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[Nimrodell]

@Saphra Deden: Hypocritical is also having revived and spurned by entire galaxy renegade Shepard going out and fighting for it and still there you have it.

[Nimrodell]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...

@Saphra Deden: Hypocritical is also having revived and spurned by entire galaxy renegade Shepard going out and fighting for it and still there you have it.

Since when? He's fighting for survival as much as the people close to him, who don't spurn him. Also, there are still some who see him as a hero. Regardless, my Shepard never did any of this for the fame.

Tis just relativism how you perceive renegades and paragons and tis all ok, rationalizing your own way of thinking is something that majority does, either as paragon or renegade. Bottom line is, you don't like paragon way, play as renegade (as u prolly do) and give a benefit of a doubt to the opposite way of yours. Trust me, for each example of 'paragons are unlogical and not pragamtic and hypocritical'  there is also the same theme for renegades that keeps rolling since the times of ME1. Both sides have 'em. Beign paragon doesn't have to mean that one lives in fairy land and being renegade doesn't mean being pragmatic by default (or cooler badass guy). And I reacted now only 'cause of that childish notion on renegades that keeps stalking these forums for long time. And it is pretty much stale. After all, take a look at all definitions of renegade and those will show that there is hypocrisy in having renegade Shepard going under Cerberus or whatever flag for the bigger cause without having hidden agenda that is not just simple preservation (and even preservation is lame excuse for the true renegade 'cause it implies going through Omega 4 relay and the true renegade would not risk his/hers own neck for it - being pragmatic (as renegade population here claim for themselves) , renegade would send someone else to die). Even Jack as a better example of renegades asks something in return to actually do that. So, I would not be so exclusive in attacking the other way of thinking in your shoes, 'cause both renegade and paragon Shepards have pragmatic and not pragmatic sides and I think that BW finally has shown that in The Arrival.

In Garrus case, renegades will let him take that shot 'cause they don't believe in rule of law thus satisfying their own beliefs as well as Garrus' ones - and it is totally valid from their point of view, they would do the same and it actually kills two flies in the process, Garrus will stop whining finally. Paragons still hold onto beliefs (be those right or wrong), still perceive the law and yes, they still believe in appealing to the ones better nature and of course they will try to actually see the other side. And in this case pragmatism has nothing to do with it. Renegon or paragade may be pragmatic, perhaps, in this case - don't want Garrus to take that shot 'cause Bailey knows that they were the ones after Harkin and there can be problems with C-Sec later if Garrus actually executes Sidonis and too many credits were already spent with Bailey.

Tis game, not real life, and no, being pragmatic doesn't mean being renegade or paragon, it is what it is - just being pragmatic.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

aimlessgun wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Again... the reason you talk Garrus down isn't because killing is wrong, or even because killing for revenge is wrong. It's because going insane with rage is bad, and it seems like Garrus is headed in that direction.

Is this an exaggeration or do you really think Garrus was "going insane with rage". Seems like a stretch to me. Of course he was a little angry, but he never does anything that makes me concerned about his mental health. And everything seems pretty good after he kills Sidonis. As Shep says, "Clean and simple."

Yes it was hyperbole to make a point, heh, forgive me it was late, but thanks for the benefit of the doubt. Rather than insane with rage... addicted to righteous fury, maybe? 

It's the difference between ending up like Zaeed and ending up like Mordin, to me (and no, I don't think you're going to steer Garrus much more Paragon than Mordin.) Zaeed is fueled enough by anger that he'll let a group of innocents die to get what he wants, whereas Mordin won't.

And in my Renegade/Renegon playthroughs, depending on my personality, that behaviour is variously worrying/unworrying. If "ending up like Zaeed in a few years" isn't a bad thing in your opinion, then there's no reason to stop Garrus from killing Sidonis.

[Markinator_123]

Did anybody else just have a casual attitude towards killing Sidonis? My Shepard had no problems with it whatsoever. Basically, for some Shepards killing a traitor is serious business and something to be concerned about, but for mine it was Tuesday.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 07 mai 2011 - 02:52 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Markinator_123 wrote...

Did anybody else just have a casual attitude towards killing Sidonis? My Shepard had no problems with it whatsoever. Basically, for some Shepards killing a traitor is serious business and something to be concerned about, but for mine it was Tuesday.

