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[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The entire punch line for the game is a "Rise to power" that never happens.

Maybe not in the way you envisioned it, but you are certainly in a position of much more power by the end of act 3 than where you started in act 1.

Other than symbolically, how? If Hawke does not use his supposed new found powers, then what's the point? 

Hawke has virtually no power at all by the end of act 3 ( and the power he could have had, he never bothered to use) and is dragged into this mess. Which I wouldn't mind that much, if it didn't have Hawke do nothing for 3 years, when you can spot the disaster a mile away.

Furthermore, how was his rise to power? Just killing Qunari? That's it?
No alliances, networks, contacts, PR work? Just killing and massacring and recieving the title of champion? That's not power really. That's just fame. Fame that could have been used but wasn't even, at that.

@ Brock
The entire premise that Hawke is the only one who can stop the war is just laughable and makes no sense whatsoever.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 mai 2011 - 09:43 .

[Foolsfolly]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The entire punch line for the game is a "Rise to power" that never happens.

Maybe not in the way you envisioned it, but you are certainly in a position of much more power by the end of act 3 than where you started in act 1.

On the run from the Templars is better than on the run from the Darkspawn?

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Other than symbolically, how? If Hawke does not use his supposed new found powers, then what's the point? 

Hawke has virtually no power at all by the end of act 3 ( and the power he could have had, he never bothered to use) and is dragged into this mess. Which I wouldn't mind that much, if it didn't have Hawke do nothing for 3 years, when you can spot the disaster a mile away.

One example I can think of is in act 3 when you visit Meredith and bring Anders along. Anders intervenes and Meredith says something along the ines "your ties to the Champion prevent me from arresting you" (not verbatim). Whereas in act 1, Bethany is taken away from you no matter how much you oppose it.

To me that's an example of the influence Hawke can have by the end of act 3.

Furthermore, how was his rise to power? Just killing Qunari? That's it?
No alliances, networks, contacts, PR work? Just killing and massacring and recieving the title of champion? That's not power really. That's just fame. Fame that could have been used but wasn't even, at that.

As I said before, it's not how you envisioned it or desired it.

Foolsfolly wrote...
On the run from the Templars is better than on the run from the Darkspawn?

Because you have to be on the run from the Templars? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Zjarcal, 08 mai 2011 - 09:51 .

[Foolsfolly]

If you're not on the run from the Templars you became Viscount did nothing and then are on the run from the Seekers.

There's really no difference in the endings. You're still being hunting by Cassandra.

[Zjarcal]

Foolsfolly wrote...

If you're not on the run from the Templars you became Viscount did nothing and then are on the run from the Seekers.

That's assuming Hawke is hiding from the Seekers. We don't know why Hawke has disappeared.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
One example I can think of is in act 3 when you visit Meredith and bring Anders along. Anders intervenes and Meredith says something along the ines "your ties to the Champion prevent me from arresting you" (not verbatim). Whereas in act 1, Bethany is taken away from you no matter how much you oppose it.

To me that's an example of the influence Hawke can have by the end of act 3.

That's symbolic. That Meredith can't afford to anger people more than she already has.
But it's passive, not proactive influence at all.

Hawke does not use it actively. And he had 3 years to do so. 

Furthermore, how was his rise to power? Just killing Qunari? That's it?
No alliances, networks, contacts, PR work? Just killing and massacring and recieving the title of champion? That's not power really. That's just fame. Fame that could have been used but wasn't even, at that.

As I said before, it's not how you envisioned it or desired it.

No, that's not what a rise to power is in the first place. That's fame (which is not even used). Hulk smash can do it just as well. 
Nothing to do with how I envision or desire it.

And if that's supposed to be a rise to power, then the Warden does it ten times better. So how is it not traditional? 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 mai 2011 - 09:57 .

[Vicious]

Becoming Viscount is it's own achievement. And is literally the most pointless achievement in the entire game.

[Foolsfolly]

Zjarcal wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

If you're not on the run from the Templars you became Viscount did nothing and then are on the run from the Seekers.

That's assuming Hawke is hiding from the Seekers. We don't know why Hawke has disappeared.

What? You think while Viscount Hawke is told of some terrible threat and so Hawke selflessly abandons the seat of power and strolls into danger?

Hawke's relunctant to everything (except for the plot railroads Hawke into having to do something). Hawke wouldn't act unless something forced Hawke to act. Hawke's the most reactive protagonist BioWare's ever created.

