462 réponses à ce sujet

[Lunatic LK47]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

How can you say Saren was one-dimensional (a physical impossibility: what you mean is two dimensional)? You start the game thinking he is doing it because he hates humans. Later you find out that the real reason is to save the Galaxy, including Humans. In Revelation, he's ruthless and tyranical but also cold and logical. His character is actually pretty deep.

Uh, I meant one-dimensional as in there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING redeeming about the guy. He still would have committed genocide on humanity if he maintained his sanity.

[DeadLetterBox]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

DeadLetterBox wrote...

I've been pawing through this thread, and I've realized that Saphra and reactions to Saphra have dominated at least five pages (if not more). This is a person who discards logical debate for ad hominem attacks whenever the argument dies down. This person has a link to a post that claims it is impossible to win against the Reapers no matter what (Saphra wrote it.) This person is obviously either a philosophy major or desperately seeking attention, probably both. Certainly Saprha enjoys starting trouble. Seriously, play a Facebook game or something. Get a hobby.

Please stop feeding the agitator. I want to read about Garrus.

I find this post amusing for the irony.

+5!

Aw, geez, I just can't help myself.  I'm just a hypocritical paragon. 

[Seboist]

DeadLetterBox wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

DeadLetterBox wrote...

I've been pawing through this thread, and I've realized that Saphra and reactions to Saphra have dominated at least five pages (if not more). This is a person who discards logical debate for ad hominem attacks whenever the argument dies down. This person has a link to a post that claims it is impossible to win against the Reapers no matter what (Saphra wrote it.) This person is obviously either a philosophy major or desperately seeking attention, probably both. Certainly Saprha enjoys starting trouble. Seriously, play a Facebook game or something. Get a hobby.

Please stop feeding the agitator. I want to read about Garrus.

I find this post amusing for the irony.

+5!

Aw, geez, I just can't help myself.  I'm just a hypocritical paragon. 

Saphra is a good man who makes good points. Need to show some respect son.

[Splinter Cell 108]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

I didn't allow Garrus to kill Sidonis since the first time I did it. But I only found out because someone told me he'd be loyal to you even if you didn't allow him to do it. I didn't allow him to do it because it was reminding me of Saren way too much. Allowing Garrus to do that would have probably made him just like Saren. Especially since they have one thing in common, Saren lost his brother and then he became ruthless. Garrus lost his team and can become ruthless as a result.

Except Saren was a one-dimensional genocidal jack-ass. Garrus doesn't commit genocide.

No he wasn't, he said he wanted to bring humanity under control. That doesn't mean that he will commit genocied. He's also one of the greatest characters in Mass Effect. I'm sure wasn't always a ruthless bastard, his brother's death made him the way he was, he just couldn't cope with it and ended up blaming humanity for it. 

[DPSSOC]

I have mixed feelings about this mission. On the one hand it actually has a lot of potential to make Garrus interesting in ME3 (not that he isn't already). If you follow the same path in both ME1 and ME2 you get standard Para/Ren Garrus. If you go Renegade in ME1 and Paragon in ME2 you get a Renegade Garrus who's tempered somewhat, death is often the best answer but not the only answer, and if you go Paragon in ME1 and Renegade in ME2 you get the worst kind of monster; somebody who always goes by the book unless it's personal.

On the other hand this mission, in fact Garrus entirely, seems like a reset. A way to allow new players the chance to make the same choice we got in ME1 and let ME1 players reconsider their decision in ME2. More specifically let the Renegade ME1 players reconsider their decision, because the game kinda beats you over the head with, "See he followed your advice and look where it got him, crazy Space Two Face. Now you stand in front of that bullet (despite the fact the person your blocking is taller than you and your friend is firing from an elevated position) and tell him to be a good boy." While Paragon players get more of a "He didn't listen to me and look where it got him." kind of vibe. That could just be me though.

So it's either a wonderful moment in character development or a reset in which case I'm going to have to redo my canon playthrough.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 10 mai 2011 - 03:53 .

[Golden Owl]

Nyoka wrote...

Stating openly that I play Renegade is becoming more and more embarrassing thanks to threads like this one.

Same said for Paragons...you get eaten alive byt those who don't like your game choice either way.

[DeadLetterBox]

Saphra is a good man who makes good points. Need to show some respect son.

I'm definitely not your son.  Not your daughter either.  In fact, I'm quite possibly older than you, pup.  And while Saphra's points may be good, I do not respect the way in which they have been made.  I see no reason to pretend about this.  If we want to keep on it, though, maybe we ought to start a new thread? 

Modifié par DeadLetterBox, 10 mai 2011 - 04:11 .

[Golden Owl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Uh, I meant one-dimensional as in there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING redeeming about the guy. He still would have committed genocide on humanity if he maintained his sanity.

I'm sure many turians would disagree with you.

