462 réponses à ce sujet

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I've discussed the mercs before. (And they're not people... they're mercs. That was a joke.) If I walk into a room full of violent mercs who open fire on me, I'm killing them. What I'm "on my way to do" is irrelevant -

Which is why I said your Shepard had sociopathic tendencies. Something that highlights here hypocrisy.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

And if you'd read my post above, you'd see that I didn't intend on "betraying" Garrus the entire time. She went there with the idea of helping her friend, however she could.

Gunning down a lot of people in the process. It's all about your friend though. Toss "selfish" into the list of descriptions for your Shepard.

In this case, you're saying everyone who has ever fired a shot in self-defense is a selfish sociopath. Everyone in the military, every cop. And my Shepard (along with many Paragon Shepards) is a Spacecop. At worst, she's a Spacecop in the third act of the movie, when she's put her gun and badge on the table and gone after the bad guy on her own terms. At best, she's a Spacecop acting slightly out of her jurisdiction. (Do do doot do do do doot) 

If I were an ancient Roman (Hey, this is still Mass Effect Related! The Turians are based on ancient Rome, among other things), my patron Goddess would be Pallas, goddess of wisdom and righteous defense. She doesn't have a helmet and shield because she's going to retreat from battle, once it has been joined. Also, I invite you to try to retreat once you're in there. I'll wait. What? You can't find a door that will open? Weird! Guess you're stuck.

Also, out of curiosity, what is your definition of sociopath? There's both a technical definition and several vernacular ones, so I'm trying to figure out which one you're using.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 09 mai 2011 - 06:03 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It makes it harder for him to escape, to make it easier for C-Sec to catch him.

All he had to do was hobble to a med station, then get into a cab.  Not very effective, really.

Besides, we're going to murder a man. May as well maim one along the way. You've already sanctioned that murder by bringing it this far. Too late to get cold feet.

There's a difference between a clean kill and leaving someone huddled up in a corner with a hole in their leg.

[Leonia]

Actually, Pallas Athene does have a helmet and armour when she springs forth from Zeus' head. But that's just a nit-pick (she's also my favourite Greek/Roman goddess). She's still the goddess of wisdom and defensive warfare.

Maiming Harkin is unnecessary, once you have the information you need, his role is over. Kill him, leave him alone, maim him.. ultimately none of those will affect Garrus' resolve to shoot Sidonis.

Modifié par leonia42, 09 mai 2011 - 06:04 .

[Ottemis]

leonia42 wrote...
Those are all definitely red flags but ultimately, for my Shepard, regardless of his level of sanity.. this is his choice to make and she will not take that right of choice away from him. Even if it sends him down a dark path that she understands all to well. At least if he is walking down that road, she will have his trust and can maybe try to help him walk away from it later.

Seeing the background Shep has with Garrus, even though on average I would agree with you and people do need to "fall on their face by themselves in order to grow and learn" ofc that's to a certain extend, and when they cross certain moral boundaries, it's not wrong the intervene and protect their (possible) mental cohesion.
In the end it's not in his nor your personal benefit if he ends up incarcerated or shooting himself in the face through guilt/doubt/moral dilemma.

Furthermore I build this statement on the assumption of Garrus' character. If he didn't like and respect you, he wouldn't be following you. He looks up to Shep, in a sense you're a bit the idol and rolemodel. Your morals aren't automaticly his, but he atleast respects them (in theory) so intervention is not really going too far or doing too much in my book.

Modifié par Ottemis, 09 mai 2011 - 06:14 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

leonia42 wrote...

Actually, Pallas Athene does have a helmet and armour when she springs forth from Zeus' head. But that's just a nit-pick (she's also my favourite Greek/Roman goddess). She's still the goddess of wisdom and defensive warfare.

True, but I'd argue she was born with it because she was born to kick butt and invent the olive tree. (and she's all out of... olive trees?)

Also, I feel that your rationale for letting Garrus make his own decision is perfectly justified, even from a paragon perspective. In that case it's more of a personality thing... how willing are you to meddle in people's lives? I'm pretty darn willing to meddle (and so is Jane), but I don't see it as an unambiguous good. On other Shepards I let him die about half the time, too.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 09 mai 2011 - 06:10 .

[AdmiralCheez]

leonia42 wrote...

Those are all definitely red flags but ultimately, for my Shepard, regardless of his level of sanity.. this is his choice to make and she will not take that right of choice away from him. Even if it sends him down a dark path that she understands all to well. At least if he is walking down that road, she will have his trust and can maybe try to help him walk away from it later.