Seekers were after Hawke, Hawke ran. And when post-game DLC rolls out I'm sure they'll blandly mix the Pro-Mage and Pro-Templar Hawke story into one thing...Hawke on the run. The rest of the game can't give you a different outcome why would some cheap 2 hour extension offer something different?

Hawke's journey is small an unimportant. Refugee arrives, reclaims nobility by becoming rich, and then is a puppet between Meredith and Orsino until the finale...where Hawke's on the run and hiding because Hawke has no spine.

And Hawke has no spine because BioWare wants a nice easy import for DA3.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But it's passive, not proactive influence at all.

Hawke does not use it actively. And he had 3 years to do so. 

Passive or not, it's influence. If it had been anyone else Meredith would've acted (hell, she even wanted to imprison Orsino).

No, that's not what a rise to power is in the first place. That's fame (which is not even used). Hulk smash can do it just as well.

I'm not argue with you on the definition of a rise to power because for one, I don't even have a definition to begin with (although to me, simply being more powerful than what you were at one point is a "rise" in the power you had), and for two we're not gonna agree here.

Foolsfolly wrote...
What? You think while Viscount Hawke is told of some terrible threat and so Hawke selflessly abandons the seat of power and strolls into danger?

Right. You've formed your own opinion on the subject that won't change at all. No need to continue discussing it then,

Modifié par Zjarcal, 08 mai 2011 - 10:10 .

[Brockololly]

Vicious wrote...

Becoming Viscount is it's own achievement. And is literally the most pointless achievement in the entire game.

Seriously- its like it was tossed in at the last second cause they needed to hit some achievement quota.

"Oh...ah, lets make it so Hawke becomes Viscount automatically if you side with the Templars."
"But that doesn't really make much sense?"
"Its Dragon Age 2 - its not required to make any sense- ITS AWESOME!"

[KnightofPhoenix]

Vicious wrote...

Becoming Viscount is it's own achievement. And is literally the most pointless achievement in the entire game.

Pointless, and in some cases, makes little sense (if you're a mage).

If that's supposed to be the great rise to power, then it's not dissimilar from the Warden. So their delivery is nothing new, is laughable in its execution and the marketing was ridiculous in retrospect (more than average). 

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Brockololly wrote...

Vicious wrote...

Becoming Viscount is it's own achievement. And is literally the most pointless achievement in the entire game.

Seriously- its like it was tossed in at the last second cause they needed to hit some achievement quota.

"Oh...ah, lets make it so Hawke becomes Viscount automatically if you side with the Templars."
"But that doesn't really make much sense?"
"Its Dragon Age 2 - its not required to make any sense- ITS AWESOME!"

This is generally what happens when you rush a game out in 18 months with the hopes of cashing it. Not much tends to make sense.

[Zjarcal]

Vicious wrote...

Becoming Viscount is it's own achievement. And is literally the most pointless achievement in the entire game.

That is something I do agree with.

[MorrigansLove]

Dragon Age 2 was pointless in itself.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...
Passive or not, it's influence. If it had been anyone else Meredith would've acted (hell, she even wanted to imprison Orsino).

Influence means you can shape people and their decision. Hawke does not do that.
Hawke gets a reprieve from Meredith because his name is important (because he can kill well, not because of any charisma, political astuteness or intelligence). That's it.

Not because Hawke has actual power that Meredith fears. Only his name. Hence fame vs power.

although to me, simply being more powerful than what you were at one point is a "rise" in the power you had

If you don't use that supposed power you have, then it's useless. So what's the point?

The Warden ends up *actually* being much more powerful than he started. So how is DA2 new?
They failed being new, and they failed being as good as Origins (which is syaing a lot since Origins was meh in that) in the very thing it's claiming to provide.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 mai 2011 - 10:16 .

[Foolsfolly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Vicious wrote...

Becoming Viscount is it's own achievement. And is literally the most pointless achievement in the entire game.

Pointless, and in some cases, makes little sense (if you're a mage).

If that's supposed to be the great rise to power, then it's not dissimilar from the Warden. So their delivery is nothing new, is laughable in its execution and the marketing was ridiculous in retrospect (more than average). 

It's worse Hawke (the character let alone the Player) never active seeks anything. Hawke's given nobility in a cutscene never had to fight for that. Hawke's given the Champion title without ever earning it (and again in a cutscene). And then Hawke becomes Viscount despite never struggling to be such.

