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Has BioWare been stunned by the fan backlash over DA2?


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#351
Addai

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quote
Im also one of those guys, that thinks the story does not lack "epic",  they implemented it horribly tho. 7 or so 1-2 hour long main quest strains, packed in a multitude of sidequests. I said it allready in another thread, but it ended up giving the story as much direction as a drunken panda on a unicycle. 
quote


(husband)


I actually liked having the quests be more decentralized, rather than more linear.   Linear seems more artificial, is more problematic with getting stuck etc. and just less fun.   But yes the story does hold together better.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 mai 2011 - 02:43 .


#352
erynnar

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neppakyo wrote...

erynnar wrote...

ROFL!!! Yep, I have my rose colored....erm wait no...those were my green ones for touring the Emerald City.  Damn, my rose colored ones are around here somewhere....

Ah well, neckbeard is taken care of by a beauty secret called Nads. And no, that is not nads as in go... LOL!

And I know I talk crazy talk McCrusty. Just ask Sabi and nep, they know  me.



Personally, I blame it on the boobs.


Yep! Damn those mammaries...Image IPB

#353
Cataca

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Addai67 wrote...

Cataca wrote...
Im also one of those guys, that thinks the story does not lack "epic",  they implemented it horribly tho. 7 or so 1-2 hour long main quest strains, packed in a multitude of sidequests. I said it allready in another thread, but it ended up giving the story as much direction as a drunken panda on a unicycle. 



(husband)


I actually liked having the quests be more decentralized, rather than more linear.   Linear seems more artificial, is more problematic with getting stuck etc. and just less fun.   But yes the story does hold together better.


I just dont see the nonlinearity in those quests. The quests in itself were fixed and allready prescirpted predefined events. A railroad to completion, if you will. This might not be obvious at first, but reloading your game will quickly make it apparent, that choices that change outcomes, are not really present. The only real freedom you have is when you accept or hand in quests. I personally, ended up going to each questgiver i could find, and then worked through all quests i had, and ended up stopping time and time again, to figure out what exactly i was doing. I understand this is my fault mainly, but in all previous bioware games, i had a decent overview on what exactly i was doing.

Anyway, this is in no way an attack on your oppinion, i respect it, and understand what you mean, its my own oppinion, not facts. Oh, and fixed your quotes :P

#354
erynnar

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billy the squid wrote...

erynnar wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

Sab, I'd hug you and billy, but it looks odd with myself hugging the monitor. People look at ya funny.

And yes, I to, am sick of that "only happy with the big bad evil" rebuttle, along with the "you're afraid of changes" I actually liked the concept of DA. The concept mind you, not the way they went and did it, also, add the rest of the valid critisims here too. heh.

Sorry for grammar and spelling, too tired!


OKay I want in on the hugging thing! You both rock. And you too McCrusty..though I too think of underwear...:blink:


Ahhh, hugs for everyoneImage IPB. Although I'm slightly worried about being caught hugging the monitor aswell.
"Alex, why are you hugging the monitor?"
"I'm giving some love to people on the internet"
"Riiiight.... Image IPB"walks away
"oops"


ROFL!!! *HUGS*

I have to think they were expecting some backlash, just not the amount?  I don't know.

@boxofletters, yeah I write too, and it sucks and hurts when you get a bad review. But I also try and take what they say (if it isn't just vitriole) if it's constructive and really pay attention. That is why I have tried to do the same on their constructive crit thead and review thread.

#355
Ryllen Laerth Kriel

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Although I was officially "fired" by a Dev on the forums about a year ago, I don't work at Bioware so I can't claim to know the motivations or opinions of any who work there. I am not sure whether it was EA or Bioware that was the driving force behind a few specific design choices made to the DA franchise between DA:O and DA 2. I know the difference between a publishing company and a developer, but there is alot of evidence pointing to EA taking on successful companies which suddenly flounder. That suspicion said, I'm not sure if EA strong-armed the changes or if it was Bioware.

