498 réponses à ce sujet

[toggled]

Yes, I think Bioware finds the backlash shocking.

The question is whether or not Bioware will recover from their fumble. Obviously only time will tell. However, it's disturbing that Bioware went on the offensive against its fans. Specifically, I am referring to 2-3 different interviews in which Bioware employees attempted to blame the victims (us, the fans) for not liking their game.

Modifié par toggled, 08 mai 2011 - 01:24 .

[Gotholhorakh]

mopotter wrote...

Personally, I'll be playing DA2 far longer than I played DA:O.

There are things I don't like about DA:2 regarding the story but there were things in DA:O that I hated about the story endings. If I don't like th endings I don't play the game more than a few times. I go back to games like JE, KOTOR, FO 3 and FA NV, Morrowind and Yes I'm shallow.

Yes I would have liked more character choices but as long as they let me chose things like my sex, and what the character looks like and as long as the story is interesting to me I'll buy their games. Whether I pre-order it or not will depend on what I read about it.

Now this part I am surprised by, as I thought the endings were mostly very good in Origins.

That said, DA2's writing has never been the sore point for me, and I rarely see it wheeled out as a gripe about the game, except in the obvious sense that some don't feel it's filled/expanded upon adequately (like the rest of the game), so I can understand being interested in it.

toggled wrote...

Yes, I think Bioware finds the backlash shocking.

The question is whether or not Bioware will recover from their fumble. Obviously only time will tell. However, it's disturbing that Bioware went on the offensive against its fans. Specifically, I am referring to 2-3 different interviews in which Bioware employees attempted to blame the victims (us, the fans) for not liking their game.

Ha, victims. You make it sound like we were sold a Jeffrey Archer book or something. 

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 08 mai 2011 - 01:26 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

DraCZeQQ wrote...

well BI/Troika/Obsidian at least used Bioware logo and acknowledged usage of their engine =)
Well yea APs dialog system (as well as the "use one tone more then others, and it becomes you universal tone" kind of thing), friend/rival system, and the "framed narrative" (when you skip ahead to the future to discuss things that are about to happen) ... except AP did all these things better, as well as the consequences thingy ...

I loved how they handled framed narrative in AP, playing cat and mouse with Leland was really fun for me. Trying to play tightlipped in one playthrough, then triying to BS him without getting caught out in the next. Game within a game, almost. Lol.

Ahh Alpha Protocol... you did some really important things really well and did the rest of it absolutely terribly...

<sigh>

[DraCZeQQ]

mrcrusty wrote...

Ahh Alpha Protocol... you did some really important things really well and did the rest of it absolutely terribly...

What things do you consider done terribly in AP?

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Terrible may be an exaggeration, but it's very flawed.

I wrote in the AP thread in the Off Topic forum...

I was generally unimpressed with most of the gameplay outside of the email and dialog system.

It wasn't very balanced and while the gadgets were nice, they felt sort of tacked on, like you could use them, but there was no real reason to do so. I also felt really let down by the weapon/armor customisation aspect of it. Thought there would be more. I was also disappointed in the level design. I was really hoping for a Deus-Ex type levels with much more freedom over how I could accomplish tasks. Sure, you could tackle problems in more than one way, but for me, it still felt far too linear and too restrictive.

Imo, if they balanced the weapons and playstyles better, fixed the issues with AI, added more for customisation in armors + weapons and opened up levels like Deus Ex to truly provide multiple ways to solve problems for multiple skillsets and reward creativity. Man for me, AP could've been a Game of the Decade contender.

Because it's plot, writing, characters, deviating narrative, etc is hard to weigh against it's relatively mediocre gameplay elements and level design. It's half an excellent game, and half a mediocre game.

Anyways back on topic, I wouldn't say Bioware was stunned by the fan backlash or even surprised at it. The thing (imo), that would surprise them is the consistency/longevity of fan complaints about Dragon Age 2 as well as the lack of impact it had on expanding the audience. It failed miserably at that.

IMO, they had expected to anger a decent amount of the RPG niche fanbase, but they had expected the anger to die down and be overwhelmed by a newer fanbase who loved the game ala Mass Effect 2. It didn't happen.

So, that would surprise them. But stunned, or the "couldn't have seen coming" type of thought I think is not true.