Indeed.  Hence, I let Sidonis bite it in half my runs, even the sickeningly paragon ones.  Every once in a while, though, I get a Shep who's willing to lose Garrus' respect if it means the aforementioned dark path can be avoided.

Really, no matter which way I go on this one, I hesitate.  On one hand, you're helping a friend who needs it badly.  On the other... you're helping a friend who needs it badly.  Damn you, grey areas...

[Leonia]

I do enjoy seeing how everyone approaches this mission, I can appreciate different interpretations (even folks who paragoned it). My canon Shepard doesn't even do what I would have personally done.. I would never, ever have let Garrus shoot Sidonis regardless of the information I had. But that's the fun in role-playing, isn't it? There's no "right" way to do it, given the variety in Shepard's background and her relationship with Garrus (how you handled things in ME1, for example), there are many different ways to rationalise a Shepard's approach to this mission.

Calling anyone stupid or a dolt for their choice though doesn't seem to take into account that not everyone role-plays the same. And that's not directed at anyone in particular, I just like to read these sorts of things without the unnecessary insults being thrown around.

[Leonia]

Ottemis wrote...

leonia42 wrote...
Those are all definitely red flags but ultimately, for my Shepard, regardless of his level of sanity.. this is his choice to make and she will not take that right of choice away from him. Even if it sends him down a dark path that she understands all to well. At least if he is walking down that road, she will have his trust and can maybe try to help him walk away from it later.

Seeing the background Shep has with Garrus, even though on average I would agree with you and people do need to "fall on their face by themselves in order to grow and learn" ofc that's to a certain extend, and when they cross certain moral boundaries, it's not wrong the intervene and protect their (possible) mental cohesion.
In the end it's not in his nor your personal benefit if he ends up incarcerated or shooting himself in the face through guilt/doubt/moral dilemma.

Furthermore I build this statement on the assumption of Garrus' character. If he didn't like and respect you, he wouldn't be following you. Your morals aren't automaticly his, but he atleast respects them (in theory) so intervention is not really going too far or doing too much in my book.

My Shepard would love, love to believe that. But she's had a hard life, she's an Earthborn/Sole-Survivor and she knows that if anyone had ever tried to take a revenge killing away from her, especially the one person she respected most, she might have lost her ability to have faith and respect for anyone ever again. She's really trying to look at it both from Garrus' point-of-view and from her own. Revenge is never justice but closure.. closure is important. Especially if you're about to go on a Suicide Mission.

You can't have Garrus sitting on the Normandy going "What if I had taken the shot?" and thinking of what could have been. Well, you could, but that would plague him more than just letting him have a hand in his own fate/destiny. Shepard is nothing but a shepherd, a guide, a role-model, a teacher. She wants to be more than that and maybe if she can get closer to Garrus he will one day understand the error of his past decisions and be able to move on from them with a clearer head, with Shepard at his side. Or maybe he'll be overcome with regret. Either way, Shepard's right there beside him to help him through it.

If I was playing a Shepard that wasn't going to romance him, I'd most definitely approach it differently.

[Someone With Mass]

Why are you trying to defend mooks, which only purpose in life is to be killed for the sake of gameplay?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

In this case, you're saying everyone who has ever fired a shot in self-defense is a selfish sociopath.

It wasn't self defense, you attacked them. The first three mercs outside, sure, they fired on you. However after that you proceeded into their base.

I haven't played that mission in a while... is there a way out once you've started shooting mercs? 

And you haven't answered my question: what is your definition of a sociopath? Or my implied question: what makes Shepard killing mercs on the Citadel any different from Axel Foley killing drug dealers in Beverly Hills?

[Leonia]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Why are you trying to defend mooks, which only purpose in life is to be killed for the sake of gameplay?

Think of the mooks' feelings!!

/sarcasm off

[Golden Owl]

leonia42 wrote...

Actually, Pallas Athene does have a helmet and armour when she springs forth from Zeus' head. But that's just a nit-pick (she's also my favourite Greek/Roman goddess). She's still the goddess of wisdom and defensive warfare.

Off topic for a brief moment Leonia....Have you heard of Baubo? (lesser known greek goddess)...If your female, you may find her quite interesting if you have an interest in Greek mythology.