Bioware is never going to admit if they made a terrible game, unless it is ten years down the line, and even probably not then. Doing so would only resort in bad publicity and less money in their pockets leading to pay freezing or firing of employees if financial gains have not been met. I doubt Bioware will ever admit DA 2 was anything other than "different." Now the scary, second possibility which comes to mind is that they honestly do think DA 2 is some sort of shining example of progress in RPGs. I favor more old-school style RPG elements and it is on reason I have enjoyed alot of Bioware games. It does not mean I have a phobia of "change" and if there is a new idea that is actually beneficial, adding a depth of storytelling and/or gameplay then that is great, bring it on.

To me, the PC voiceover didn't take advantage of what it could have been. It forced the main character to be a singular race, limiting player choices and story choices while still managing to form a bubble of inactivity around Hawke. Hawke is no deeper a character than any of the wardens. He/she has family, but those relationships are no deeper or more deeply worked out than any character relationship in Origins. Bethany or Hawke dying in chapter 1 just made me shrug, afterall the player never knew the characters unless playing the game a second time. But what is the point of playing the game a second time when Hawke is always the same?

Other posters have mentioned the dialogue wheel and it's inaccuracies in it's paraphrasing the spoken dialogue was just three ways of saying the same thing. I felt Origins dialogue trees lacked variety sometimes, but DA 2 really went in a far more restrictive direction, reminding me I was playing Bioware's character, not my own. Hawke's decisions do not really seem very important, he/she does not seem to effect the world of Kirkwall. In fact, Hawke seems an indifferent wallflower of a character no matter which version of "yes" (and seldomly "no") you click on in the dialogue wheel. For a game which was advertised using the phrase "Who is the hero of Kirkwall?" in addition to the framed narrative which seems specificly tailored to making the player wonder at this question, the answer is very disappointing.

Hawke seems the most boring character in Kirkwall, and now I have to listen to him/her and play a character which is too specific for me to customize but isn't polished enough to be an interesting set character. It's a terrible half-way approach. If they really wanted a set character, Bioware should of gone for it and made Hawke's first name and personality traits set in stone. It goes against the principles of RPGs I enjoy playing since I want to have a say in who my heros are, but it would of made a much more defined, interesting character instead of this nebulous gray blob which was neither mine nor fully Bioware's.

Okay, this post is getting long so...time to just cram in the other things:

-Changing visual branding of a series on the second title is bad for any genre, regardless of media. That junk would get anyone kicked out of entry level design classes unless the first was an abyssmal failure, which DA:O clearly was not.

-DA:O had alot of trash mobs, alot of people did not like those. DA 2 did not solve the slow combat and repetative combat issues by adding more mobs, speeding up the game and adding rediculous fighting animations with ninja moves for all. This isn't Narruto Age, keep ninjas out of this game please. Either that or make Jade Empire 2 and get it out of your system.

-Making classes more "unique" by restricting item usage, fighting styles and general flexability is the laziest form of making a class unique that there is. If you want to make them special and stand out, try adding more skills for players to mess around with? That is progress and it adds depth to a game.

-Pick a target audience and stick to it. If you make a good game, people from other genres will come and possibly enjoy it. If you make a rushed hybrid of low quality, no one will enjoy it. Resting on your laurels only accomplishes one thing, it makes the laurels wilt. If Bioware wants to keep a good reputation for making polished titles, they need to keep making polished titles.

-If a company is releasing a demo, release said demo before the end of the pre-order period. Doing otherwise suggests that players have to either impluse buy or not recieve a full copy of the game. Which reminds me, what happened to the collector's edition and all it's great bonuses like cloth maps, art books, cards and such? It's like Bioware was too embarassed to even call it a collector's edition since all the content was just DLC items or an insignificant character. Image IPB Come on guys, that just feels lazy.