[JaegerBane]

mopotter wrote...

Personally, I'll be playing DA2 far longer than I played DA:O.

There are things I don't like about DA:2 regarding the story but there were things in DA:O that I hated about the story endings. If I don't like th endings I don't play the game more than a few times. I go back to games like JE, KOTOR, FO 3 and FA NV, Morrowind and Yes I'm shallow.

Yes I would have liked more character choices but as long as they let me chose things like my sex, and what the character looks like and as long as the story is interesting to me I'll buy their games. Whether I pre-order it or not will depend on what I read about it.

I have to admit that I'm with Gothol on this one - I don't really understand how you can like the endings to stuff like Morrowind and KOTOR but not like the ending of DA:O, let alone prefer DA2's type of ending. Morrowind and KOTOR's endings were very similar to DA:O's, while DA2's ending was both very different and pretty poor as RPG endings go (with Hawke effectively doing little more than fighting for his life).

[JaegerBane]

mrcrusty wrote...
IMO, they had expected to anger a decent amount of the RPG niche fanbase, but they had expected the anger to die down and be overwhelmed by a newer fanbase who loved the game ala Mass Effect 2. It didn't happen.

This is a very good point. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it came to light that the DA2 team watched the ME2 reception and thought 'hey, let's just change everything we want - the fans might get a bit annoyed but they'll eventually come around, and in the mean time, we'll have produced an awesome game'.

The problem is, the ME2 team seemed to know precisely what made ME1 such an enjoyable game, and hence stuck with what worked and improved what didn't. They didn't do it perfectly and there was the odd screw-up but by and large, they aced the changeover to the sequel. From what we've seen of DA2, the team presumably felt certain stuff was less important than it actually was and somehow got the idea that the players wanted a load of 'improvements' in areas that worked just fine.

I mean, stuff like the Qunari and Darkspawn re-designs.... did the development team honestly think stuff like that was worth changing more than designing a greater variety of environments? Seriously?

[veramis]

A better word than stunned would be overwhelmed. Kind of like those worms with baby faces in awakening would overwhelm your characters. And they have been game-overed about 40 times at the same spot, can't progress further.

[daemon1129]

BioWare are not made of idiots. How can they even expect DA2 to be a bigger success than DAO both financial and public opinions wise. The game was clearly not to the level of DAO, it was obvious had lot less production value in it, it was clear the direction they are taking will most certainly be hated by old fans. The list goes on. I am really starting to believe DA2 is just a quick money grab to fund their other projects, or possibly DA3 too. ME3 is bringing back more RPG elements if they could, and I think that is a smart move. DA3 can do the same.

[abaris]

daemon1129 wrote...

 ME3 is bringing back more RPG elements if they could, and I think that is a smart move. DA3 can do the same.

You're sure about that? I haven't got the link right now, but there's an interview with an EA general floating around, telling us, they're looking for the larger market opportunities there too.

[Merced652]

abaris wrote...

daemon1129 wrote...

 ME3 is bringing back more RPG elements if they could, and I think that is a smart move. DA3 can do the same.

You're sure about that? I haven't got the link right now, but there's an interview with an EA general floating around, telling us, they're looking for the larger market opportunities there too.

At this point so far as we can tell the two aren't directly contradicting each other. The only rpg element i've read are making a return to ME3 are weapon augmentations and customization. Something that was a staple of MW1's multiplayer. 

[Shadowbanner]

daemon1129 wrote...

BioWare are not made of idiots. How can they even expect DA2 to be a bigger success than DAO both financial and public opinions wise. The game was clearly not to the level of DAO, it was obvious had lot less production value in it, it was clear the direction they are taking will most certainly be hated by old fans. The list goes on. I am really starting to believe DA2 is just a quick money grab to fund their other projects, or possibly DA3 too. ME3 is bringing back more RPG elements if they could, and I think that is a smart move. DA3 can do the same.

Enriching ME3 with RPG elements is an excellent idea, back to its roots, back to to ME1.

ME2 wasn't a bad game, in fact, I would rate it as 8,5 or 9/10. But it wasn't on par with ME1 storywise (a 10/10 despite some glaring flaws). In fact the story was pretty weak compared to ME1.