For once, I actually agree with Saphra...Have a good listen and think about what Saren says to Shep, try to see the Reaper issue from Sarens perspective and I also get the feeling he actually starts respecting Shep (a Human) as the game goes along...I kinda think he and Shep could have built a lot of bridges together if Saren had survived...Personally I would have loved to have Saren as a squaddie on the Normandy in ME2.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 10 mai 2011 - 04:14 .

[Golden Owl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I was referring to his anti-human beliefs.

Oh well...a moments confusion as to your intentions then.

[DeadLetterBox]

Golden Owl wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I was referring to his anti-human beliefs.

Oh well...a moments confusion as to your intentions then.

For what it's worth, Golden Owl, I agree.  I don't think Saren was completely evil.  He had just been twisted by bitterness and hate.  Sort of like the Illusive Man.  I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder what sort of person Garrus would become if he didn't confront his hatred for Sidonis.

[Lunatic LK47]

Golden Owl wrote...

For once, I actually agree with Saphra...Have a good listen and think about what Saren says to Shep, try to see the Reaper issue from Sarens perspective and I also get the feeling he actually starts respecting Shep (a Human) as the game goes along...I kinda think he and Shep could have built a lot of bridges together if Saren had survived...Personally I would have loved to have Saren as a squaddie on the Normandy in ME2.

Uh, allying with Saren is like saying Osama Bin Laden committed 9/11 just "for the greater good." He hated humanity pre-Sovereign, and there was nothing redeeming AT ALL. What's next, Hitler committing the Holocaust was done to "save the world?"

[DeadLetterBox]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

For once, I actually agree with Saphra...Have a good listen and think about what Saren says to Shep, try to see the Reaper issue from Sarens perspective and I also get the feeling he actually starts respecting Shep (a Human) as the game goes along...I kinda think he and Shep could have built a lot of bridges together if Saren had survived...Personally I would have loved to have Saren as a squaddie on the Normandy in ME2.

Uh, allying with Saren is like saying Osama Bin Laden committed 9/11 just "for the greater good." He hated humanity pre-Sovereign, and there was nothing redeeming AT ALL. What's next, Hitler committing the Holocaust was done to "save the world?"

It's quite possible Hitler thought so.  Evil doesn't see itself in the mirror.  I think squadmate might be going too far, I just don't think he realized how far he'd fallen.

[BluSoldier]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

For once, I actually agree with Saphra...Have a good listen and think about what Saren says to Shep, try to see the Reaper issue from Sarens perspective and I also get the feeling he actually starts respecting Shep (a Human) as the game goes along...I kinda think he and Shep could have built a lot of bridges together if Saren had survived...Personally I would have loved to have Saren as a squaddie on the Normandy in ME2.

Uh, allying with Saren is like saying Osama Bin Laden committed 9/11 just "for the greater good." He hated humanity pre-Sovereign, and there was nothing redeeming AT ALL. What's next, Hitler committing the Holocaust was done to "save the world?"

That is EXCTLY what Hitler was thinking.  Very few peole who commint attrocities actually believe that they are wrong.  Most genocidal people think they are doing the right thing.  That does not make them evil, it just makes them wrong.

Modifié par BluSoldier, 10 mai 2011 - 04:34 .

[DeadLetterBox]

BluSoldier wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

For once, I actually agree with Saphra...Have a good listen and think about what Saren says to Shep, try to see the Reaper issue from Sarens perspective and I also get the feeling he actually starts respecting Shep (a Human) as the game goes along...I kinda think he and Shep could have built a lot of bridges together if Saren had survived...Personally I would have loved to have Saren as a squaddie on the Normandy in ME2.

Uh, allying with Saren is like saying Osama Bin Laden committed 9/11 just "for the greater good." He hated humanity pre-Sovereign, and there was nothing redeeming AT ALL. What's next, Hitler committing the Holocaust was done to "save the world?"

That is EXCTLY what Hitler was thinking.  Very few peole who commint attrocities actually believe that they are wrong.  Most genocidal people think they are doing the right thing.  That does not make them evil, it just makes them wrong.

I might disagree with that not making them evil.  I think you can only commit so many evil acts before you've kind of earned the label.  That said, it's worth noting that Adolf Hitler was once an art student.  He may also have been nice to his mistress, for all I know, and he was certainly good to his allies before the paranoia got him.  Expecting someone who commits evil acts to be completely and thoroughly evil isn't a good idea.  It usually isn't true and it might make you blind to the true nature of the acts being committed.

[Golden Owl]

DeadLetterBox wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I was referring to his anti-human beliefs.

Oh well...a moments confusion as to your intentions then.

For what it's worth, Golden Owl, I agree.  I don't think Saren was completely evil.  He had just been twisted by bitterness and hate.  Sort of like the Illusive Man.  I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder what sort of person Garrus would become if he didn't confront his hatred for Sidonis.