[Ottemis]

leonia42 wrote...
My Shepard would love, love to believe that. But she's had a hard life, she's an Earthborn/Sole-Survivor and she knows that if anyone had ever tried to take a revenge killing away from her, especially the one person she respected most, she might have lost her ability to have faith and respect for anyone ever again. She's really trying to look at it both from Garrus' point-of-view and from her own. Revenge is never justice but closure.. closure is important. Especially if you're about to go on a Suicide Mission. 

You can't have Garrus sitting on the Normandy going "What if I had taken the shot?" and thinking of what could have been. Well, you could, but that would plague him more than just letting him have a hand in his own fate/destiny. Shepard is nothing but a shepherd, a guide, a role-model, a teacher. She wants to be more than that and maybe if she can get closer to Garrus he will one day understand the error of his past decisions and be able to move on from them with a clearer head, with Shepard at his side. Or maybe he'll be overcome with regret. Either way, Shepard's right there beside him to help him through it.

If I was playing a Shepard that wasn't going to romance him, I'd most definitely approach it differently.

Sound enough argumentation =)

Though 'closure' is pretty much an illusion with emotion involved.
Especially because all the info we get is an emotional and angry Garrus going "growl, he betrayed me and all my friends got shot, now he needs to die" And the proof is Sidonis fleeing the station.
We don't really know all that much, and with Garrus' character as it is, imagine him finding out later he shot a guy who was manipulated into something terrible; would not mean closure at all. I reckon it would possibly cause bigger, at the very least all new, issues.

In my mind 'real' closure would be having a heart to heart with Sidonis and trying to get the question asked of WHY he did what he did. If Garrus would still want to shoot his ass afterwards, fair enough. Atleast it would take the risk away of it exploding exponentially in his face later on. That is if his decision wasen't so tainted by his blind hate.
You learn about Sidonis' reasons some when you pick the paragon option and stand in LOS. Imho the way that unravels says tons about his character underneath the anger and the lust for blind revenge. It's a good unwrap.

Come to think of it, Garrus learning of Sidonis' reasons might also make the killing a "pity kill", which either works for your Shep, or completely NOT, under the header of getting revenge, letting him live would be arguably worse.

Well, it's atleast right to say there's so many angles to the decision there's no real right or wrong, as Garrus so amply puts it: we're not particularly good with grey. 

So yeah, to each his own =)

Modifié par Ottemis, 09 mai 2011 - 06:51 .

[Leonia]

@Golden Owl: Name doesn't sound familiar, but I could look it up.

To be on-topic: I'm still trying to rationalise why I let my Shepard handle this mission the way she does. It's like I'm having a disagreement with my own creation.

This is how things go down in her mind:

"What would I do if someone betrayed me? I'd kill them! Is it the right thing to do? No. Would it give me closure or satisfaction? Briefly."

Then there is this conversation in the car:

"What would you do if someone betrayed you, Shepard?"
"I don't know but I wouldn't let it change who I am."
"I'm not you."

Which is consistent for my Shepard and at that moment she is going: "Yeah, you're not me, you're going to kill that guy..even though I would want to do the same.. even though you probably know it's the wrong thing to do. No, don't do that, it's not worth it for a brief period of closure/satisfaction. I should stop you but because I love you and trust you and I want you to be able to trust and love me too. No, I shouldn't intervene for the same reason. Damn it. This is going to come back to bite me in the ass some day."

After the shooting:

"This is the end of this, right?" while mentally Shepard is thinking: "please say yes, we are NOT going through this again"
"Yeah, let's get out of here, I'm over it."

Romance scene just before the Suicide Mission:

"I've seen so much go wrong. My work at C-Sec, Sidonis..I just want something to right, just this once."

Now Shepard is going: "**** he's starting to feel regret. But at least he won't have to deal with it alone. If we live through this mission, we need to go on a vacation afterwards. Clear both of our heads."

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

And you haven't answered my question: what is your definition of a sociopath?

I'll go with the dictionary definition.

Ok, that would be someone affected by antisocial personality disorder, or psychopathy. (I'm going by the Merriam Webster online dictionary, because my American
Heritage is in a box somewhere and they don't have it online anymore,
like JERKS.) Now the question is, do you go by the DSM-IV or instead favor using the PCL-R... definitions of antisocial personality disorder, sociopathy and psychopathy? They're a bit different. The former believes that ASPD, pscyhopathy, and sociopathy are all synonymous, while the latter distinguishes between them.

