of itself at times. Having aid from a foreign power is ok at times but at the end of the day all nations are trying to get ahead. Therefore, being total reliant on foreign aid is dangerous.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 08 mai 2011 - 10:37 .

[JoshieoPandar]

Indeed, as long as they don't overdo it. This would make great opportunities for potential sequels and spin-offs, friction in the relationships between the council races, and non-council races seeing this as an opportunity to conquer colonies and settlements in the Terminus systems eventually reaching Council space etc. I'd prefer if Bioware were to make their own canon decisions for their future titles.

[GnusmasTHX]

PsychoWARD23 wrote...

 Earth is lost. Cerberus betrayed you. Civilazations are on the brink of war. You have to destroy the Reapers, but you have no idea how.

This theme of despair and hopelessness, of not knowing which way to go.... This could be awesome. 

Hopelessness? More like:

[Jzadek72]

marshalleck wrote...

Wizz wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Earth is a fictional place we've never visited?

Yep, just look at calendar. I don't know about you, but I've never were in 2185.

Though it's the future, it's still Earth. You know, the place our species originated. 

To quote from a far better man than I:

"Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam."

I think that's why people are interested in Earth.

You quoted Sagan. You are now considered awesome.

Now I want Shepard to be able to deliver the "Pale Blue Dot" speech.

Modifié par Jzadek72, 08 mai 2011 - 02:17 .

[ExtremeOne]

Its real simple Bioware if put over aliens and their planets head of Earth. I will not buy ME 3 and I will unleash a ass chewing out on you worse than what the VS did on Shepard at Horizon

[crimzontearz]

lol the GI article already said the battle for earth is lost once it begins. The trailer at E3 sais several billion people are already dead and more hundreds of thousands are dying by the day

Face it Earth is lost in ME3

[PsychoWARD23]

I am so glad some of you guys aren't in important positions of power. "Oh, my hometown got destroyed so everyone else can suck it and get facerolled by the Reapers"

[Jzadek72]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Its real simple Bioware if put over aliens and their planets head of Earth. I will not buy ME 3 and I will unleash a ass chewing out on you worse than what the VS did on Shepard at Horizon

Sorry, but I'm not sure Bioware cares.