130 réponses à ce sujet

[KodiakAsh]

What people don't get about the Renegade Shepard it is doesn't matter what he does. He can commit mass genocide and burn half the galaxy and he's still going to go out there and carry the galaxy kicking and screaming the whole damn way through it to victory.

Paragon Shepard can be friends with everyone and build an army of Rachni, Geth and whatever else he wants...Renegade Shepard is an army of mentality willing to do literally anything to get the job done.

[Seboist]

KodiakAsh wrote...

What people don't get about the Renegade Shepard it is doesn't matter what he does. He can commit mass genocide and burn half the galaxy and he's still going to go out there and carry the galaxy kicking and screaming the whole damn way through it to victory.

Paragon Shepard can be friends with everyone and build an army of Rachni, Geth and whatever else he wants...Renegade Shepard is an army of mentality willing to do literally anything to get the job done.

Yeah, they're two sides of the same coin. They're both tremedous leaders and saviors of the Galaxy.

[jbblue05]

KodiakAsh wrote...

What people don't get about the Renegade Shepard it is doesn't matter what he does. He can commit mass genocide and burn half the galaxy and he's still going to go out there and carry the galaxy kicking and screaming the whole damn way through it to victory.

Paragon Shepard can be friends with everyone and build an army of Rachni, Geth and whatever else he wants...Renegade Shepard is an army of mentality willing to do literally anything to get the job done.

Paragons self-righteousness is sort of similar similar to Renegade's ruthlessness.
Paragons want to feel all warm and fuzzy while renegades want to get the job done

[Golden Owl]

jbblue05 wrote...

KodiakAsh wrote...

What people don't get about the Renegade Shepard it is doesn't matter what he does. He can commit mass genocide and burn half the galaxy and he's still going to go out there and carry the galaxy kicking and screaming the whole damn way through it to victory.

Paragon Shepard can be friends with everyone and build an army of Rachni, Geth and whatever else he wants...Renegade Shepard is an army of mentality willing to do literally anything to get the job done.

Paragons self-righteousness is sort of similar similar to Renegade's ruthlessness.
Paragons want to feel all warm and fuzzy while renegades want to get the job done

I disagree...nothing to do with warm and fuzzies...Paragon just doesn't feel the need to bludgeon his way through the Galaxy to get the job done.

[Seboist]

I feel warm and fuzzy when my Shep guns down scum like Rana Thanoptis and Helena Blake but that's just me.

[jbblue05]

Golden Owl wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

KodiakAsh wrote...

What people don't get about the Renegade Shepard it is doesn't matter what he does. He can commit mass genocide and burn half the galaxy and he's still going to go out there and carry the galaxy kicking and screaming the whole damn way through it to victory.

Paragon Shepard can be friends with everyone and build an army of Rachni, Geth and whatever else he wants...Renegade Shepard is an army of mentality willing to do literally anything to get the job done.

Paragons self-righteousness is sort of similar similar to Renegade's ruthlessness.
Paragons want to feel all warm and fuzzy while renegades want to get the job done

I disagree...nothing to do with warm and fuzzies...Paragon just doesn't feel the need to bludgeon his way through the Galaxy to get the job done.

What's the difference paragons want to play nice and do the "good thing"?

[Golden Owl]

Seboist wrote...

I feel warm and fuzzy when my Shep guns down scum like Rana Thanoptis and Helena Blake but that's just me.

Blood lust much.......just kidding...

[Golden Owl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

I disagree...nothing to do with warm and fuzzies...Paragon just doesn't feel the need to bludgeon his way through the Galaxy to get the job done.

Doesn't look that way when he's lecturing Mordin.

Then thats a matter of perception Saphra....you and I have different perceptions of the same conversation.

[Golden Owl]

jbblue05 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

KodiakAsh wrote...

What people don't get about the Renegade Shepard it is doesn't matter what he does. He can commit mass genocide and burn half the galaxy and he's still going to go out there and carry the galaxy kicking and screaming the whole damn way through it to victory.

Paragon Shepard can be friends with everyone and build an army of Rachni, Geth and whatever else he wants...Renegade Shepard is an army of mentality willing to do literally anything to get the job done.

Paragons self-righteousness is sort of similar similar to Renegade's ruthlessness.
Paragons want to feel all warm and fuzzy while renegades want to get the job done

I disagree...nothing to do with warm and fuzzies...Paragon just doesn't feel the need to bludgeon his way through the Galaxy to get the job done.

What's the difference paragons want to play nice and do the "good thing"?

Warm and fuzzy just means sucking up pretty much...Where as going the diplomatic route means trying to get the most achieved with the least resistance, seems more like good planning to me.