#356
aries1001

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I'm pretty sure that EA did set the release date for March 2011 to get -ahem- some money in before the close of fiscal year 2010 (which is march 2011 for EA). And in 18 months you can actually make a decent game; it will require that you don't change too much e.g. not decide to change the engine, not decide to change the entire art design to some FFXII final fantasy anime game. If DA2 had been done in the old engine and the art design did not have to be changed, a rather good game could have been made.

If there is not a deadline, people tend to be come lazy (I know this since I'm currently writing a paper for school), or to heap a ton of extra content into the game (or the paper) and lose their focus; Duke Nukem Forever, need I say more...At any rate, this game DNF, now sees the light of day after a dev time of nearly 14 or or maybe more closer to 16 years. I don't know about you, but I do not want my DA and other Bioware games to be released after a dev time of 14-16 years...

#357
Ryllen Laerth Kriel

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Who said Bioware needs to spend 14-16 years on a game?

#358
UBER GEEKZILLA

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the backlash is absolutly pathetic. MOST PEOPLE MADE UP THEIR MIND ABOUT THE GAME LIKE A WEEK AFTER IT WAS ANNOUNCED LAST YEAR. i remeber there were like 5 details on the game and everyone was calling it the worst game ever. furthermore when the game was actully released over 50 0 scores came in 5 hours after the games release with people saying they beat the game IMPOSSIBLE. its full of trolls and idiots. if you go on g4 or vgcharts though the user score is much better

#359
IanPolaris

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UBER GEEKZILLA wrote...

the backlash is absolutly pathetic. MOST PEOPLE MADE UP THEIR MIND ABOUT THE GAME LIKE A WEEK AFTER IT WAS ANNOUNCED LAST YEAR. i remeber there were like 5 details on the game and everyone was calling it the worst game ever. furthermore when the game was actully released over 50 0 scores came in 5 hours after the games release with people saying they beat the game IMPOSSIBLE. its full of trolls and idiots. if you go on g4 or vgcharts though the user score is much better


The sales figure seem to indicate otherwise.  Just saying.

-Polaris

#360
Cataca

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UBER GEEKZILLA wrote...

the backlash is absolutly pathetic. MOST PEOPLE MADE UP THEIR MIND ABOUT THE GAME LIKE A WEEK AFTER IT WAS ANNOUNCED LAST YEAR. i remeber there were like 5 details on the game and everyone was calling it the worst game ever. furthermore when the game was actully released over 50 0 scores came in 5 hours after the games release with people saying they beat the game IMPOSSIBLE. its full of trolls and idiots. if you go on g4 or vgcharts though the user score is much better


Have you read any of those points we are not content with? By the sounds of it, you heavnt and just made up your mind that all critics are just wrong. Before you go around pointing your finger at people, you should take a good look at yourself. 

#361
Tommy6860

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UBER GEEKZILLA wrote...

the backlash is absolutly pathetic. MOST PEOPLE MADE UP THEIR MIND ABOUT THE GAME LIKE A WEEK AFTER IT WAS ANNOUNCED LAST YEAR. i remeber there were like 5 details on the game and everyone was calling it the worst game ever. furthermore when the game was actully released over 50 0 scores came in 5 hours after the games release with people saying they beat the game IMPOSSIBLE. its full of trolls and idiots. if you go on g4 or vgcharts though the user score is much better


That's a pretty wild assumption in my books. If you even bother to read most of the criticisms here, and most are valid, it is obvious by even the most laconic descriptions given on the game, that they had obviously played it. Are there going to be haters, sure there are, but then there are going to be those who represent the that same kind of bias, only diametrically opposed (note perfect 10s given to the game because they are after haters, as an example).

The eyes are not responsible for what the mind reads.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 09 mai 2011 - 11:46 .


#362
Stanley Woo

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I think that people on both sides of the argument are making gross generalizations about the game, and the "other side's" opinions, in an effort to make their side look the most correct. Unlike either side of this discussion, however, BioWare takes into account all the different sides and acknowledges that some people will like what we've done with the game and some will not.

