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[jbblue05]

DPSSOC wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

If Paragons having their cake and eating it wasn't bad enough, Renegades don't even get to see the human dominated council. Talk about bull****.

What's especially funny about the CB Paragon decision is that TIM gets bashed for saying "Cerberus is humanity" but Shepard gets a pass on having the arrogance to think HE is humanity with his "I won't sacrifice the soul of my species" line.

Paragon SHepard just like TIM believe they have the best interests for humanity at heart.
oh the irony

Paragons are selfish jerks more than they realize

Wouldn't it be magical if Renegade Shepard's essentially became Saren (I really hope we get the Renegade line, "Mine is the only way any of us survive" even better if ME1 squaddies call us on it) while Paragons essentially become TIM.

Renegades hate Saren  
Paragons hate TIM  

Tim gets blamed for what  his cell leaders do.  But Paragons refused to see their error in putting Anderson on the Council and the mess he has wrought upon the Glaaxy

[Niddy']

jbblue05 wrote...


Renegades hate Saren  
Paragons hate TIM  

Tim gets blamed for what  his cell leaders do.  But Paragons refused to see their error in putting Anderson on the Council and the mess he has wrought upon the Glaaxy

I really liked Saren.
I hate TIM.

There's a difference between a racist guy who sits in a chair all day and a man striving to save the galaxy. Sadly Saren killed himself instead of joining me.

Modifié par Niddy', 09 mai 2011 - 05:54 .

[Golden Owl]

As a paragon player, I would have liked Saren to survive also...he was pretty awesome, would have loved him on my team.

[jbblue05]

As a renegade you've got to hate Saren for attacking Eden Prime and being a total ass at the council meeting.

[Golden Owl]

jbblue05 wrote...

As a renegade you've got to hate Saren for attacking Eden Prime and being a total ass at the council meeting.

Was more making the point that paragon and renegade can agree on some issues....but your view is your view.

[Tripedius]

After playing a default ME2 game (renegade) and playing ME1 and ME2 one after the other (paragon) I'm pretty sure renegade isn't the way to go. Had plenty of cameo's in the ME1/ME2 paragon playthrough, but very little in the renegade playthrough (only newsreports seem to change). Like in the renegade play I didn't meet the asari's connected to the rachni and the Torian or Gianna. So I think renegade players could miss out on a lot esp. since almost every renegade quest ends in death for the people involved. Like not meeting your former crew in ME3 (they are all dead, you didn't send an escort).
Ofc the best option would be that paragons get chased by Cerberus and renegades get to work with Cerberus and chased by all the relatives of the people you've killed, but that's not going to happen.....

[Thrombin]

I played full Renegade as one of my play throughs because I wanted to see the other side of the game but, while some of the interrupts and dialogue were fun and refreshing, the overall feel left me with a sour taste in my mouth. I really disliked Renegade Shepard and the Bring Down the Sky mission was one of the most depressing moments of the whole thing. I had to struggle to bring myself to continue with the character at all after that. I can understand people wanting to play the bad guy but I can't understand people defending Renegade as actually being the best way to be.

Each to their own, I guess, but I have to say I'm a bit shocked at all the anti-Paragon sentiment. I think that's a bit sad, personally

Modifié par Thrombin, 09 mai 2011 - 11:56 .

[Clonedzero]

Tripedius wrote...

After playing a default ME2 game (renegade) and playing ME1 and ME2 one after the other (paragon) I'm pretty sure renegade isn't the way to go. Had plenty of cameo's in the ME1/ME2 paragon playthrough, but very little in the renegade playthrough (only newsreports seem to change). Like in the renegade play I didn't meet the asari's connected to the rachni and the Torian or Gianna. So I think renegade players could miss out on a lot esp. since almost every renegade quest ends in death for the people involved. Like not meeting your former crew in ME3 (they are all dead, you didn't send an escort).
Ofc the best option would be that paragons get chased by Cerberus and renegades get to work with Cerberus and chased by all the relatives of the people you've killed, but that's not going to happen.....

yeah, renegades certainly seem to get the short end of the stick.

i purposely play paragade because well, being pure paragon is boring and i dont like how everything turns out perfectly for the paragons. its a bit sickening how huggy wuggy it is.

helena blake? social worker? REALLY? come on....thats just dumb. "you showed me the error of my ways! im a saint now helping the poor and sick on omega!" wtf? seriously? i always install her as the crime lord in my paragon playthroughs and liken it to CIA installed dictators.

always going to be crime, but if you control the crime then its better. that way i stopped slavery and red sand in that crime ring and installed a criminal leader i can control and order around.

also kill the rachni every single time. why? because. its stupid. a bug queen with unstable easily broken off hive mind drones that was tortured and expirmented on by humans and asari for weeks suddenly forgives everyone cus ONE human freed her? come on. suddenly peaceful and happy? how dumb. plus theres absolutely no way for them to join galactic society due to the queen being the only one that actually has sentiant thoughts and drones are all basically slaves to her. and the fact the queens tend to live deep underground in toxic caves.  its just silly and lame how she turns out to be super friendly and everythings happy and huggy and wuggy and good.