[Golden Owl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...


Then thats a matter of perception Saphra....you and I have different perceptions of the same conversation.

Thank you for that stellar observation.

Anytime Saphra........As you may remember from previous run ins, I refuse to enter debate with you, I see it as a pointless excercise...I prefer debates, not resorting to personal attacks.

[jbblue05]

Golden Owl wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

KodiakAsh wrote...

What people don't get about the Renegade Shepard it is doesn't matter what he does. He can commit mass genocide and burn half the galaxy and he's still going to go out there and carry the galaxy kicking and screaming the whole damn way through it to victory.

Paragon Shepard can be friends with everyone and build an army of Rachni, Geth and whatever else he wants...Renegade Shepard is an army of mentality willing to do literally anything to get the job done.

Paragons self-righteousness is sort of similar similar to Renegade's ruthlessness.
Paragons want to feel all warm and fuzzy while renegades want to get the job done

I disagree...nothing to do with warm and fuzzies...Paragon just doesn't feel the need to bludgeon his way through the Galaxy to get the job done.

What's the difference paragons want to play nice and do the "good thing"?

Warm and fuzzy just means sucking up pretty much...Where as going the diplomatic route means trying to get the most achieved with the least resistance, seems more like good planning to me.

no not really its mainly about your moral concious.
A Paragon won't sacriffice his morals to achieve his/her goals.

Saving the Counil and destroying the base weren't diplomatic choices. They were feel good choices.

[DPSSOC]

I don't think either side should be punished but Paragon choices seem to lack weight. For example let's look at Bring Down the Sky (Spoilers if you haven't played). In BDtS the Renegade choice is to sacrifice the hostages and kill Balak, Now whatever your reasoning the game almost immediately forces you to consider the question, "Was it worth it?" We're forced to consider this again when on the Citadel there's a news report about a vigil being held for those lost with a sermon being given by Kate Bowman's father. Renegades made a choice and they had to ask themselves "Was it worth it?"

Near as I can tell Paragon players in that same situation don't. The Paragon choice is to let Balak go to save the hostages, and the issue is never raised that Balak might kill a lot more people than you just saved, "Was it worth it?" In ME2 while Balak is mentioned I believe it's just to say that he's "still at large" but nothing of him having other victims that you weren't there to save.

Or the Council; Renegades kill the Council to ensure Sovereign's defeat and increase humanity's power. In ME2 we get that; humans are running the show and Sovereign was beaten, but the game also reinforces the cost of that decision; the aliens are not happy with us and a grand total of 10,000 people died on that ship, I killed them. The game throws it all out in front of you and says, "Stack what you've gained against what it cost you; was it worth it?" Now I'm sure there are Renegade choices that don't ask the question but not a single Paragon choice does.

That's why I generally play Renegade; not because I'm pro-human or enjoy being a dick, but because my decisions have consequences that I have to deal with and ask myself "did I make the right choice." I've tried Paragon and I've never had to ask myself that, not once every Paragon choice thus far has come up roses. I let thugs and murderers run free for no reason other than to ease my conscience and not one of them has backslid, not one has made me question or regret my decision.

That's my problem with Paragon choices they don't have any teeth.

[Seboist]

jbblue05 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

KodiakAsh wrote...

What people don't get about the Renegade Shepard it is doesn't matter what he does. He can commit mass genocide and burn half the galaxy and he's still going to go out there and carry the galaxy kicking and screaming the whole damn way through it to victory.

Paragon Shepard can be friends with everyone and build an army of Rachni, Geth and whatever else he wants...Renegade Shepard is an army of mentality willing to do literally anything to get the job done.

Paragons self-righteousness is sort of similar similar to Renegade's ruthlessness.
Paragons want to feel all warm and fuzzy while renegades want to get the job done

I disagree...nothing to do with warm and fuzzies...Paragon just doesn't feel the need to bludgeon his way through the Galaxy to get the job done.

What's the difference paragons want to play nice and do the "good thing"?

Warm and fuzzy just means sucking up pretty much...Where as going the diplomatic route means trying to get the most achieved with the least resistance, seems more like good planning to me.

no not really its mainly about your moral concious.
A Paragon won't sacriffice his morals to achieve his/her goals.

Saving the Counil and destroying the base weren't diplomatic choices. They were feel good choices.

Saving the Council in ME1 certainly makes no logical sense considering the information we had the time. I still would have left them to die even if I liked them.

The Collector base decision is more questionable. Personally I think saving it is the most logical choice but you can make a decent argument over safety concerns.

