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"Fans want traditional style gameplay"


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#76
lrrose

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In Exile wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
You were told specifically when you got the quest that the corpse gall was to help the Templars learn how to fight undead better.  It may seem like a minor change to you, but such things help the immersion process.

-Polaris


If insignificant dialogue like that changes your gaming experience, more power to you. You get a random blurb in the journal for the items you find, so why isn't that enough? Joe lost his hat and wants it back because his head gets cold is the same kind of fetch quest  (with the same sort of justification) as the Chantry wanting undead galls.

Is the difference perceived importance?


I couldn't have said it better myself.

(The following is MY personal opinion and is separate from the above point. I really shouldn't have to include this note, but this is the internet)

My problem with Origins' side quests was that they were almost entirely "go to this place and kill this enemy" quests or fetch quests. DA2 has secondary quests in which you typically have to make decisions. I see this as a large improvement over Orgins' quests.

#77
Addai

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Wow, that interview is kind of sad, especially compared to DA2 promotion interviews when they are crapping on the same things they were praising then. I guess in 2 years time despite Origins' success, the large pool of players who want traditional RPG went away... or as someone else said, were taken for granted.

#78
Melca36

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lrrose wrote...

In Exile wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
You were told specifically when you got the quest that the corpse gall was to help the Templars learn how to fight undead better.  It may seem like a minor change to you, but such things help the immersion process.

-Polaris


If insignificant dialogue like that changes your gaming experience, more power to you. You get a random blurb in the journal for the items you find, so why isn't that enough? Joe lost his hat and wants it back because his head gets cold is the same kind of fetch quest  (with the same sort of justification) as the Chantry wanting undead galls.

Is the difference perceived importance?


.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

(The following is MY personal opinion and is separate from the above point. I really shouldn't have to include this note, but this is the internet)

My problem with Origins' side quests was that they were almost entirely "go to this place and kill this enemy" quests or fetch quests. DA2 has secondary quests in which you typically have to make decisions. I see this as a large improvement over Orgins' quests.



You think finding somebody's missing toe or remains is depth?

Those fedex delivery quests were ridiculous. At least there was some meaning to them in Origins.

In the next game, they should add friendship and rivalry to them or make them have some sort of impact. 

You may not be able to understand this but some of us don't like having everything handed to us when we game

Modifié par Melca36, 07 mai 2011 - 06:46 .


#79
lrrose

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No, but they were no different from the Chanter's board quests in Origins. As I said, I prefer the secondary quests (like Magistrate's Orders or A Murder of Crows) to the lackluser "go here and kill these enemies" quests in Origins. And I'm impressed by how you were able to determine my taste in games from two posts, neither of which was particularly long.

Modifié par lrrose, 07 mai 2011 - 06:53 .


#80
Midnight Voyager

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Xilizhra wrote...

I disagree. My Warden really didn't feel like much of a person, just a sort of blank avatar, and the story didn't feel like I owned it. It was just things happening, that I could theoretically decide, but I didn't feel integrated into the world.

Hawke, on the other hand, feels much more like a real person.


She does feel like a person, I guess. However, this person is not a character I want to play, and I can't change this fact.

Here's the epic story of Hawke. She is railroaded by fate into a place that she cannot leave. Once there, she makes a few tiny choices that don't really affect the outcome of her life. She does what she is told that she has to do until she is thrown in a conflict that she cannot escape. Rinse and repeat until the end, which she cannot change, no matter her choices.

She is passive. In my case, she was snarky, which meant that she could NOT be persuasive. (try to wrap your head around that one. If you don't believe me, there are points where you have to be overall diplomatic/good to be persuasive at all. Say what now?) She is NOT my hero. Sure, she talks. She has a voice. (One that I would never have picked for my own character) If you need that to make a character seem like a character, I'm sorry.

Hawke's friends did their own things. Had their own lives. That was alright, though it didn't feel like Hawke was a part of these lives. You could blame the year jumps on that. Her romances were short and abrupt. Everything was mostly chosen by a black and white flick of a switch.