This is important. Using one of these rubrics, only Renegade Shepards are sociopaths. Using the other one, I'd say about 80% of video game characters are, including almost every possible incarnation of Shepard. So which one are we going by?

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 09 mai 2011 - 06:49 .

[Zall]

On my first playthrough of ME2, with no prior knowledge of the first game, Garrus LM Paragon ending certainly made no sense to me. Garrus was collected, professional and determined to kill the traitor who got his whole team killed. Why should I stop him? And why the hell does Shepard worry so damn much?

Without ME1 I couldn't see how much Garrus had changed. He used to believe that he can change the world if one would let him. Idealistic, compassionate and surprisingly open to Shepard's criticism or advice. Shepard has shaped his world-view and therefore still holds some degree of responsibility of who Garrus becomes.

The bitter, vengeful Garrus version in ME2 is unsettling to see. Killing Sidonis is not as much about justice as about personal issues. When Sidonis talks about his guilt-driven nightmares, we can see Garrus looking up startled and I suppose he has the same kind of nightmares. Waking up at night, seeing their repreachful faces and knowing, that he failed his friends and ultimately sentenced them to death. Garrus wants to shift the blame to Sidonis (who is indeed the guilty one here), but problem is, he's losing grip of everything else.

He is so fixated on his goal, that he cares less and less about the means he uses. His black-and-white way of thinking is going to stick if one lets him kill Sidonis and I don't want Garrus to become the next Zaeed. In this LM, it's not about executing a traitor and a coward, but about helping a friend. Convincing Garrus of letting Sidonis go is in my opinion the best way to do so.

[Golden Owl]

leonia42 wrote...

@Golden Owl: Name doesn't sound familiar, but I could look it up.

Patriachial system tried to bury her, but if you look, you can find her...easy place to start is Demeter losing her daughter stories.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

This is important. Using one of these rubrics, only Renegade Shepards are sociopaths. Using the other one, I'd say about 80% of video game characters are, including almost every possible incarnation of Shepard. So which one are we going by?

Use whichever definition you want. Shepard may not be a sociopath as a whole, but individual actions or sentiments can be construed as sociopathic.

Are we really going to turn this debate into an argument over the definition of a word?

You latching onto this tells me you are out of rebuttals.

You didn't address any of my rebuttals, and kept on using that word, and I do not think it means what you think it means. If we'll agree that sociopath is no longer a useful word in this topic (as are pscyhopath and ASPD), I'm very willing to never bring it up again if you will also never bring it up again, and that will help us move forward.

Two of my as-yet-unadressed dozen or so rebuttals in this thread: 

I haven't played that mission in a while... is there a way out once you've started shooting mercs? You keep mentioning the ability to decide to stop, and I'm curious as to what point in the mission you are referring to?

What makes Shepard killing mercs on the Citadel any different from Axel Foley killing drug dealers in Beverly Hills?

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 09 mai 2011 - 06:55 .

[Leonia]

Ottemis wrote...

Sound enough argumentation =)

Though 'closure' is pretty much an illusion with emotion involved.
Especially because all the info we get is an emotional and angry Garrus going "growl, he betrayed me and all my friends got shot, now he needs to die" And the proof is Sidonis fleeing the station.
We don't really know all that much, and with Garrus' character as it is, imagine him finding out later he shot a guy who was manipulated into something terrible; would not mean closure at all. I reckon it would possibly cause bigger, at the very least all new, issues.

In my mind 'real' closure would be having a heart to heart with Sidonis and trying to get the question asked of WHY he did what he did. If Garrus would still want to shoot his ass afterwards, fair enough. Atleast it would take the risk away of it exploding exponentially in his face later on. That is if his decision wasen't so tainted by his blind hate.
You learn about Sidonis' reasons some when you pick the paragon option and stand in LOS. Imho the way that unravels says tons about his character underneath the anger and the lust for blind revenge. It's a good unwrap.

Come to think of it, Garrus learning of Sidonis' reasons might also make the killing a "pity kill", which either works for your Shep, or completely NOT, under the header of getting revenge, letting him live would be arguably worse.

Well, it's atleast right to say there's so many angles to the decision there's no real right or wrong, as Garrus so amply puts it: we're not particularly good with grey. 

So yeah, to each his own =)

This is a very logical approach that a Shepard who wasn't thinking about her feelings for Garrus probably would have followed.

[Nashiktal]

CGG, you have far more patience than I.

[Leonia]

I hate to be an arse but.. this back and forth between CGG and Saphra is getting somewhat off-topic..