Still, the Paragon rational in-game for both is touchy feely and ego stroking("i won't sacrifice the soul of our species",wtf?).

[Shaun2406]

I also would like the ability to better justify why I made some of the renegade decisions I did... My sheps generally paragon, but let the council die because saving a political body at the risk of getting the galaxy wiped out didn't make sense (I know, I can save them and save the galaxy but Shepard doesn't at the time he makes the decision, and its the choice that makes more sense without the benifit of hindsight)... However you're never really given a chance to explain that.

Same with keeping the Collector Base. I would've much rather kept it and given it to the Alliance/Council but I was on a Cerberus Operation and the choices were Cerberus or nothing... I'd rather have to fight Cerberus after wiping out the reapers than get wiped out by the reapers (this was before I found out they went all retarded and sided with the reapers)...

Generally the minor renegade choices involve being a jerk, while the major choices are (most of the time) pragmatic, though the game seems to have a habit of combining pro-human and pragmatic (can we have a renegade choice in ME3 that involves letting a lot of humans die to save a greater number of aliens in the long run please?)

I apologise for rambling.

[jbblue05]

Seboist wrote...

Saving the Council in ME1 certainly makes no logical sense considering the information we had the time. I still would have left them to die even if I liked them.

The Collector base decision is more questionable. Personally I think saving it is the most logical choice but you can make a decent argument over safety concerns.

Still, the Paragon rational in-game for both is touchy feely and ego stroking("i won't sacrifice the soul of our species",wtf?).

Save the COuncil, 10,000 lives, and defeat Soveregin, while the Alliance loses only 8 cruisers ( The Alliance can rebuild those in just a few years)  Aliens and humans love each other but humans aren't as powerful

or

Sacrifice the Council and 10,000 lives and defeat Sovereign, The Alliance loses 4-5 cruisers (But somehow they are much more powerful because they have 3 more cruisers Aliens are ungrateful jerks and hate humans but humanity has more power

   Paragons get to have their cake and eat it too.


I believe destroying the CB is a pure self-righteous stand and people aren't immersing themselves in the ME Universe as they believe no matter what they do BIoware is going to let them win, and because the CB is optional its not going to be key in stopping the Reapers

[Seboist]

jbblue05 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Saving the Council in ME1 certainly makes no logical sense considering the information we had the time. I still would have left them to die even if I liked them.

The Collector base decision is more questionable. Personally I think saving it is the most logical choice but you can make a decent argument over safety concerns.

Still, the Paragon rational in-game for both is touchy feely and ego stroking("i won't sacrifice the soul of our species",wtf?).

Save the COuncil, 10,000 lives, and defeat Soveregin, while the Alliance loses only 8 cruisers ( The Alliance can rebuild those in just a few years)  Aliens and humans love each other but humans aren't as powerful

or

Sacrifice the Council and 10,000 lives and defeat Sovereign, The Alliance loses 4-5 cruisers (But somehow they are much more powerful because they have 3 more cruisers Aliens are ungrateful jerks and hate humans but humanity has more power

   Paragons get to have their cake and eat it too.


I believe destroying the CB is a pure self-righteous stand and people aren't immersing themselves in the ME Universe as they believe no matter what they do BIoware is going to let them win, and because the CB is optional its not going to be key in stopping the Reapers

If Paragons having their cake and eating it wasn't bad enough, Renegades don't even get to see the human dominated council. Talk about bull****.

What's especially funny about the CB Paragon decision is that TIM gets bashed for saying "Cerberus is humanity" but Shepard gets a pass on having the arrogance to think HE is humanity with his "I won't sacrifice the soul of my species" line.

[Golden Owl]

[quote]jbblue05 wrote...

[quote]Golden Owl wrote...

[quote]jbblue05 wrote...

[quote]Golden Owl wrote...

[quote]jbblue05 wrote...

[quote]KodiakAsh wrote...

What people don't get about the Renegade Shepard it is doesn't matter what he does. He can commit mass genocide and burn half the galaxy and he's still going to go out there and carry the galaxy kicking and screaming the whole damn way through it to victory.

Paragon Shepard can be friends with everyone and build an army of Rachni, Geth and whatever else he wants...Renegade Shepard is an army of mentality willing to do literally anything to get the job done.[/quote]

Paragons self-righteousness is sort of similar similar to Renegade's ruthlessness.
Paragons want to feel all warm and fuzzy while renegades want to get the job done[/quote]

I disagree...nothing to do with warm and fuzzies...Paragon just doesn't feel the need to bludgeon his way through the Galaxy to get the job done.