My warden? She was my hero. First and foremost, she was an intelligent, witty young woman. She was good, yet snarky and persuasive. (A skill I always take whenever at all possible in games) When fate took away her family and put her in an impossible situation, she could have just walked off. She could have gone elsewhere to warn the wardens there. Had a better chance of working, even if it would probably take too long to really save Ferelden. She could have even been selfish like Hawke and completely left the country to deal with its own problems. (Hawke gets a pass on the selfish angle because of having her family to worry about, I suppose.) They were both fugutives. My warden decided that this was not good enough. She was going to fix this damned problem. She had a ghost of a chance and decided to go for it. She would not give up until she succeeded.

My warden chose kings, helped end centuries-long curses, toppled rulers, brought justice to her family... and yet was kind and understanding. She did not really agree with Morrigan or Sten's ways, sometimes Zevran's and Shale's. But she did her best to try to understand them and respect them. She gave people second chances, swayed opinions with her words. Yet she was also a bit devious. She stole the king's own crown in general protest. She saw that Anora was a backstabber and agreed to put her on the throne, only to vouch for Alistair at the Landsmeet. She never left a man behind, when at all possible. Everyone survived Redcliffe.

She was a multifaceted character with an iron will. She looked at Fate and said "No. I won't accept that." And she succeeded by her own will, her sheer force of personality gaining her iron-clad friends and allies (And a lover) who would all die if necessary for her and her lofty goals.

That is the character I wanted to play, and that is the character that DA:O let me create.

I felt attached to the deeply human characters in that game, flaws and all. Tears sprung to my eyes when my nephew died, and I sobbed when my parents died as well. I was enraged at Howe. I was crushed when Duncan and Cailan were lost at Ostagar. I got a nice little game-crush on Alistair. My heart caught in my chest when I learned the secret of the Grey Wardens ending the Blight. I walked away from my computer to think when I made the Dark Ritual decision. I agonized over keeping everyone alive at Redcliffe. I asked for friends' opinions when picking a ruler for Orzammar. My chest swelled when I gave my little speech to Howe, the one that angered him and reminded me so sharply of my father. And I felt triumph when I had succeeded over it all. And I'm even missing things. (Glee at stealing Loghain's crown.)

DA2 never brought that out in me. I guess your mom's death was a little sad, but I guessed what was going to happen long before my character had any clue anything was wrong. Made Hawke feel a bit dumb, let me tell you. The slow zoom on her opened-mouth face during the reveal made me actually laugh out loud. Fenris's love scene is pretty hot, with the wall-push, I'll give them that, but I felt really unresolved, what with Hawke being a mage and all.

I WAS my Warden. I was watching Hawke from a distance.

And that was longer than I intended, but there you go.

ETA: I will say that DA2 brings up interesting plot bunny ideas that can spawn wild mass guessing about the nature of things. The idol, Primeval Thaig... God, that spark was there, I just couldn't GET to it with my character. It was all OOC spark.

Modifié par Midnight Voyager, 07 mai 2011 - 07:49 .


#81
bstrothe

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Well said Midnight Voyager. Thanks for the post.

#82
Morroian

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bstrothe wrote...

I was replaying DA:O after DA2, and it is difficult to imagine how the same wonderful and talented people could be working on both projects. DA:O is such a richer game, where as a player I really feel that same feeling as from Baldurs Gate or Neverwinter of being a hero 


Yep, fans want to be big damn heroes not role play a more normal character. Mores the pity.

#83
Morroian

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Midnight Voyager wrote...

She is passive. In my case, she was snarky, which meant that she could NOT be persuasive. (try to wrap your head around that one. If you don't believe me, there are points where you have to be overall diplomatic/good to be persuasive at all. Say what now?) She is NOT my hero. 


Your Hawke is not smart enough to know when to be diplomatic?

And there are other points where being snarky is persuasive, different encounters different approaches.

#84
In Exile

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Melca36 wrote...
You think finding somebody's missing toe or remains is depth?

Those fedex delivery quests were ridiculous. At least there was some meaning to them in Origins.

In the next game, they should add friendship and rivalry to them or make them have some sort of impact. 

You may not be able to understand this but some of us don't like having everything handed to us when we game


There's no meaning to them. In DA:O or in DA2. It's a random blurb. If instead of the Waxler's hat, it was The Waxler's Hat of DOOM which was a phylactery for a blood mage, and you're either giving it to a templar or to the mage (with no dialogue) would you say that quest was better?

I wouldn't. Garbage content is still garbage content, no matter how you couch it.

#85
Midnight Voyager

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Morroian wrote...

Midnight Voyager wrote...