[Golden Owl]

Thrombin wrote...

I played full Renegade as one of my play throughs because I wanted to see the other side of the game but, while some of the interrupts and dialogue were fun and refreshing, the overall feel left me with a sour taste in my mouth. I really disliked Renegade Shepard and the Bring Down the Sky mission was one of the most depressing moments of the whole thing. I had to struggle to bring myself to continue with the character at all after that. I can understand people wanting to play the bad guy but I can't understand people defending Renegade as actually being the best way to be.

Each to their own, I guess, but I have to say I'm a bit shocked at all the anti-Paragon sentiment. I think that's a bit sad, personally

Welcome to the ME forums....unfortunately there are some people who take it very personally as to how you choose to play your own game in the privacy of your own home.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 09 mai 2011 - 01:58 .

[Clonedzero]

Thrombin wrote...

I played full Renegade as one of my play throughs because I wanted to see the other side of the game but, while some of the interrupts and dialogue were fun and refreshing, the overall feel left me with a sour taste in my mouth. I really disliked Renegade Shepard and the Bring Down the Sky mission was one of the most depressing moments of the whole thing. I had to struggle to bring myself to continue with the character at all after that. I can understand people wanting to play the bad guy but I can't understand people defending Renegade as actually being the best way to be.

Each to their own, I guess, but I have to say I'm a bit shocked at all the anti-Paragon sentiment. I think that's a bit sad, personally

no, im not anti-paragon at all. hell im 80% paragon i most of my playthroughs as well. i'd just like more interesting consquences for playing paragon.

im pro-interesting writing. thus unforeseen consquences to doing paragon actions which so far have turned out wonderful with no meaningful exceptions.

also, i dont think pure renegade or pure paragon is the best way to play. i think a mix of them both is. based on each situation. when i play i dont even think in terms of paragon/renegade, i take each situation individually and make my choice based on the context of whats going on in the story.

however from a metagaming perspective it just seems theres no real reason to ever pick renegade choices due to things ALWAYS working out way better for the paragon choice.

[wraith_05]

Things should always work out better for Paragon. I will laugh if they do in ME3.

[Thrombin]

Clonedzero wrote...
however from a metagaming perspective it just seems theres no real reason to ever pick renegade choices due to things ALWAYS working out way better for the paragon choice.

Not Always. The interrogation scene during Thane's loyalty mission takes ages using Paragon choices. Renegade can get to the answers in record time.

A number of Renegade interrupts can bypass a lot of conversation and get right to the action with a minimum of delay.

The Renegade has different priorities but, assuming you subscribe to those priorities, then you are succeeding where the Paragon is failing.

Letting the Council die puts humanity in charge, letting it live just gives them equal billing. From a Renegade point of view, the first option is much better.

In at least two situations (Bring down the Sky and Zaeed's LM) Renegades get the bad guy at the end where the Paragon fails to do so. From a Renegade point of view, that's a win.

I never really felt that you lose out from Renegade choices other than it, personally, made me feel bad!

It's true, though, that playing a mix can be the best of both worlds. I played a run-through where I was mostly Renegade except when dealing with Civilians or Crew when I was Paragon. I think it's called Renegon on the boards? Anyway, I quite liked that Shepard. He was fun.

Modifié par Thrombin, 09 mai 2011 - 02:50 .

[Darius Vir]

Shouldn't the debate about Paragons not "paying" for their choices hold off a little until ME3? Or at least keep in mind that we have one more game to go and, considering that it's the final act, will probably be the point where most consequences really start to come to fruition.

ME2 seemed like a bit of an alternate show from ME1, where you had to go and finish off this new side threat in order to keep the main threat (the Reapers) from gaining an advantage. It seems like NOW- in ME3- is where a lot of those choices from ME1 (as well as ME2 at this point) will hit home.

I expect some of the Paragon choices to have difficult consequences for the player.  Actually, hasn't there been a dev quote about at least one of the Paragon decisions from ME2 having some bad consequences to come? Just don't see THAT much evidence from ME2 to justify the idea that by end game ME3 (specifically) ,Renegades will surely be screwed over and Paragons will be fine.

Modifié par Darius Vir, 09 mai 2011 - 03:10 .

[Seboist]

Thrombin wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...
however from a metagaming perspective it just seems theres no real reason to ever pick renegade choices due to things ALWAYS working out way better for the paragon choice.

Not Always. The interrogation scene during Thane's loyalty mission takes ages using Paragon choices. Renegade can get to the answers in record time.