Things just fall into Hawke's lap without Hawke doing anything to get these things. It makes them useless and it makes Hawke's rise a joke.

[Brockololly]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
This is generally what happens when you rush a game out in 18 months with the hopes of cashing it. Not much tends to make sense.

I'm just waiting for BioWare and Laidlaw to bust out the Chewbacca Defense in justifying DA2

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Warden ends up *actually* being much more powerful than he started. So how is DA2 new?
They failed being new, and they failed being as good as Origins (which is syaing a lot since Origins was meh in that) in the very thing it's claiming to provide.

For the record, I never made any claim that it was new.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
... because he can kill well, not because of any charisma, political astuteness or intelligence.

Bah, my Hawke IS charismatic and intelligent! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/policeman.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Zjarcal, 08 mai 2011 - 10:22 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Warden ends up *actually* being much more powerful than he started. So how is DA2 new?
They failed being new, and they failed being as good as Origins (which is syaing a lot since Origins was meh in that) in the very thing it's claiming to provide.

For the record, I never made any claim that it was new.

Sorry, got carried away

It is just common argument that DA2 is so untraditional and different from Origins (for instance, that Hawke is supposed to be more normal or untraditional hero), when it's not the case and imo, ends up being a regression. Also, DA2 marketed itself as being new and different, which is not really the case either.

I could almost swear that Fable 3 had a better rise to power plot than DA2. Which is tragic.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 mai 2011 - 10:22 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
... because he can kill well, not because of any charisma, political astuteness or intelligence.

Bah, my Hawke IS charismatic and intelligent! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/policeman.png[/smilie]

Don't get me started on Hawke

I've literally never disliked a protagnist that much in my entire life.

[MorrigansLove]

I agree, Hawke is just a bland, unlikeable character. He's always snarky, and never seems to care about anything except for money. If he really cared about his family, then why not get the **** out of Kirkwall and back into Ferelden? Why stay in a city that cannot be saved from all the chaos that overwhelms it?

Modifié par MorrigansLove, 08 mai 2011 - 10:27 .

[Foolsfolly]

If Hawke had decided to become Champion/Noble/Viscount so they could change the balance in Kirkwall (side for Mages or Templars) then went out with that goal in mind...and did things to become Champion/Noble/Viscount then it would have meaning.

But just getting three titles for doing unrelated things without ever wanting to be those things...they're meaningless.

Plus, no one listens to Hawke anyway. If Champion had any kind of authority to it then people would listen when the Champion spoke. No one does. People just order Hawke around like Hawke was that little refugee no one.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MorrigansLove wrote...
 If he really cared about his family, then why not get the **** out of Kirkwall and back into Ferelden?

Why didn't  he invite his uncle to come live with him, at least after the death of Leandra?
Now taht he's rich, he can ignore his uncle who gave them shelter for a year and act like a spoiled brat?

[Foolsfolly]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

MorrigansLove wrote...
 If he really cared about his family, then why not get the **** out of Kirkwall and back into Ferelden?

Why didn't  he invite his uncle to come live with him, at least after the death of Leandra?
Now taht he's rich, he can ignore his uncle who gave them shelter for a year and act like a spoiled brat?

Why didn't he visit his Templar brother in the Gallows? Or why didn't he break his Mage sister out? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Instead of criticizing all the time (despite how therapeutic it is), I just thought of something that might have made the game better.

I could find the premise of Hawke's story not being about a rise to power, but of trying to guide a family in troubling times, to be interesting. While DA2 was for the most part better than Origins when it came to family (imo at least), I still did not feel it was strong enough to compensate for the general weakness of the plot.

One thing I think would have made it better is not have one of the siblings arbitrarily die, and have both. But both end up having completely opposite views, with Carver joining the Templars and Bethany joining the Circle. And relations fall apart and Hawke would be right in the thick of it, trying to mend family relations. Thing get even worse when Leandra dies and the family is falling apart, despite of Hawke's best efforts, or indeed because of them (think of it like Michael Corleone from Godfather. Is it fair to compare the two? Lol nope, but I am trying to convey a point).

That imo, would have made it much more interesting. To have Hawke trying his best to keep his family together, and it's not working out due to external circumstances.That's excellent tragedy material.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 mai 2011 - 10:58 .