Yeah, this is how Crow feels. "Oh look, a dude. Nice shot, bro. Let's go get drunk." 

Of course, that's her attitude toward pretty much any murder that can't be pinned on her, so perhaps she is not the best example of a moral compass.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 07 mai 2011 - 03:10 .

[Markinator_123]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...

Did anybody else just have a casual attitude towards killing Sidonis? My Shepard had no problems with it whatsoever. Basically, for some Shepards killing a traitor is serious business and something to be concerned about, but for mine it was Tuesday.

Yeah, this is how Crow feels. "Oh look, a dude. Nice shot, bro. Let's go get drunk." 

Of course, that's her attitude toward pretty much any murder that can't be pinned on her, so perhaps she is not the best example of a moral compass.

I have two rules I follow when I play.

1. Never kill someone without a reason.
2. You can always find a reason to kill someone.

[Anacronian Stryx]

I think the coolest thing about letting Sidonis live is that you can later hear a report from Emily Wong that he walked into C-sec and turned himself over.

[aimlessgun]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Yes it was hyperbole to make a point, heh, forgive me it was late, but thanks for the benefit of the doubt. Rather than insane with rage... addicted to righteous fury, maybe? 

It's the difference between ending up like Zaeed and ending up like Mordin, to me (and no, I don't think you're going to steer Garrus much more Paragon than Mordin.) Zaeed is fueled enough by anger that he'll let a group of innocents die to get what he wants, whereas Mordin won't.

And in my Renegade/Renegon playthroughs, depending on my personality, that behaviour is variously worrying/unworrying. If "ending up like Zaeed in a few years" isn't a bad thing in your opinion, then there's no reason to stop Garrus from killing Sidonis.

Addicted to righteous fury sound about right. Reminds me of the conversation after he kills Dr. Saleon, something along the lines of

G: "That felt good."
S: "Remember that feeling. That's how it's supposed to be."

I don't think that's Zaeed. I can't really think of a good comparison. The possible problem would if he gets so addicted to it that he lowers his standards of proof. I don't see Garrus letting ever letting a bunch of innocent people die to get 1 man (except when I tell him to ).

Modifié par aimlessgun, 07 mai 2011 - 04:32 .

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

His whole story about Dr. Saleon was Garrus wanting to put innocent people in jeopardy if it meant stopping Saleon's escape. He'd get a long great with Zaeed.

They're two sides of the same coin. The only real difference is that Zaeed doesn't think he IS the law.

[aimlessgun]

He had qualifiers though. Thought they were as good as dead, and also felt the ship could have been disabled without killing everyone on board.

In any case Zaeed's motives are very different. Garrus obviously doesn't kill for money. And Zaeed's non-money motives are akin to a big game hunter: looking for an impressive kill/mission to put on his trophy rack, regardless of the morality of the action.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 07 mai 2011 - 05:09 .

[Nimrodell]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...

Paragons still hold onto beliefs (be those right or wrong), still perceive the law and yes, they still believe in appealing to the ones better nature and of course they will try to actually see the other side.

They're also hypocrites and a little sociopathic at times.

This was good one, dear, do you know what sociopath actually means? Ah, you're a good one. Well, as you discovered, there are two paths how to play a renegade - smart one that actually waits and stupid one, that kills everything on his way - well, that one, dear, is a sociopath. Like the stupid renegade that just pushes that merc through that window instead of waiting and getting second renegade option to actually intimidate and get information. So, next time you use some term, make sure you actually know what it means... or maybe you mixed empathy with sociopathy, don't know. Ah, but as I said, you're a good one, at least you keep your ground and that has to count for something. Anyway, you keep killing Sidonis in each playthrough and have fun along the way, muppet.

[PsychoWARD23]

Garrus at least TRIES to do the "right thing" whereas Zaeed is just reckless on purpose.

[Destroy Raiden_]

I'm worried about how Garrus likes to stalk and kill people that get away from him...

Dr. Heart he took great pains to get him but he fled his solution: hunt him down
All the merch bosses on Omega he tried to kill them once they all escaped: hunt them down
Sidonis betrayed them and fled: hunt them down

I mean I thought we solved this in ME with Dr. Heart but then he comes out uber stalker on Omega. I think I'm getting him para again but what else is he going to stalk in ME3?