We do not condemn anyone for having or voicing their opinion on our forums, and all constructive feedback is welcome here, so long as it is sincere and not "OMG EAWARE MADE THE WORST GAME EVARZ0RZ!!!!1111!!!" I personally do not believe that Dragon Age II is the worst game ever, nor do I believe it is the best game ever. We can disagree with each other without resorting to name-calling or insults.

#363
neppakyo

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Stanley Woo wrote...

I think that people on both sides of the argument are making gross generalizations about the game, and the "other side's" opinions, in an effort to make their side look the most correct. Unlike either side of this discussion, however, BioWare takes into account all the different sides and acknowledges that some people will like what we've done with the game and some will not.

We do not condemn anyone for having or voicing their opinion on our forums, and all constructive feedback is welcome here, so long as it is sincere and not "OOMG EAWARE MAID TEH WORPST GAIME EVARZ0RZZ!!!!1111!!!LOLZ" I personally do not believe that Dragon Age II is the worst game ever, nor do I believe it is the best game ever. We can disagree with each other without resorting to name-calling or insults.


Fixed it for you Mr Woo, you needed more spelling errors in the bolded quote area :P

I agree with you mainly, personally I think its one of the worst games I've played, technically its soundly programmed, minus the bugs and such thats usual for a game on such a short dev time (especially when you try to re-invent the wheel ;))

I've played worst games yes, but DA2 ranks near the bottom, well I should say its one of the best worst games I've played if that makes sense. hehe

Modifié par neppakyo, 10 mai 2011 - 12:33 .


#364
Tommy6860

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Stanley Woo wrote...

I think that people on both sides of the argument are making gross generalizations about the game, and the "other side's" opinions, in an effort to make their side look the most correct. Unlike either side of this discussion, however, BioWare takes into account all the different sides and acknowledges that some people will like what we've done with the game and some will not.

We do not condemn anyone for having or voicing their opinion on our forums, and all constructive feedback is welcome here, so long as it is sincere and not "OMG EAWARE MADE THE WORST GAME EVARZ0RZ!!!!1111!!!" I personally do not believe that Dragon Age II is the worst game ever, nor do I believe it is the best game ever. We can disagree with each other without resorting to name-calling or insults.


Or "OMG EAWARE MADE THE BEST GAME EVARZ0RZ!!!!1111!!!", is equally applicable in this context. Otherwise, I agree.

#365
erynnar

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UBER GEEKZILLA wrote...

the backlash is absolutly pathetic. MOST PEOPLE MADE UP THEIR MIND ABOUT THE GAME LIKE A WEEK AFTER IT WAS ANNOUNCED LAST YEAR. i remeber there were like 5 details on the game and everyone was calling it the worst game ever. furthermore when the game was actully released over 50 0 scores came in 5 hours after the games release with people saying they beat the game IMPOSSIBLE. its full of trolls and idiots. if you go on g4 or vgcharts though the user score is much better


Okay, as Mr. Woo pointed out (helpfully, and classily, I might add) the name calling is doing no good to your arugments for your point of view, so just drop the troll/4chan stuff and we can debate nicely. And we can agree to disagree.

As to people making up their minds after some posts about the game before it even comes out, Sabriana, who is an old pro at the forums said it happens with every game; DAO included in that reaction by the way.  The interesting thing she pointed out was that while people 'made up their minds' and called DAO the worst game, not a true BG build, not a <insert hyperbole here> and that it was going to fail, most people came around and stopped posting those kinds of things. 

I personally, didn't read the forums or leaks, or spoilers except to know that it was going to be different, and a different story (which I was excited about) and that it would still be appealing to DAO fans.  That was all I needed to know. I didn't come on the forum making up my mind before the game had even had a demo (which I played).  

The opposite seems to be happening with DA2. Yes the same old same old of OMG ITS GONNA BE THE WORST GAME EVAH!!!! All based on a few spoilered tid bits or hints happened, like it always does. But the game came out, and instead of coming around, a lot more spoke of their disappointment (me included).