The streamlining ME2 did was, for the most part, good and redunded in better gameplay (removed clunky in-game inventory, removal of tedious mako missions, removal of re-used environments in side quests, removal of lift time that masked loading time etc). I think the DA2 team tried to do something similar and failed.

I hope for DA3 they assimilate what gamers like and go back to DA:O type of game, even if Laidlaw has to swallow his pride regarding his comment they would not do an 180 degrees turn again.

Modifié par Shadowbanner, 08 mai 2011 - 03:33 .

[Shadowbanner]

abaris wrote...

daemon1129 wrote...

 ME3 is bringing back more RPG elements if they could, and I think that is a smart move. DA3 can do the same.

You're sure about that? I haven't got the link right now, but there's an interview with an EA general floating around, telling us, they're looking for the larger market opportunities there too.

Yes it kinda contradicts itself. Casey Hudson in an interview for Gameinformer said as much two weeks ago.

[daemon1129]

Shadowbanner wrote...

daemon1129 wrote...

BioWare are not made of idiots. How can they even expect DA2 to be a bigger success than DAO both financial and public opinions wise. The game was clearly not to the level of DAO, it was obvious had lot less production value in it, it was clear the direction they are taking will most certainly be hated by old fans. The list goes on. I am really starting to believe DA2 is just a quick money grab to fund their other projects, or possibly DA3 too. ME3 is bringing back more RPG elements if they could, and I think that is a smart move. DA3 can do the same.

Enriching ME3 with RPG elements is an excellent idea, back to its roots, back to to ME1.

ME2 wasn't a bad game, in fact, I would rate it as 8,5 or 9/10. But it wasn't on par with ME1 storywise (a 10/10 despite some glaring flaws). In fact the story was pretty weak compared to ME1.

The streamlining ME2 did was, for the most part, good and redunded in better gameplay (removed clunky in-game inventory, removal of tedious mako missions, removal of re-used environemnts in side quests, lift time etc). I think the DA2 team tried to do something similar and failed.

I hope for DA3 they assimilate what gamers like and go back to DA:O type of game, even if Laidlaw has to swallow his pride regarding his comment they would not do an 180 degrees turn again.

I think I read about them bringing the RPG back from the ME forums, under confirmed features or someting.  The Devs said they would love to bring them back, but only if they could...I really hope this isn't some way to trick us into pre-ordering the game. 

[Shadowbanner]

It's here.

The first interview.  4:20 mins

Modifié par Shadowbanner, 08 mai 2011 - 03:48 .

[abaris]

daemon1129 wrote...

I think I read about them bringing the RPG back from the ME forums, under confirmed features or someting.  The Devs said they would love to bring them back, but only if they could...I really hope this isn't some way to trick us into pre-ordering the game. 

You should really look that EA interview up. I don't know in which thread it was, but that guy said something along the lines that pushing back the release date was due to make ME3 appeal to "larger market opportunities". In plain English that probably says simplifying. His conclusion was "Shooter meets RPG". And when an EA guy says something like that, my inbuilt alarms start ringing.

[element eater]

yes probably i dont see how they could have expected the reaction they got, at least not on this scale

as to me3 there ansers probably differ depending on who they're talking to. My impression is that both rpg and shooter aspects will be improved since ME2, but rpg elements still wont be done as they were in me1.

Modifié par element eater, 08 mai 2011 - 06:08 .

[Shibby Razel]

if anything after all the backlashing and not so hawt reviews......my hopes are most definitely up for Dragon Age 3!!

[Slayer299]

abaris wrote...

daemon1129 wrote...

 ME3 is bringing back more RPG elements if they could, and I think that is a smart move. DA3 can do the same.

You're sure about that? I haven't got the link right now, but there's an interview with an EA general floating around, telling us, they're looking for the larger market opportunities there too.

AActually, yes, we're pretty certain since it was stated by Christina Norman that they are bringing RPG elements back evev if the J. Ritticello the idiot makes it seem completely otherwise.  Hope that helps. 