A number of Renegade interrupts can bypass a lot of conversation and get right to the action with a minimum of delay.

The Renegade has different priorities but, assuming you subscribe to those priorities, then you are succeeding where the Paragon is failing.

Letting the Council die puts humanity in charge, letting it live just gives them equal billing. From a Renegade point of view, the first option is much better.

In at least two situations (Bring down the Sky and Zaeed's LM) Renegades get the bad guy at the end where the Paragon fails to do so. From a Renegade point of view, that's a win.

I never really felt that you lose out from Renegade choices other than it, personally, made me feel bad!

It's true, though, that playing a mix can be the best of both worlds. I played a run-through where I was mostly Renegade except when dealing with Civilians or Crew when I was Paragon. I think it's called Renegon on the boards? Anyway, I quite liked that Shepard. He was fun.

People don't always "let the council die" just to put humanity in charge ya know. I personally feel letting them die is the most logical choice given all the information we have at the moment. Trying to save them while a giant overpowered living ship is about to unleash an invasion that'll doom galactic civilization is just flat out asinine.

I understand the rationale of saving them to maintain galactic stability and what not but not in a situation like that. I would have saved them in another scenario.

[Thrombin]

Seboist wrote...
People don't always "let the council die" just to put humanity in charge ya know. I personally feel letting them die is the most logical choice given all the information we have at the moment. Trying to save them while a giant overpowered living ship is about to unleash an invasion that'll doom galactic civilization is just flat out asinine.

Wouldn't trying to save the most powerful ship in known space also be logical when faced with an imminent invasion?

Obviously it was caught by surprise and couldn't manouver well enough to be the force it might otherwise have been but it didn't seem like any other ship in the vicinity had a hope of taking out a Reaper apart from the Normandy with its double-sized main gun.

Taking the long view, that Dreadnought could be more useful than the human ships that were lost defending it.

I think Renegade priorities were to preserve human lives over alien lives. The logic of what's best for the battle could be argued either way.

Regards

Julian

[Seboist]

Thrombin wrote...

Seboist wrote...
People don't always "let the council die" just to put humanity in charge ya know. I personally feel letting them die is the most logical choice given all the information we have at the moment. Trying to save them while a giant overpowered living ship is about to unleash an invasion that'll doom galactic civilization is just flat out asinine.

Wouldn't trying to save the most powerful ship in known space also be logical when faced with an imminent invasion?

Obviously it was caught by surprise and couldn't manouver well enough to be the force it might otherwise have been but it didn't seem like any other ship in the vicinity had a hope of taking out a Reaper apart from the Normandy with its double-sized main gun.

Taking the long view, that Dreadnought could be more useful than the human ships that were lost defending it.

I think Renegade priorities were to preserve human lives over alien lives. The logic of what's best for the battle could be argued either way.

Regards

Julian

The Citadel fleet was nearly completely destroyed and the Destiny Ascension was dead in the water. Any combat potential it could have in the future would be for nought if Sovereign was succesful.

Besides,the fact it was being used as a personal transport for the Council and seemingly did next to nothing during the battle doesn't leave me with much concern for it.

[AK404]

The Council decision always boggled my mind because the results of the Renegade option make no sense. You let three politicians die, you'd expect them to be replaced well within two years: there might be some problems with the asari, but salarians live for 40 years while turians have get a century.

Instead, humanity completely takes over the Citadel. How the hell do you explain that sort of coup?

Also, I'm going to be fairly miffed if Legion turns on us.

[Thrombin]

Seboist wrote...

The Citadel fleet was nearly completely destroyed and the Destiny Ascension was dead in the water. Any combat potential it could have in the future would be for nought if Sovereign was succesful.

Besides,the fact it was being used as a personal transport for the Council and seemingly did next to nothing during the battle doesn't leave me with much concern for it.

Fair enough but I don't think the decision is as cut-and-dried as to suggest that it is asinine to save the Ascension. For all Shepard knew, the Ascension's gun could have been the only weapon capable of taking out the Reaper at all. Certainly it didn't seem like any of the alliance ships lost in saving the Ascension were of much  help taking out Harbinger.

The Council use the dreadnought for transport because it's the toughest ship around so its the safest place to be. But I suspect that a dreadnought needs more room to manouver than a smaller ship and it was not on a war footing at the time of the attack so it probably needed a lot of time to fire the main gun up and would also have found it hard to hit something moving so close to it particularly if it wanted to avoid hitting its own fleet or the Citadel.

I wouldn't be surprised to see it proving its worth in ME3, though.

I'm not saying the Renegade decision was wrong, I'm just saying that the Paragon decision wasn't as stupid as you suggest.

Regards

Julian

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Paragons having negative consequences for their actions?!?!

I believe Bioware has dismissed this claim.

[Clonedzero]

i still dont understand why the council doesnt have some plan if the council dies. like vice-council members or something.