She is passive. In my case, she was snarky, which meant that she could NOT be persuasive. (try to wrap your head around that one. If you don't believe me, there are points where you have to be overall diplomatic/good to be persuasive at all. Say what now?) She is NOT my hero. 


Your Hawke is not smart enough to know when to be diplomatic?

And there are other points where being snarky is persuasive, different encounters different approaches.


She can be diplomatic fine. But if you are not OVERALL diplomatic, you cannot be persuasive in multiple situations. So, because I was snarky, I somehow lacked insight to be persuasive to the elves who want to kill the ex-werewolves. There was no option available because of my overall stance.

Being glib somehow made me less glib, just because I was Overall Snarky. I hated that quite a lot. Do you see why I felt like I had little control? It took away options because I had chosen one option more than others in the past. And I only found this out, really, when my character suddenly and schizophrenically turned Diplomatic overall for a short period because of being diplomatic with the Arishok. Which was a jarring change, suddenly not being snarky at all.

And while I'm at it, I hate the flirting. Hate it, hate it. Mostly because it was terrible. You are hitting an I AM OPEN FOR ROMANCE button. I hated some of the things it made me say! Jesus, did I just say "Hey, sorry about that evil wizard and all, but he has nice taste in hot guys!" Terrible.

It's a bit beside my point, but still.

Modifié par Midnight Voyager, 08 mai 2011 - 12:31 .


#86
Midnight Voyager

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Morroian wrote...

Yep, fans want to be big damn heroes not role play a more normal character. Mores the pity.


Whoops, and while I am noticing this... Er, yes. I don't want to play some poor sod who's getting tossed around by whatever happens around her. I kinda live that, and it's exhausting. I play games for escapism. If I want to play an epic fantasy... and I pick up a game MARKETED as an epic fantasy with you as some world-changing hero... I would like an epic fantasy with a world-changing hero. When there isn't one, and it isn't a character I like in the first place, I am indeed disappointed.

Why is it a pity that I want what I set out to get? It's a pretty integral part of the genre as a whole, and it was a big part of their marketing. Hawke will change the world! Except... not.

In hindisight, I suppose this was to fill the place of the missing persuasion skill, but it makes no sense.

Modifié par Midnight Voyager, 08 mai 2011 - 12:45 .


#87
SirGladiator

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I'd say the problem isn't even that Hawke does less important things than the Warden, its like others have said, its like you're just watching Hawke, as you don't really control the major things that happen. Its like if in DAO you always chose the Elves, always chose the Anvil, always saved Connor, always did the Morrigan ritual, etc etc, you had no say in any of those things, they just always happened. It obviously would've been a vastly inferior game, it wouldn't have been near as much fun. DA2 is the only Bioware game that I've ever played where you have little or no say in all the major events. That doesn't mean a game can't be fun like that, DA2 is still fun, just like the Final Fantasy series is fun, but I don't like DA turning into FF, I like that unique aspect of DA, that you get to make the important decisions, they don't just happen automaticly like in other games.

The fact that we have no control over what happens to Hawke 'and' what happens to Hawke tends to suck makes things worse, but even if everything that happened to Hawke was great, if Hawke saved the world, all her family, and ended the game living in the biggest mansion in Kirkwall with statues of Hawke all around town and a parade in her honor every week, it still would suck that it wasn't because of your choices, it was just because thats the way things happen. This is the first Bioware game that Ive ever played where you basicly have no control over the big decisions, and I can only hope that it will also be the last. This isn't normal for Bioware, its an exception, and hopefully they'll return to the DAO/ME/ME2/KOTOR/JE/pretty much every other game they've ever made formula, of giving the player a major role in what happens.

#88
MyKingdomCold

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I liked the warden from Origins, but I kind of wanted to say "**** you Duncan! I'm not going to be a grey warden!" and run away and hide. Or try to escape. I probably wouldn't have been successful but it would've been better than the dialogue options that ended with you going with Duncan.

As for the choices, I didn't see much difference in choosing which king for Orzammar. It's not like we saw a marked difference between Bhelen or Harrowmont. Instead we read about the differences in the epilogue. The result was some people metagaming. Choosing Bhelen because it seemed to be better than choosing Harrowmont.

#89
Midnight Voyager

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SirGladiator wrote...

I'd say the problem isn't even that Hawke does less important things than the Warden, its like others have said, its like you're just watching Hawke, as you don't really control the major things that happen.