"I was misrepresented in an article recently, which made it sound like I
wanted to remove RPG elements and stats from combat. What I actually
said was, I wanted RPG progression to have a more meaningful impact on
combat, but that was misrepresented as "cutting rpg stats" we actually
have more stats in me3 that affect combat, and the overall impact of rpg
progress on combat is greater. Anyway sorry for the longish tweet but I
just wanted ot clear that up, and a few people were asking me what was
up!

-Christina Norman, Lead Gameplay Designer of Mass Effect 3
Twitter / @Christina Norman: I was misrepresented in an ...  "

[napushenko]

I hope not. I would absolutely hate to play DA3 with some inovative "save the world from big evil" kind of quest, as it seems that major amount of DA2 haters put lack of quest like that as a major letdown.
Good job Bioware. Please, continue to be brave and make games like this for us who appreciate.

[Altima Darkspells]

Merced652 wrote...

At this point so far as we can tell the two aren't directly contradicting each other. The only rpg element i've read are making a return to ME3 are weapon augmentations and customization. Something that was a staple of MW1's multiplayer. 

It will be relatively easy since, despite what BioWare/EA says, mechanically, ME2 is a shooter.

The reason why I say it would be easy to 'reintroduce' RPG elements into ME2 is that most shooters in the past half decade have had RPG elements to one degree or another.  In short, there's plenty of 'inspiration' lying around to incorporate into ME3.

I could be wrong, of course, but everything I've seen of ME3 and BioWare lately indicated that Shepard's last game could have the subtitle of Genericker Shooter.

[mindbody]

Shadowbanner wrote...

ME2 wasn't a bad game, in fact, I would rate it as 8,5 or 9/10. But it wasn't on par with ME1 storywise (a 10/10 despite some glaring flaws). In fact the story was pretty weak compared to ME1.

I'm only picking on you as an example of what I see all the time, so don't take this personally, but you can't say something was 10/10 with glaring flaws.  It's just not possible. I see this all the time, and I believe it leads to incredibly inflated ratings of everything from video games to movies, etc.  10/10 by definition means perfect on any scale.  It can't be perfect and have flaws.

I see this alot with people who enjoyed DA2.  They'll acknowledge the game's many flaws, and then give it an unreasonably high rating based on how much they enjoyed it.  On a scale of 1-10, 5 is an average.  When you start weighting the scale towards the top end, it becomes increasingly difficult to communicate to others what you mean.

If you want, rate games objectively, then give a second subjective rate for how much you enjoyed it.  Like you might say "ME1's story was great, but had some glaring flaws: 8/10, but I enjoyed it as much as any game's story I've ever played: 10/10."

[neppakyo]

I gave DA:O a 9.0/10 because of its flaws. Probably a bit biased towards my enjoyment of DA:O, and the massive replayability. Realistically I probably should of said 8 or 8.5. With ME2, gave it an 8, cause of flaws again, and taken out RPG elements, but overall I enjoyed it emmensly and had excellent replay value.

DA2.. I originally gave it a 7, because it was a bioware game, then after my 2nd attempted replay, lower that between a 4-6. The bugs and flaws were just too glaring. Also the waves, combat, ninja teleporting, and story plot holes irked me greatly.

[88mphSlayer]

people kinda forget that the level of vitriol over Dragon Age 2 took weeks to build up, starting months before the game came out with general complaints

i think Bioware was getting a sense before DA2 even went gold that there might be issues on the forums, the thing is they probably didn't think the numbers of complaining gamers would be as big as it ended up being

i can't recall a time when Bioware received so much criticism tho, some of it is warrantless like people saying EA is going to do to Bioware like they did to Westwood, that SWTOR is going to bring down Bioware and ME3 is now tainted too, those arguments are really reaching and they probably ignore those

to say that this is all about Dragon Age 2 tho is a lie, after ME2 came out there was enough backlash to notice and it never really went away with people complaining about that game slowly building to its current state - that ME2 is entirely pointless and full of plot holes - and it's almost to a point where those points are at least considered seriously among all mass effect fans on that board - regardless if they agree - that alone is a big deal

anyways it's the internet, and as much as Bioware wanted a forum for feedback they also got more than they bargained for by creating a rift - just enough for people to flame fears and doubt among those that already had fears and doubt - but that's the nature of the internet

[MorrigansLove]

After repeated play-throughs, I also give DA2 a 4 to 5 out of 10.