[AdmiralCheez]

mrsph wrote...

People may cheer Garrus on for beating the crap out of Harkin, but it was disturbingly Zaeed like.

People cheered him on for that?  Because I was like WHOA, DUDE! CALM THE F*CK DOWN BEFORE YOU HURT SOMEBODY!

Mind you, I giggled at the headbutt, but still, an angry Garrus is a scary Garrus.  Do not want.  Must paragon to avert Zaeedism.

[CroGamer002]

^Though seeing Shepard using Paragon punch on Garrus like with Zaeed would be very amusing.

[Bluko]

 Well Garrus' loyalty mission would be good, except like everything else you can solve the problem by both Paragon/Renegade means. I dunno to me that cheapens the experience.

I mean honestly to get Garrus' loyatly you should have to let him kill Sidonis. I think the game makes it a bit too easy in that you can solve everyone's problems and gain everyone loyalty. I mean should a Paragon player really be able to gain the loyalty of Renegade characters? Zaeed is another example. Why the hell would he even be loyal to Shepard after he lets Vido escape? But as usual Paragon Shepard makes a nice little speech and apparently that's it.

To me the game would have been a lot more interesting if you couldn't actually get everyone's loyalty by being purely Paragon or Renegade.

While I enjoy Garrus' loyalty mission, more so for actually kicking Harkin's ass, the fact that there are Blue Suns running around on the Citadel seems out of place. I mean standard Mercs I could see, but you'd think a bunch of Blue Suns wouldn't be real welcome by C-Sec on the Citadel.

Tali's loyalty mission is one of the better ones simply because in that case it does make sense that you could resolve it in a number of ways, which you can sort of. You even get different dialogue at the end depending on if you talked to the Admirals or not. That and we actually get see the Quarians as they live is a bonus.

Of course I found Samara's loyalty mission to be the most fun. You don't have to shoot up a gang of Mercs, and it actually requires a bit of thought to get through. Choose the wrong dialogue optionsand it's over. Also the private club has all sorts of fun little situations you can partake in, which certainly demands another playthrough. Also you get to make a pretty big choice at the end, so that's a plus as well.

As for the others they're all kind of "meh" and barely distinguishable from the recruitment missions. They're fun, but they really don't offer any replay value unless you wish to purposely fail. Well Legion's is pretty good too since the environment is very "alien" and it puts a big moral dilemma in front of you.

[PsychoWARD23]

Eh, I think it would have been interesting that if you chose to interfere and then he loses loyalty, BUT if he lives after the SM he gains more respect for Shepard and then he realizes what he was doing was "wrong" in that playthrough.

[AdmiralCheez]

Bluko wrote...

To me the game would have been a lot more interesting if you couldn't actually get everyone's loyalty by being purely Paragon or Renegade.

For sh*ts and giggles, what missions would only be resolvable as a paragon?

Thane's, maybe?  Kasumi is only loyal if you let her keep the Greybox?  Dunno, just thinking, if you had to split everyone into two categories...

Personally, I like that every conflict can be resolved by both sides.  That way, nobody's punished, and no one has an edge.  Granted, I think taking certain routes should be more difficult (for example, you needed a pretty high paragon ratio to convince Zaeed to remain loyal if you didn't go after Vido), but the fact that the game doesn't force an obviously "better" decision on you is what makes it worth playing both sides.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Well put. Zaeed is, in some ways, more professional than Garrus. For Garrus it is all a personal crusade. It's kind of disturbing if you put it your way.

Precisely why I paragon him.  As poorly written, hypocritical, and immersion-breaking as you claim it is, I still do it because Garrus has a little bit of crazy going on in that thick skull of his, and that little bit of crazy needs to be prevented from growing into a whole helluva lot of crazy.

In my paragon runs, anyway.  Hell, if I was in Garrus' position, Sidonis would get a lot more than a bullet in the head for what he did to my crew.  As a renegade-ish Shep, anyway.

The horrible part here is that I have no trouble seeing the validity of both sides.  Looks like I've got a little bit of crazy up there as well.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 08 mai 2011 - 12:01 .