[Herakleia]

The thing about Renegade choices is that the game is frequently tossing you Renegade interrupts where it makes absolutely no sense to do anything else.

You can toss a Renegade punch at the merc whose squad has guns trained on you. Would Paragon Shep just let them shoot? Does he/she hope to recruit them as allies later? You can take a Renegade potshot at the mouthy Krogan on the balcony. Would Paragon Shep not take advantage of this opportunity? Same way with the frightened salarian worker; you going to let him wave that gun he hardly knows how to work around? You smack him. No other choice.

There are hardly any Paragon interrupts in the same category. Not comfort the grieving mother? Not your job, regardless of your moral outlook. In fact, there are not nearly as many Paragon interrupts at all.

[Undertone]

Seboist wrote...

Thrombin wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...
however from a metagaming perspective it just seems theres no real reason to ever pick renegade choices due to things ALWAYS working out way better for the paragon choice.

Not Always. The interrogation scene during Thane's loyalty mission takes ages using Paragon choices. Renegade can get to the answers in record time.

A number of Renegade interrupts can bypass a lot of conversation and get right to the action with a minimum of delay.

The Renegade has different priorities but, assuming you subscribe to those priorities, then you are succeeding where the Paragon is failing.

Letting the Council die puts humanity in charge, letting it live just gives them equal billing. From a Renegade point of view, the first option is much better.

In at least two situations (Bring down the Sky and Zaeed's LM) Renegades get the bad guy at the end where the Paragon fails to do so. From a Renegade point of view, that's a win.

I never really felt that you lose out from Renegade choices other than it, personally, made me feel bad!

It's true, though, that playing a mix can be the best of both worlds. I played a run-through where I was mostly Renegade except when dealing with Civilians or Crew when I was Paragon. I think it's called Renegon on the boards? Anyway, I quite liked that Shepard. He was fun.

People don't always "let the council die" just to put humanity in charge ya know. I personally feel letting them die is the most logical choice given all the information we have at the moment. Trying to save them while a giant overpowered living ship is about to unleash an invasion that'll doom galactic civilization is just flat out asinine.

I understand the rationale of saving them to maintain galactic stability and what not but not in a situation like that. I would have saved them in another scenario.

That's a point many people can't seem to understand on these forums. I didn't even think anything about human domination when I let the Council die. Unfortunately I was rail-roaded in ME2 about it so eventually I was like "Why the hell not". Plus I find it ludicrious why is it apparently bad to support your own kind.

[Drachasor]

Herakleia wrote...

The thing about Renegade choices is that the game is frequently tossing you Renegade interrupts where it makes absolutely no sense to do anything else.

You can toss a Renegade punch at the merc whose squad has guns trained on you. Would Paragon Shep just let them shoot? Does he/she hope to recruit them as allies later? You can take a Renegade potshot at the mouthy Krogan on the balcony. Would Paragon Shep not take advantage of this opportunity? Same way with the frightened salarian worker; you going to let him wave that gun he hardly knows how to work around? You smack him. No other choice.

There are hardly any Paragon interrupts in the same category. Not comfort the grieving mother? Not your job, regardless of your moral outlook. In fact, there are not nearly as many Paragon interrupts at all.

I certainly took all of those Renegade interrupts in my Paragon game (though I thought I'd just grab the gun from the Salarian rather than punch him in the stomach).  Though there were Renegade interrupts I didn't take.  I DID take every Paragon interrupt I was offered, though you are right that there aren't many.

Undertone wrote...

That's a point many people can't seem
to understand on these forums. I didn't even think anything about human
domination when I let the Council die. Unfortunately I was rail-roaded
in ME2 about it so eventually I was like "Why the hell not". Plus I find
it ludicrious why is it apparently bad to support your own kind.

It isn't bad to support your own kind.  But it is narrowminded and selfish (in a sense) to put the interests of a small group or race above the interests of everyone.

Modifié par Drachasor, 09 mai 2011 - 06:50 .

[Seboist]

Herakleia wrote...

The thing about Renegade choices is that the game is frequently tossing you Renegade interrupts where it makes absolutely no sense to do anything else.

You can toss a Renegade punch at the merc whose squad has guns trained on you. Would Paragon Shep just let them shoot? Does he/she hope to recruit them as allies later? You can take a Renegade potshot at the mouthy Krogan on the balcony. Would Paragon Shep not take advantage of this opportunity? Same way with the frightened salarian worker; you going to let him wave that gun he hardly knows how to work around? You smack him. No other choice.

There are hardly any Paragon interrupts in the same category. Not comfort the grieving mother? Not your job, regardless of your moral outlook. In fact, there are not nearly as many Paragon interrupts at all.

A lot of the Renegade interupts really have me scratching my head like, is there ANY point to letting the Batarian mechanic live or not sniping the Loki mech in Garrus' recruitment mission?