Like Mr. Woo, I dont' think it's the worst game ever, nor the best I have ever played either. It really is just meh for me. I am hoping that I am seen as a reasonable, and funny, and responsible person. I have put my crits and my reviews in the appropriate places and I like coming here and debating with my friends. I have many people who thought it was just grand, and we talk to each other. I have lively debates, and I support them, wholeheartedly. I will defend them if needs be too. I have no problem if someone enjoys the game. In fact, that makes me very happy indeed.

Psst, thanks Mr. Woo, I hope I am not too forward in giving you a virtual hug...*HUGS and runs away*:blush:

Modifié par erynnar, 10 mai 2011 - 12:38 .


#366
Cataca

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Stanley Woo wrote...

I think that people on both sides of the argument are making gross generalizations about the game, and the "other side's" opinions, in an effort to make their side look the most correct. Unlike either side of this discussion, however, BioWare takes into account all the different sides and acknowledges that some people will like what we've done with the game and some will not.

We do not condemn anyone for having or voicing their opinion on our forums, and all constructive feedback is welcome here, so long as it is sincere and not "OMG EAWARE MADE THE WORST GAME EVARZ0RZ!!!!1111!!!" I personally do not believe that Dragon Age II is the worst game ever, nor do I believe it is the best game ever. We can disagree with each other without resorting to name-calling or insults.


Sure, i agree that both sides are faulty of some hyperbole and gross generalizations. There are just some things that were implemented in the game that did not make any sense to me. Things, that in general were in no need of change, and design decisions that outright broke the lore that you yourself established.  This may come through as nitpicking, but we are after all speaking of something still striving to be an RPG, immersion is important. 

Its not like i have sleepless nights over DA2, i played finished and then uninstalled it, its mediocre in my oppinion. And im far from a hardcore RPG fan, most of the games i played are RPGs, but there have been countless shooters, rts and so on mixed in there. I dont dislike action games either. Its just that i personally feel, that the game was put together with little care and total emphasis on the action.

#367
Valcutio

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Stanley Woo wrote...
 I personally do not believe that Dragon Age II is the worst game ever, nor do I believe it is the best game ever.


What about the second worst game ever?

I'll give you ET. Image IPB

#368
XX55XX

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The fan backlash happened because BioWare moved so far away from the elements that made Origins so critically successful amongst the fans.

My greatest gripe about the game remains the narrative and how it was presented. There didn't seem to be much of an end goal. There was no demon to slay, no evil lord to kill, nothing to bind the characters of this game together and instill a sense of camaraderie and attachment.

Additionally, while BioWare tried to bill this narrative as a "personal story," it didn't feel very personal at all. Hawke's relationships with his family and even his companions were scattered at best. I didn't feel moved when Bethany or Carver died in the Deep Roads. I killed Anders without hesitation. Perhaps, in the interest of time, a lot of content was cut, but if that is the case, then I would have preferred to play a ten hour game full of character development instead of a thirty-hour one where such moments are more spread out and more difficult to assess as a whole.

In short, I didn't feel much of an attachment to any of the characters. I didn't understand why they kept following Hawke, why they liked him, or even why they bothered to join up with Hawke at all. In Origins, people joined with you because they wanted to help you defeat the Archdemon. In DA2, with the exception of Varric and your sibling, most of the people just hung out with you because they thought you were "interesting," but the game doesn't expand on that any further. Companions are just dumped on you with little rationale, and as a result, I found it very hard for me to give a crap about them.

In short, the lack of a goal to bind companion characters to Hawke more strongly was Dragon Age 2's greatest flaw for me. Given the excellence of Origins, I find it difficult to comprehend how BioWare put out a game with such a lackluster story and even more lackluster characters.

Modifié par XX55XX, 10 mai 2011 - 01:34 .


#369
neppakyo

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XX55XX wrote...