Knowing Garrus, he would have stewed...he is hot blooded and passionate, his the kinda guy who needs to face his demons to come to terms with them...yep, I think we would have lost him to a much darker Garrus if his issue with Sidonis wasn't resolved...Am personally a huge fan of Garrus and like his fiery nature, he is a strong character and I personally disagree with the judgements that he is one dimensional given the fact that he hunts Saleon in ME1 and Sidonis in ME2...I kinda feel that hot headedness and revenge orientated blends perfectly with who Garrus is, yep, I paragoned his Saleon experience in ME1...but would have felt he was out of character in ME2 if he had done a complete flip side two years after a few short conversations with Shep about revengeful drives and became a forgiving saint...Garrus acts before he thinks, thats who he is, his emotions drive him, convining him to control his hot headedness and think before he acts will I think always be a challenge with Garrus...his a wonderful character....The hardest choice for me in ME2 was whether to allow Garrus to take the shot or not, the renegade in me was saying "But his Garrus and his hurting" and the paragon in me was saying "But his Garrus and his hurting"...does that make sense?

[BluSoldier]

DeadLetterBox wrote...

BluSoldier wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

For once, I actually agree with Saphra...Have a good listen and think about what Saren says to Shep, try to see the Reaper issue from Sarens perspective and I also get the feeling he actually starts respecting Shep (a Human) as the game goes along...I kinda think he and Shep could have built a lot of bridges together if Saren had survived...Personally I would have loved to have Saren as a squaddie on the Normandy in ME2.

Uh, allying with Saren is like saying Osama Bin Laden committed 9/11 just "for the greater good." He hated humanity pre-Sovereign, and there was nothing redeeming AT ALL. What's next, Hitler committing the Holocaust was done to "save the world?"

That is EXCTLY what Hitler was thinking.  Very few peole who commint attrocities actually believe that they are wrong.  Most genocidal people think they are doing the right thing.  That does not make them evil, it just makes them wrong.

I might disagree with that not making them evil.  I think you can only commit so many evil acts before you've kind of earned the label.  That said, it's worth noting that Adolf Hitler was once an art student.  He may also have been nice to his mistress, for all I know, and he was certainly good to his allies before the paranoia got him.  Expecting someone who commits evil acts to be completely and thoroughly evil isn't a good idea.  It usually isn't true and it might make you blind to the true nature of the acts being committed.

I think I sort of agree with you, but I strongly beleive that one should be judged not by his actions, but by the reasoning behind them.  

If a terrorist is killing thosands of innocents and thinks he is rightous for doing so, it does not make him evil.  Even so, he is a threat to mankind and must be stopped.  

People should not be judged by thier actions, but by thier reasoning.
People SHOULD be acted against based on thier actions, but not judged.

[DeadLetterBox]

Golden Owl wrote...

Knowing Garrus, he would have stewed...he is hot blooded and passionate, his the kinda guy who needs to face his demons to come to terms with them...yep, I think we would have lost him to a much darker Garrus if his issue with Sidonis wasn't resolved...Am personally a huge fan of Garrus and like his fiery nature, he is a strong character and I personally disagree with the judgements that he is one dimensional given the fact that he hunts Saleon in ME1 and Sidonis in ME2...I kinda feel that hot headedness and revenge orientated blends perfectly with who Garrus is, yep, I paragoned his Saleon experience in ME1...but would have felt he was out of character in ME2 if he had done a complete flip side two years after a few short conversations with Shep about revengeful drives and became a forgiving saint...Garrus acts before he thinks, thats who he is, his emotions drive him, convining him to control his hot headedness and think before he acts will I think always be a challenge with Garrus...his a wonderful character....The hardest choice for me in ME2 was whether to allow Garrus to take the shot or not, the renegade in me was saying "But his Garrus and his hurting" and the paragon in me was saying "But his Garrus and his hurting"...does that make sense?

It makes sense to me.  Although, to be perfectly fair, I didn't really care about Sidonis.  The renegade in me was like, wow, this guy really deserves it.  Then I met up with him and the paragon in me was thinking Sidonis would suffer more alive than dead anyway.  I just settled on the idea that Sidonis was once a member of Garrus' team, and therefore Garrus might really regret taking the guy down. 

That, and like I said before, I find the paragon option to be more fun to play.  Walking in front of Garrus' sights like that and relying on our friendship to keep him from putting a bullet in my brain while I make Garrus think about what he wants to do is just kind of cool.

[Golden Owl]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

For once, I actually agree with Saphra...Have a good listen and think about what Saren says to Shep, try to see the Reaper issue from Sarens perspective and I also get the feeling he actually starts respecting Shep (a Human) as the game goes along...I kinda think he and Shep could have built a lot of bridges together if Saren had survived...Personally I would have loved to have Saren as a squaddie on the Normandy in ME2.