Ah, you nailed it!

Trying to think of examples, there's the Witcher. You're just doing what you have to in that for much of the game, but you can still determine the course of things in the ending. PS:T was pretty unique, in that the same chain of events happens to any Nameless One you make, yet it was still incredibly choice-oriented in other ways. You were only trying to figure out who you were there. That's not particularly world-changing. And your character could be whoever you wanted them to be in that game. Your alignment influenced options, but not to the point where you were kept entirely from valid choices.

I don't mind not Changing The Universe, really. As long as I can change something. I want a choice. I want consequences for what I do. Mind you, I LIKE world-changing stuff, but it's not necessary, as long as it's interesting. If I don't have a real choice, I don't feel connected properly to my character.

Ah well. I just hope the devs and such at least read feedback for 3. I still have hopes somehow, so I'm trying to be constructive. It's hard to really get across the change in feelings between both games, so I gave it a shot.

#90
Morroian

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Midnight Voyager wrote...

Why is it a pity that I want what I set out to get? It's a pretty integral part of the genre as a whole, and it was a big part of their marketing. Hawke will change the world! Except... not.

Hawke's actions directly lead to a change in the status quo. We don't get a choice in the matter though.

#91
Urazz

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I found combat in DA2 to be better.  Sure I could've done with less exploding corpses but the pace of the combat was much better and there was no awkward shuffle.  Sure they went overboard on the wave system and put some wave spawns in bad spots but overall, I found DA2 more challenging than DAO.
RPG-wise, I found Hawke a better character than the Warden who seems too much like a blank slate.  One flaw though was a lack of decisions to affect the ending of the game in minor ways like DAO.

Morroian wrote...

Midnight Voyager wrote...

Why is it a pity that I want what I set out to get? It's a pretty integral part of the genre as a whole, and it was a big part of their marketing. Hawke will change the world! Except... not.

Hawke's actions directly lead to a change in the status quo. We don't get a choice in the matter though.

Yeah his actions did lead to a change in the world.  We just didn't get to choose in how it's effects the world really like you said other than serving as a rallying point for mages or as a symbol of templar repression.

Modifié par Urazz, 08 mai 2011 - 04:11 .


#92
Must have name

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I went and replayed Origins after playing DA2. Almost everything about Origins felt better.

The story was better. The world was actually varied. The combat was miles better (yes Mages are unbalanced, but it's a SP game so who really cares). Even simple things about the combat such as being able to attack before starting the fight, or the tactical camera; where in DA2 I just felt like most of the time I was just spamming a few keys without really concerning myself with what was going on. Though most of all, my Warden was his own character.

I could make him whatever I wanted. With Hawke, I found that when I replayed the game, I made most of the decisions exactly the same. Because especially with the whole Mage-Templar centred plot, I found myself either siding with the Mages because I was a Mage, or siding with them because Hawke had spent most of his life helping to keep his Sister an Apostate. I felt incredibly constrained with him. In contrast, my Warden always said exactly what he meant and had his own character that contrasted from all my other 5 full playthroughs of the game!

It also brought home on final annoyance. That campaign was a Dalish Elf, a Dalish Elf who wanted nothing more than to return to his clan after the Blight. Except i'm forever in the knowledge that because of DA2, he didn't!

Modifié par Must have name, 08 mai 2011 - 09:33 .


#93
Zjarcal

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Morroian wrote...
Yep, fans want to be big damn heroes not role play a more normal character. Mores the pity.


Eh, speak for yourself.

#94
Ciryx

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Zjarcal wrote...

Morroian wrote...
Yep, fans want to be big damn heroes not role play a more normal character. Mores the pity.


Eh, speak for yourself.


Yeah, speak for yourself.

/agrees with Zjar

I want to play normal persons that got thrown into some pile of crap and need to figure a way out. The struggle with these circumstances -with all kind of drama attached- is the stuff thats really interesting. The emotional highs and thrills of adventure such as love as well as the deep depressing stuff like loss and griev... that makes stuff interesting. And in the end the "hero" should maybe overcome his deepest fears and have their own catharsis. The 13 Steps of a Characters journey, you know? You dont have to save worlds from doom or be some "superhero" to get these things across.