Additionally, while BioWare tried to bill this narrative as a "personal story," it didn't feel very personal at all. Hawke's relationships with his family and even his companions were scattered at best. I didn't feel moved when Bethany or Carver died in the Deep Roads. I killed Anders without hesitation. Perhaps, in the interest of time, a lot of content was cut, but if that is the case, then I would have preferred to play a ten hour game full of character development instead of a thirty-hour one where such moments are more spread out and more difficult to assess as a whole.


To the personal story part.

Hawke wasn't the main character in DA2. It was Varric and Anders, BW just gave ya hawke so he could gob off his handsome friend while the story of Varric and Anders played out. To put it more bluntly; hawke was a time filler inbetween all the cut scenes.

How it felt to me anyways :D

#370
lobi

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Cataca wrote...
Im also one of those guys, that thinks the story does not lack "epic",  they implemented it horribly tho. 7 or so 1-2 hour long main quest strains, packed in a multitude of sidequests. I said it allready in another thread, but it ended up giving the story as much direction as a drunken panda on a unicycle. 


wait... you saw a drunken panda on a unicycle? THATS AWESOMEImage IPB

#371
devSin

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Stanley Woo wrote...

I think that people on both sides of the argument are making gross generalizations about the game, and the "other side's" opinions, in an effort to make their side look the most correct. Unlike either side of this discussion, however, BioWare takes into account all the different sides and acknowledges that some people will like what we've done with the game and some will not.

I don't see that so much. All I see is people saying bad stuff about the game and people saying bad stuff about people who are saying bad stuff about the game (and then people saying bad stuff about the game saying bad stuff about people saying bad stuff about them). I don't see much of anybody saying anything good about the game.

I think there are good things to be said about the game, but everybody seems to be too busy bickering. And for the love of god shut up already about the stupid Witcher.

Stanley Woo wrote...

We do not condemn anyone for having or voicing their opinion on our forums, and all constructive feedback is welcome here, so long as it is sincere and not "OMG EAWARE MADE THE WORST GAME EVARZ0RZ!!!!1111!!!" I personally do not believe that Dragon Age II is the worst game ever, nor do I believe it is the best game ever. We can disagree with each other without resorting to name-calling or insults.

I think you're guilty here of doing the same thing everybody else is. Nobody is really saying it's the worst game ever made? There are a lot of people saying it's the worst BioWare-labeled game they've ever played (and are vocal that they don't like it at all).

Now that's still not useful feedback for the team, but I think they're mostly sincere that they hate your game.

#372
neppakyo

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devSin wrote...

I think there are good things to be said about the game, but everybody seems to be too busy bickering. And for the love of god shut up already about the stupid Witcher.


So I hear The Witcher is comming out soon.

*runs away giggling*

#373
marshalleck

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I still haven't completed a single playthrough of the first Witcher game. I can't wait to see the reception of Witcher 2; it's so hyped at this point by gamers that it's going to be a pretty dramatic event regardless of whether that reception is positive or negative, moreso than even DA2 I think.

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 mai 2011 - 02:53 .


#374
neppakyo

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marshalleck wrote...

I still haven't completed a single playthrough of the first Witcher game. I can't wait to see the reception of Witcher 2; it's so hyped at this point by gamers that it's going to be a pretty dramatic event regardless of whether that reception is positive or negative, moreso than even DA2 I think.


I have, and quite liked it. Now mind you I lost my saves for it *sigh* So I'll probably go with the dev generic choices.

#375
erynnar

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neppakyo wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

I still haven't completed a single playthrough of the first Witcher game. I can't wait to see the reception of Witcher 2; it's so hyped at this point by gamers that it's going to be a pretty dramatic event regardless of whether that reception is positive or negative, moreso than even DA2 I think.


I have, and quite liked it. Now mind you I lost my saves for it *sigh* So I'll probably go with the dev generic choices.


I was just watching a preview of the enviornments on the Witcher 2. Beautiful interactive world. Small town in it more full of life than Kirkwall's big city.

I wonder if backlash of the fans coupled with Witcher's reception will give BioWare pause. And I mean that in a completely neutral way (no biting me, well much. I might like it).