Uh, allying with Saren is like saying Osama Bin Laden committed 9/11 just "for the greater good." He hated humanity pre-Sovereign, and there was nothing redeeming AT ALL. What's next, Hitler committing the Holocaust was done to "save the world?"

Not a good place to go using Bin Laden or Hitler...would prefer to stay in the ME universe please...I'm just saying have a close listen to Saren, especially for Virmire on, he is not so easy to stick a pre defined pigeaon hole.

[AlanC9]

BluSoldier wrote...

If a terrorist is killing thosands of innocents and thinks he is rightous for doing so, it does not make him evil.  Even so, he is a threat to mankind and must be stopped.  

People should not be judged by thier actions, but by thier reasoning.
People SHOULD be acted against based on thier actions, but not judged.

So what good is the "evil" concept? Is anyone "evil?" And since calling someone "evil" doesn't seem to mean that we treat them differently, who cares if someone's "evil" or not?

[DeadLetterBox]

BluSoldier wrote...

I think I sort of agree with you, but I strongly beleive that one should be judged not by his actions, but by the reasoning behind them.  

If a terrorist is killing thosands of innocents and thinks he is rightous for doing so, it does not make him evil.  Even so, he is a threat to mankind and must be stopped.  

People should not be judged by thier actions, but by thier reasoning.
People SHOULD be acted against based on thier actions, but not judged.

You can't know a person's reasoning.  Half the time that reasoning changes in a person's mind as they get further away from the events and they don't even realize it.  Your inner monologue doesn't have a fact checker.  I think a combination approach is best.  Judge people by their actions, but take their reasoning into account when you decide how mad you're gonna get. 

[Golden Owl]

DeadLetterBox wrote...

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

For once, I actually agree with Saphra...Have a good listen and think about what Saren says to Shep, try to see the Reaper issue from Sarens perspective and I also get the feeling he actually starts respecting Shep (a Human) as the game goes along...I kinda think he and Shep could have built a lot of bridges together if Saren had survived...Personally I would have loved to have Saren as a squaddie on the Normandy in ME2.

Uh, allying with Saren is like saying Osama Bin Laden committed 9/11 just "for the greater good." He hated humanity pre-Sovereign, and there was nothing redeeming AT ALL. What's next, Hitler committing the Holocaust was done to "save the world?"

It's quite possible Hitler thought so.  Evil doesn't see itself in the mirror.  I think squadmate might be going too far, I just don't think he realized how far he'd fallen.

That was the point to me...Saren hadn't realized how far he had fallen, but I think he realizes it in the end...thats why I think if he had survived he would have made one hell of an ally...sometimes those who have seen the darkest shine the greatest light...etc..kinda thing.

[Golden Owl]

DeadLetterBox wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Knowing Garrus, he would have stewed...he is hot blooded and passionate, his the kinda guy who needs to face his demons to come to terms with them...yep, I think we would have lost him to a much darker Garrus if his issue with Sidonis wasn't resolved...Am personally a huge fan of Garrus and like his fiery nature, he is a strong character and I personally disagree with the judgements that he is one dimensional given the fact that he hunts Saleon in ME1 and Sidonis in ME2...I kinda feel that hot headedness and revenge orientated blends perfectly with who Garrus is, yep, I paragoned his Saleon experience in ME1...but would have felt he was out of character in ME2 if he had done a complete flip side two years after a few short conversations with Shep about revengeful drives and became a forgiving saint...Garrus acts before he thinks, thats who he is, his emotions drive him, convining him to control his hot headedness and think before he acts will I think always be a challenge with Garrus...his a wonderful character....The hardest choice for me in ME2 was whether to allow Garrus to take the shot or not, the renegade in me was saying "But his Garrus and his hurting" and the paragon in me was saying "But his Garrus and his hurting"...does that make sense?

It makes sense to me.  Although, to be perfectly fair, I didn't really care about Sidonis.  The renegade in me was like, wow, this guy really deserves it.  Then I met up with him and the paragon in me was thinking Sidonis would suffer more alive than dead anyway.  I just settled on the idea that Sidonis was once a member of Garrus' team, and therefore Garrus might really regret taking the guy down. 

That, and like I said before, I find the paragon option to be more fun to play.  Walking in front of Garrus' sights like that and relying on our friendship to keep him from putting a bullet in my brain while I make Garrus think about what he wants to do is just kind of cool.

Sidonis is most certainly the worst kind of coward, that he would sacrifice so many others because he is scared...doesn't cut it with me...there are times we need to swallow our fears and take the plunge....my choice to save Sidonis was for Garrus not Sidonis.

Yep, me too, I loved being in Garrus's scope and placing so much trust in him...Garrus is very cool :-)