[/quote]
What's the difference paragons want to play nice and do the "good thing"?[/quote]

Warm and fuzzy just means sucking up pretty much...Where as going the diplomatic route means trying to get the most achieved with the least resistance, seems more like good planning to me.

[/quote]
[quote]no not really its mainly about your moral concious.
A Paragon won't sacriffice his morals to achieve his/her goals.[/quote]

This is a good short argument... As I see it myself, this is a yes and no, moral concious is the first feeling to arise...yes, absolutely yes, but I do know for myself anyway, that many decisions had me sitting, considering for a long time in both games as to which decision would make most sense to me from a more tacical point of view...I didn't just want to play paragon because it was there or made my moral code happy....when I play from a philosophical and tactical point of view I can put my own moral code on stand by and play from a perspective that I believe makes the most sense to me...does that make sense to you ibblue?

[quote]Saving the Counil and destroying the base weren't diplomatic choices. They were feel good choices.[/quote]

I again disagree...I personally see them as diplomatic choices....

Saving the Council: No matter how much I personally think the council AND politics suck....they are a symbolic centre piece that people tend to rally around in times of great stress, people as a majority tend to look to their appointed representatives....With the advent of the Reapers looming large over the Galactic communities heads, I saw saving the council as a strategic move designed to to hold the people under that one umbrella of Galatic untiy...basically keeping them tight knit, to allow faster communication and combined militeristic formation when the time comes.

Destoying the Base: I strongly believe TIM really has no real interest in the protection of the Galatic whole and will become a hell of a liability to the stability AND saving the Galaxy if he were to have the Base at his disposel...given his dispostion and (to me) twisted ideals, he will in fact use that Reaper tech to create his own form of Reapers and use those to over throw the Galaxy at some point...I suspect he would use this during or directly after the Reaper attacks while the Galaxy is still reeling and weak to gain for himself the upper hand...I don't think it's a risk worth taking.

Thats my take on it anyway...and apologies for the long delay in response, I am a one finger typer.

[Golden Owl]

Seboist wrote...


Still, the Paragon rational in-game for both is touchy feely and ego stroking("i won't sacrifice the soul of our species",wtf?).

I thought that conversation only happened if you saved the base?...Damn, gonna have to replay that bit.

[Golden Owl]

Shaun2406 wrote...


Same with keeping the Collector Base. I would've much rather kept it and given it to the Alliance/Council but I was on a Cerberus Operation and the choices were Cerberus or nothing... 

Agreed, I would have kept the base if I could have chosen who to give it to

[jbblue05]

Seboist wrote...

If Paragons having their cake and eating it wasn't bad enough, Renegades don't even get to see the human dominated council. Talk about bull****.

What's especially funny about the CB Paragon decision is that TIM gets bashed for saying "Cerberus is humanity" but Shepard gets a pass on having the arrogance to think HE is humanity with his "I won't sacrifice the soul of my species" line.

Paragon SHepard just like TIM believe they have the best interests for humanity at heart.
oh the irony

Paragons are selfish jerks more than they realize

[DPSSOC]

jbblue05 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

If Paragons having their cake and eating it wasn't bad enough, Renegades don't even get to see the human dominated council. Talk about bull****.

What's especially funny about the CB Paragon decision is that TIM gets bashed for saying "Cerberus is humanity" but Shepard gets a pass on having the arrogance to think HE is humanity with his "I won't sacrifice the soul of my species" line.

Paragon SHepard just like TIM believe they have the best interests for humanity at heart.
oh the irony

Paragons are selfish jerks more than they realize

Wouldn't it be magical if Renegade Shepard's essentially became Saren (I really hope we get the Renegade line, "Mine is the only way any of us survive" even better if ME1 squaddies call us on it) while Paragons essentially become TIM.

[Golden Owl]

DPSSOC wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

If Paragons having their cake and eating it wasn't bad enough, Renegades don't even get to see the human dominated council. Talk about bull****.

What's especially funny about the CB Paragon decision is that TIM gets bashed for saying "Cerberus is humanity" but Shepard gets a pass on having the arrogance to think HE is humanity with his "I won't sacrifice the soul of my species" line.

Paragon SHepard just like TIM believe they have the best interests for humanity at heart.
oh the irony

Paragons are selfish jerks more than they realize

Wouldn't it be magical if Renegade Shepard's essentially became Saren (I really hope we get the Renegade line, "Mine is the only way any of us survive" even better if ME1 squaddies call us on it)

That would be cool...Saren is epic.

while Paragons essentially become TIM.

 If that were to happen, my ME3 game would end up on the never to be played again pile.