/general rant
But on the other hand why do I even post. xD Most people here simply lack the basic knowledge of storywriting and storytelling. It just baffels me how some people are not ashamed to just accuse defs/bioware etc of things and didnt even inform themselfs beforehand. I would be ashamed of myself. But again, thats maybe just me. Being humble seems to be sooooo uncool nowadays. /general rant ;P

Modifié par Ciryx, 08 mai 2011 - 08:40 .


#95
Addai

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Morroian wrote...

bstrothe wrote...

I was replaying DA:O after DA2, and it is difficult to imagine how the same wonderful and talented people could be working on both projects. DA:O is such a richer game, where as a player I really feel that same feeling as from Baldurs Gate or Neverwinter of being a hero 


Yep, fans want to be big damn heroes not role play a more normal character. Mores the pity.

I probably do prefer a more heroic arc, even if it's playing an anti-hero.  However I would have liked what we were promised- a personal story, with significant family connection- if it had been implemented well.

#96
KnightofPhoenix

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Where do people get the idea that Hawke was supposed to be "normal"? Normal people do go hunting for High Dragons and massacre hundreds of dragonlings in the process. Or kill Ancient unknown Rockwraiths.

Is that the excuse for Hawke's laziness throughout the story?

The entire punch line for the game is a "Rise to power" that never happens.

I too am bored with the traditional hero stories and want something new. Something exactly like a rise to power. DA2 did not deliver despite being marketed as such. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 mai 2011 - 09:02 .


#97
Morroian

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Where do people get the idea that Hawke was supposed to be "normal"? Normal people do go hunting for High Dragons and massacre hundreds of dragonlings in the process. Or kill Ancient unknown Rockwraiths. 

I meant more normal as in not being a traditional hero. 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I too am bored with the traditional hero stories and want something new. Something exactly like a rise to power. DA2 did not deliver despite being marketed as such. 

Thats all I'm saying although I enjoyed DA2 more than you did.

#98
Melca36

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Where do people get the idea that Hawke was supposed to be "normal"? Normal people do go hunting for High Dragons and massacre hundreds of dragonlings in the process. Or kill Ancient unknown Rockwraiths.

Is that the excuse for Hawke's laziness throughout the story?

The entire punch line for the game is a "Rise to power" that never happens.

I too am bored with the traditional hero stories and want something new. Something exactly like a rise to power. DA2 did not deliver despite being marketed as such. 


Exactly Kop!!! :wizard:


If my Hawke was supposed to be normal then how come the only cutscene featured him/her killing the ancient rock wraith as well as the high dragon??

At least some of my companions in Origins managed to kill ogres and get the high dragon on occasion.

If they wanted Hawke to be "Normal" they should have let our companions be able to kill those creatures as well.
They really dropped the ball there.

#99
Brockololly

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Where do people get the idea that Hawke was supposed to be "normal"? Normal people do go hunting for High Dragons and massacre hundreds of dragonlings in the process. Or kill Ancient unknown Rockwraiths.

Normal in the sense that you're not somebody thats been inducted into a secret/ancient/long forgotten/elite group of warriors/jedi/special ops people that are tasked with saving the world.

As I recall in some of the marketing blurbs, they played up the fact that Hawke is just a regular person- but thats essentially undermined at the start when Cassandra is looking for Hawke cause he/she is the only person in the whole wide world that could possibly save it from war.


KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The entire punch line for the game is a "Rise to power" that never happens.

I too am bored with the traditional hero stories and want something new. Something exactly like a rise to power. DA2 did not deliver despite being marketed as such. 


I'd agree- like so much else with DA2, on paper, as a concept, many of the things that were propped up as new and different sound intriguing and cool. Yet in execution, they fall flat on their face.

Thats not to say I don't want BioWare to try things like the framed narrative or another non saving the world type story again, but at the same time, I'd much rather have them do a traditional "Save the world" story if they can execute that well as opposed to a DA2 scenario where they try something new but can't execute. I just feel like combined with the shorter dev cycle of DA2 combined with all the other changes, they bit off more than they could chew and thus you end up with the mess that is DA2- some potentially great ideas that got mangled due to poor execution and having to rush the game out the door.

Modifié par Brockololly, 08 mai 2011 - 09:30 .


#100
Zjarcal

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The entire punch line for the game is a "Rise to power" that never happens.


Maybe not in the way you envisioned it, but you are certainly in a position of much more power by the end of act 3 than where you started in act 1.